Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Mr Micawber, I know all of the information which you listed, but my point was not that he was innocent, it was that compared to Demandred destroying cities and their occupants because he thought they slighted him, and Graendal murdering children after she added their parents to her 'collections,' all the stuff Ishy did doesn't seem so bad. He was following orders. When he fought Lews Therin, he was doing what he thought was right.

 

You could compare it to US troops in Afghanistan or Iraq training indigenous police forces. I'd be willing to bet some of those trainees were dead set against the US in 2001, but here they are. LTT was a general and he understands that people believe in different things. Guys fight, and are friends afterwards, as it is a thing of the past.

 

Also,Ishamael's speech was an ideal which he believed in, and he is the only one of the Chosen we can say threw his lot in because of his beliefs, not because of desire or jealousy or envy or whatever. LTT knows this, and if the man were to decide he had been wrong, I think he would be an incredible asset, and one the forces of light could use.

 

As far as what he has done personally to LTT, I can't see him holding it against him, for reasons involving the greater good which would come of it if he didn't. It seems like Rand has finally achieved the true oneness, and he is balanced with the pattern and with all the lives he has ever lived. He has great intelligence, knowledge, and experience which he can now draw upon, and a personal 3000 year old grudge does not stand up as a good enough reason.

 

Yes, all the other stuff is dark and evil, but you also have to remember Ishmael's background as a philosopher. He is bloody brilliant, and the Dragon's chances would increase markedly with him as an ally. If anyone could reason out the methodology for what needs to be done, it is the two of them.

 

I am not saying this is a definite, just a possibility, as I really do believe he is reconsidering his choices, and where he is going, and it would be an extremely Jordan-esque move to work this into the story.

[clu7ch]

So the seanchan have Elaida now? Well.........

We really honestly don't know what kinds of knowledge they have of channeling, Who knows if they really care to tap they're slaves' minds or not, other than 'fireball this, lightning bolt that, shield him, shield her, etc' but like, now they know what the lead Aes Sedai knows. All the secrets, including the new Traveling gift, and balefire (i assume only, as Moiraine knew of it, I theorize that Siuane knew of it and passed the information along, as they were close friends in the good ole days.)

 

So we can potentially have seanchan everywhere now.

[Mr. Micawber]

No, I agree with you.

 

I think there's a better chance of Elan Morin defecting than probably anyone else (the one exception would be Demandred if Elan Morin kills Rand - or seems to kill Rand. Barid Bel would snap and go crazy on his ass).

 

I just think that narratively speaking, any defection of his will come in the form of his own death, like Ingtar.

 

Moreover, he seems to wish more than anything else for the Dark One's victory because that's the only way he thinks the Wheel will stop.

 

But if it looks like Rand can *beat* the Big Guy, then Elan Morin may think that it's worth dying to aid him in this, since he knows that this death of his will be final, because the cycle will finally end, just with the end of the Dark One rather than the unraveling of existence.

 

EDIT:

 

Plus, as Verin points out, the unifying characteristic of the Dark One's followers is selfishness. Elan Morin is the only one who does not fit that mould, since he's acting because he really believes that destruction ought to be sought out.

 

This is why I've always found Elan Morin flawed. Not in a bad way, per se, but in the supposedly "insane and crazy evil" way. He's not. His conversation with Rand - particularly when Rand says that it was his logic that destroyed him  brings to mind this:

 

It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now

 

 

It's not directly parallel, but the idea that Elan Morin was a brilliant, perhaps too brilliant, man who lost his way very much resembles this.

 

What's funny, of course, is that the Big Guy might know the danger of this. He might very well know that Elan Morin is too smart for his own good.

 

Which brings us to that line from over a decade ago in LOC

 

WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS?

 

I rather like to think that the Big Guy *always* has a back up plan.

[lohan231]

I am disappointed that the Black Tower wasnt mentioned AT ALL in the whole book! its kinda ridiculous, i wanna see the black tower overthrow those pompous Aes Sedai!

[algspkr]

I think Graendal died. Rand's plan isn't something she would have seen coming. All of the Forsaken KNOW that he's not using Balefire or hurting/killing women (Elza is spying so that's 1 source of many). He balefires the entire place. Completely unexpected. I think she ate it because she got over confident. Just as she got over confident with others already (Sammael).

When did she get over confident with Sammael?

[algspkr]

Here's something I have been thinking since reading some of your thoughts on Graendal. I don't think she's dead either. Something Moridin said in the Prologue about her causing Rand "pain of heart" makes me think we haven't seen the last of her. That would be her way, too: hitting Rand through someone like Elayne, Min, or Aviendha (my money is on Min) to cause him pain of heart.

