Why Not Gentle While Young

[rygar]

One thing I never understood - why doesn't world culture simply try and gentle every man possible, just on the chance he can channel.  I mean, the whole world fears men channelers but does absolutely nothing about it except wait for them to go mad, destroy a village, and hope and pray the AS come and save the day.

 

I think it much more plausible if they had a system of either trying to gentle every male.  It wouldn't hurt the non-channelers and probably wouldn't kill the ones who do.  How could there be a feeling of such loss when the man has no experience with the OP?  THey would live and be happy for the rest of their lives.

 

If it a case of resources, you could even make a case that most/all men would do this willingly to save their lives and each major city could have a system set up to save themselves from themselves.

 

 

[Arkelias]

Who would perform the gentling?  To do that for every male in the world would require more Aes Sedai than currently exist =X

[mb]

The Red Ajah was trying to gentle every man.  And their eyes-and-ears reported men who could channel.

Gentling while the men young, there was not enough people to find every men in time.

 

Once they find out that saidin is clean, it seems that they would stop gentling men.

 

[Luckers]

That would require systematic access to the general population, which the Aes Sedai essentially ruled out with their decision to wait on girls to approach them. With that decision their numbers were too limited, and they were too centralized for what your suggesting.

[Mashiara Sedai]

While I agree that the Aes Sedai just don't have the resources to do as you suggest, rygar, I also agree that the young gentled men would no doubt life long happy lives.  If they lost the abilty to channel before they even knew about it, they would loose nothing.  They could be free from that seductive power, never having tasted it.

 

I often wondered if they would have gentled Rand at the end of Eye of the World, if he would still start craving saidin.  After he touched it the first time, he kind of wanted to be gentled; well, he didn't want to channel anymore, its almost the same thing.

 

 

~Mashiara

[42Bonzo88]

    The problem I'm seeing is since we have never known a man gentled when young we can't know of long term problems. All we know of gentled men (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is they lose the will to live and just fade away. What if that still happened? You have teenager that has grown up 'normally' and approximately around his 18-21st birthday, all of a sudden has lost the vitality of his person and either wastes away or does something worse.

 

    This might sound cruel or wrong and again correct my knowledge, but I think the Aiel has the best solution to men who can channel. That's for them to go to the Blight. If they are warriors already, they can at least go out with the honor of a warrior by attempting to defeat the shadow.

[Luckers]

We gotta remember too that the Aes Sedai (especially those actually seeking men who can channel) suffer from the belief that this is a well deserved punishment for men's pride. Before the Aes Sedai would have even been willing to go to such efforts they'd need to be re-educated on the value of men who can channel.

[42Bonzo88]

    Here Here, Luckers! If it is gentling that has caused the stagnation of people channeling then the men shouldn't be gentled, or something else should have been thought of.

[rygar]

That is a good point Luckers

 

Still - every single person fears men OP users to death.  It is the single worst thing you could be accused of, even worse than a dark friend.  It's so bad, there isn't similar stigma in today's society.  Rapist?  No.  Child Abuser, No.  Terrorist?  I don't think so.

 

It just seems some effort could be made to make a difference.  Heck, even the Aiel, Sea Folk, and Sanchen have better ways to deal with men channelers.  Maybe this is just another failing of the WT.

[Luckers]

It is a bit. But the White Tower was trying to avoid their own blame in the Breaking. They have reason to be blind on the subject of male channelers.

[42Bonzo88]

    Exactly rygar. The thing that we may be forgetting, (including myself) is we have the comfort of looking back over the years. Of course, if the White Tower knew that they would be lessening thier numbers, they might have looked for another way. But at the time, with the whole world in upheaval, they found a way to correct the problem. Those women I can understand and sympathize with, they were saving as much of thier world as they could. The later Red Ajah could have tried to come up with a different way, maybe they did and we just don't know about it, but with thier attitudes concerning men I doubt it.

[Jemlin]

I didn't think you could gentle someone who had not yet established a connection with the source.

 

From my understanding, there is the potential (whether it will manifest itself, or can be trained), but that doesn't mean the bridge has been built.  That has to either be taught or attempted......until then, I don't see how there would be something they can actually gentle.

[Elgee]

There might also have been some edict against that. The Aes Sedai know that the Dragon Reborn will come along eventually, and would need to be able to channel at the Last Battle. Surely a few of them way back when