 

Unless I'm misinterpreting this.

Her whole plan could have been to cause him "pain of heart" by letting him destroy what was essentially a palace full of innocents.  She could have set up a black sister there and taught her compulsion and told her to compel any messenger from Rand.

 

It would not surprise me that she expected Rand to recover as she has commented on his luck.

[algspkr]

She's incredibly smart but yet she mishandled Sammael just a few books ago. So no, she's not omnipotent. She would have had no reason to expect events to transpire how they did let alone had the ability to plan for such things to occur.

 

 

When did she mishandle Sammael?

 

She knew they had orders not to kill Rand and feared that that meant that Rand would be named na'blis.  She did not want Rand, or Sammael for that matter to have a position over her and so she manipulated Sammael into fighting Rand insuring that either Rand would kill Sammael, or that Sammael would kill Rand which would hurt his chances of becoming na'blis, if not his chances of continuing to breath.

[algspkr]

maybe this issue will be even bigger than the asmodean mystery lol...

Na, Asmodean isn't done yet, and this can only go on for another 2 (please please please let it be 2 or less) to 6 years.

[algspkr]

No, it is not possible to hide thread titles from appearing on the main forums.  Please be patient (book has been only out for 1 day after all), and hopefully those rules will be relaxed soon.  But for now, we must use what we have, which is these threads.

Then could you add a few more threads which are somewhat less general than these with titles which are not too descriptive, like "Graendal"

[anotherfingolfin]

i think destroying the CK was a lame, albeit necessary (for plot progression) event. i think it was supposed to be symbolic of him turning away from the path he was on, and frankly because it was a bit of a deus ex machina, without which the story will be better served. nevertheless, destroying your greatest weapon is idiotic, IMHO.

 

also, do you think Rand will turn back into an all-round nice guy now, or just a shade darker than he was? (i hope the second). also, as much as Cads will take credit- and she is probably due SOME- i really hope it doesn't happen.

 

Tam with Cads was great.

 

sorry if this has all been discussed to death, but that's the problem with jumping into an all-encompassing thread that is over 60 pages long.

[Trutino]

I found Rand's seemingly random visit to Altara toward the end of the book interesting. He noted that people seemed happy, like they didn't know that the Last Battle was even coming. Does this mean that they aren't having problems with the pattern like non-Seanchan territories are? Is this due to order/lack of chaos? The Seanchan seem to have things running very smoothly. If, say, some Seanchan were brought in to deal with some of the chaotic cities, maybe that city in Arad Doman, could the disruptions in the pattern, rotting, etc. be halted or even reversed? After seeing this, might he actually kneel to Fortuona for the sake of the pattern? There's always that sticking point with the channeling women but Fortuona can likely channel herself...

[algspkr]

I agree on the Moridin coming back to the light.  He of all the Forsaken seems to care little for the earthly interests of the DO... he delegates all of the work to the chosen and focuses entirely on Rand making it to the last battle.  In the dream scene in this book he pretty much states that he does not care if the DO wins because he knows this battle will be fought time and time again.  As a philosopher he sees no end to this conflict besides the DO taking over and the pattern itself ending.  He also knows that th glory and power promised to the DO's followers is a lie because there will be no existence in which to give glory or power.

 

This seems like the same negative attitude Rand has on Dragonmount before he changes his mind.  This makes me think that the same could happen to Moridin.  

 

I don't think Ishy was ever completely insane... he just knew far more than everyone else.

Is there any mention of this earlier in the series, I've been sure that it was true long before TGS, I'm just not sure why.

[algspkr]

Alright, I have had some earth shattering thoughts on some of the prophecies after this book, so here goes...

 

Rand -- "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

Aelfinn -- "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

I think we are looking at this the completely wrong way. The north and the east must be as one. This would be Saldea, Kandor, Arafel, Shienar, Tar Valon, Cairhein and Tear. The west and the south must be as one. This would be Arad Doman, Tarabon, Amadicia, Murandy and Illian. I am not sure which of the above, Andor fits in. THIS IS FORESHADOWED IN TGS! The two must be as one, I think this is where we make the biggest mistake. The two (Rand and Elan Morin) must be as one. If you would live, you must die. I have not yet thought of a good single answer to this thought there are many good theories, the body swap being my favorite. It never says the two are the lands. I think the two are Rand/Elan because of the following.

 

"Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm, wearer of a crown of swords, spinner-out of fate. Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time, may learn the truth too late." - From a fragmentary translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon, attributed to Lord Mangore Kiramin, Sword-bard of Aramaelle and Warder to Caraighan Maconar, into what was then called the vulgar tongue (circa 300 AB).

Ishamael thinks Rand turns the Wheel of Time. He needs to know differently before things are over. If they were as one, this would be accomplished.

 

 

OTHER PROPHECIES

He "shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf." He "shall bind the nine moons to serve him." He will heal "wounds of madness and cutting of hope." What chains has he broken, and who put into chains?

1) Something to come with Callandor?

 

I would say that this has more to do with revealing the Aiel's history to them.

 

2) Yet to be fulfilled. He will get The Seanchan's assistance.

3) He healed his own wounds of madness and cutting of hope.

4) He will break the chains of the DO and put him back in chains.

 

 

"And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand nor abide...

The destruction of the CK. Once more RJ left us hints in Rand wondering why the CK was never prophecied about. It is right here. What men made will be shattered. I think the second part of this section will be fulfilled in AMoL.

 

I believe that this refers to the seals on the Dark One's prison.

 

"Prophecy says when the Stone of Tear falls, we will leave the Three-fold Land at last. It says we will be changed, and find again what was ours, and was lost."

This has not happened yet in my opinion. I think we will see the Stone of Tear destroyed in the coming books. The Aiel will go to a different world perhaps with the Ogier who are not of this world either and the Nym. The Aiel will then find the song again. The Three-fold Land is this world, not the waste itself.

 

The Aiel are human and of this world, I highly doubt that they will leave.  We do see strong evidence in TGS that they will change the nature of the existence and stay in the wetlands though.

 

And the Nym were constructs, basically living ter'angreal.

[algspkr]

I don't get it why Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal when he could have leveled the Blight that was teeming with Trollocs, Fades, and other shadowspawn.  If I was in his shoes, I would have leveled the Blight and the Trolloc armies and then destroy the Choedan Kal.

 

Because he realized it was too powerful.

 

(And, it was prophesied that he must do so, but he didn't realize that.)

What prophecy was that?

[algspkr]

Uh, Beren.

 

"Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time" is referring to Rand.

Read the prologue to TGS again. Elan Morin aka Ishy aka Moridin thinks that Rand (the Dragon) turns the Wheel of Time.

 

Also note the words used. "Who" does not necessarily mean the dragon. It could mean someone else. "He" means the Dragon as that is who this prophecy is about.

 

Could you provide a quote please.

[algspkr]

So the seanchan have Elaida now? Well.........

We really honestly don't know what kinds of knowledge they have of channeling, Who knows if they really care to tap they're slaves' minds or not, other than 'fireball this, lightning bolt that, shield him, shield her, etc' but like, now they know what the lead Aes Sedai knows. All the secrets, including the new Traveling gift, and balefire (i assume only, as Moiraine knew of it, I theorize that Siuane knew of it and passed the information along, as they were close friends in the good ole days.)

 

So we can potentially have seanchan everywhere now.

 

When they are explaining the attack plan to Tuon one of the reasons listed was to gain Traveling.  On top of which Toun taught her own damanae Healing from an Aes Sedai.

[Luckers]

No, it is not possible to hide thread titles from appearing on the main forums.  Please be patient (book has been only out for 1 day after all), and hopefully those rules will be relaxed soon.  But for now, we must use what we have, which is these threads.

Then could you add a few more threads which are somewhat less general than these with titles which are not too descriptive, like "Graendal"

 

Yes. Due to various reasons they won't be up tonight, but they are coming soon.

[ThatGuy]

Hi everyone, first time poster here.  I think Sanderson has done a really good job.  A couple characters felt a little off to begin with, and I think RJ might have handled the Rand situation with a little bit more subtlety, but top job all in all.

 

Regarding the Graendal-Alive theory - it definitely seems very farfetched to me.  You're overestimating Graendal and underestimating CrazyRand.  From what I understand, the theory seems to be that Graendal placed Ramshalan under a Compulsion weave set to dissipate once delved, then travelled away immediately.  For starters, we don't even know if it's even possible for a weave to dissipate on Delving like that.  I'll accept it might be possible, sure.  But you're saying Graendal was certain Rand was going to attempt to kill her with balefire and confirm it via the absence of Compulsion.  There's no other reason she would set the Compulsion to dissipate upon Delving.  This is completely preposterous in my view.  Also, one more thing:  Nynaeve states that "he's [Ramshalan]under a heavy Compulsion."  Now it's been quoted earlier in this book: "Graendal nearly reached out with a weave of Compulsion to seize the boy for herself.  However, she restrained herself.  Once a man had known that level of Compulsion, there was no way to recover him."  Now if we study Ramshalan after the Compulsion weave is gone, he appears completely rational, if a little emotional.  Logically the only way he could be in this state is if the Compulsion had never been (balefire).  Now I'm sure someone will come up with ways to rebut these arguments, but if the best you can come up with is 'Graendal is too smart' then I think I'm just going to continue assuming she's dead.

[algspkr]

No, it is not possible to hide thread titles from appearing on the main forums.  Please be patient (book has been only out for 1 day after all), and hopefully those rules will be relaxed soon.  But for now, we must use what we have, which is these threads.

Then could you add a few more threads which are somewhat less general than these with titles which are not too descriptive, like "Graendal"

 

Yes. Due to various reasons they won't be up tonight, but they are coming soon.

Thank you :)

[Mr.Big]

More hot spoilers:

1.Rand gets so sick of Elayne,he lets Lews Therin take over his mind and body  when he has to be with her or just talk to her

2.Min has a viewing of G.R.R.M. finishing aDwD in 2012(this is after her vision of the world ending,just like the Mayan calendar predicted)

3.If the U.S. cover is any indication,then Rand is suffering from Dwarfism

4.If Brandon's sales don't do well enough,he'll be replaced by Goodkind,since he's been basically writing Wheel of Time for Dummies for years.

5.Faile yells at Perrin a-lot

6.Mat learns how to make cherry-bombs-no latrine is safe

more to come...

[sheikh chilli]

I don't get it why Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal when he could have leveled the Blight that was teeming with Trollocs, Fades, and other shadowspawn.  If I was in his shoes, I would have leveled the Blight and the Trolloc armies and then destroy the Choedan Kal.

 

Because he realized it was too powerful.

 

(And, it was prophesied that he must do so, but he didn't realize that.)

 

I think the problem is that BS realized that the continued use of Choedan Kal would be a poor plot device and is actually a story/plot killer.  Why continue the plot when you have the one item that can destroy the Shadow in one swift stroke.  I think BS was struggling to put an end to Choedan Kal.  I think it would have been better if BS made it a conflict of choices to use the Choedan Kal: Use it to destroy the shadow but destroy the world or yourself to damnation for eternity or lose it and use your limited means to defeat the Shadow at great cost.  I don't think that the ending was really a conflict of choices that would allow to put Choedan Kal to rest gracefully.

 

The argument that "Choedan Kal is just too powerful" is just too simplistic at best.  There needs to be more depth to why Choedan Kal should be destroyed even before the Last Battle.

 

 

 

 

exactly. this whole chodean kal was destroyed because it was too powerful is just a load of trash frankly. a poor excuse to explain why the light took out one of its aces in the hole. it seems alot of posters are trying to hard to convince themselves over the necessity of it's destruction

 

 

i guess robert jordan/ sanderson had to destroy the kal because frankly having the kal in the hands of rand would render the shadow completely useless. i guess it was a way to bring a level playing field. because we all know no matter how many dreadlords, trollocs or soldiers the dark one brings up in the last battle, a whiff of the kal under rand all will be destroyed within a second.

 

 

that would be a cheap and quick last battle. hence the complete destruction of the kal. the female half was destroyed and the male half is gnone now. now it seems callandor is the lat remaining sangreal enough to do some major damage.

[sheikh chilli]

Sheikh chilli ar eyou serious?

 

Did you even see what the power of the CK was doing to Rand?

 

Did you think about the fact that Rand left the Domani to starve when all their food spoiled?

 

Rand won a great victory as did Egwene, but it was not the war and they are still down in the count.

 

There is still a time where Perrin must be there or something terrible will happen to Rand.

 

Rand still does not know how to seal the DO away for good though he is getting some clues now.

 

Mazrim Taim and the Black Tower are doing who knows what in Rand's absence and we have yet to see that resolved. Remember that they have many many more channelers than the WT so if even 75% of them go over to the DO, willingly or unwillingly, Rand's forces are in serious trouble.

 

Rand has still not made peace with the Seanchan and with the recent attack on the WT it seems less and less likely.

 

I will say this much, I think the DO's forces are not in as great a position as they had been at the start of the book, but they have not been hit as hard as they could have. Ishy's false prophecies are still believed by the Seanchan for one thing. We STILL have not seen Demandred and he has said that his rule is secure and they will be read. The Aiel are at odds with Rand over the way he has been treating them though they are still following him. Over half of the BA escaped. There were close to 200 and I believe the book said about 110 escaped. Mesaana is almost certainly still in the tower. Graendal may not be dead. Rand has touched the TP thus opening him to its addiction. He won't work with the Sea Folk, instead making demands of them. Rand told Nynaeve he was basically abandoning Lan and using him as a distraction. I think the Light is in almost as bad a position as it was at the start of the book, but there is hope now. At the start of this book hope was almost gone. It was nonexistent about halfway through the book. The WT is whole, yes, but Mesaana is sure to do something. Rand just destroyed the CK, but I would not be surprised to see a showdown with some male channelers after he used that much Saidin. I mean, that had to be visible to any male channeler across Randland.

 

 

the kal was just a sangreal. it does not corrupt. otherwise every single angreal and sangreal ought to turn every channeler crazy. the kal accomplished one of the blows to dark one. it cleansed saidin. it was precious weapon and the most powerful in randland. and rand destroys it. foolish but understandable from an author point of you. you need to level the playing field and destroying the light's greatest weapon certainly accomplished that. at least the shadow can compete for a change

 

 

as for the current state of things. you can keep the hunger, food spoiling and other irrelevant thinsg. when i finsihed TGS the shadow lost 2 forsaken, lost the black ajah machinations, white tower reunited and more importantly lost the corrupting influence in rand al thor.

 

 

their only sole consolation is that the kal has been destroyed and even that was done by rand not the shadow. which begs the question.  how many of the dark one's plans are going to unravel before the last battle begins?

[Owners.Inc]

Sheikh chilli ar eyou serious?

 

Did you even see what the power of the CK was doing to Rand?

 

Did you think about the fact that Rand left the Domani to starve when all their food spoiled?

 

Rand won a great victory as did Egwene, but it was not the war and they are still down in the count.

 

There is still a time where Perrin must be there or something terrible will happen to Rand.

 

Rand still does not know how to seal the DO away for good though he is getting some clues now.

 

Mazrim Taim and the Black Tower are doing who knows what in Rand's absence and we have yet to see that resolved. Remember that they have many many more channelers than the WT so if even 75% of them go over to the DO, willingly or unwillingly, Rand's forces are in serious trouble.

 

Rand has still not made peace with the Seanchan and with the recent attack on the WT it seems less and less likely.

 

I will say this much, I think the DO's forces are not in as great a position as they had been at the start of the book, but they have not been hit as hard as they could have. Ishy's false prophecies are still believed by the Seanchan for one thing. We STILL have not seen Demandred and he has said that his rule is secure and they will be read. The Aiel are at odds with Rand over the way he has been treating them though they are still following him. Over half of the BA escaped. There were close to 200 and I believe the book said about 110 escaped. Mesaana is almost certainly still in the tower. Graendal may not be dead. Rand has touched the TP thus opening him to its addiction. He won't work with the Sea Folk, instead making demands of them. Rand told Nynaeve he was basically abandoning Lan and using him as a distraction. I think the Light is in almost as bad a position as it was at the start of the book, but there is hope now. At the start of this book hope was almost gone. It was nonexistent about halfway through the book. The WT is whole, yes, but Mesaana is sure to do something. Rand just destroyed the CK, but I would not be surprised to see a showdown with some male channelers after he used that much Saidin. I mean, that had to be visible to any male channeler across Randland.

 

 

the kal was just a sangreal. it does not corrupt. otherwise every single angreal and sangreal ought to turn every channeler crazy. the kal accomplished one of the blows to dark one. it cleansed saidin. it was precious weapon and the most powerful in randland. and rand destroys it. foolish but understandable from an author point of you. you need to level the playing field and destroying the light's greatest weapon certainly accomplished that. at least the shadow can compete for a change

 

 

as for the current state of things. you can keep the hunger, food spoiling and other irrelevant thinsg. when i finsihed TGS the shadow lost 2 forsaken, lost the black ajah machinations, white tower reunited and more importantly lost the corrupting influence in rand al thor.

 

 

their only sole consolation is that the kal has been destroyed and even that was done by rand not the shadow. which begs the question.  how many of the dark one's plans are going to unravel before the last battle begins?

 

agreed. though i'm willing to take this as the opening blows of TG. but yeah. good book, but DO is losing hard.

[Luckers]

Sheikh can you please keep your responses in one comment. If you think up new things modify your original post.

[WATCHER]

HELP! I heard somewhere that Aviendha sees someone in the Waste. I haven't found anything in the book to back that up. I read where so going to the Waste, just not being in the Waste. Where is it?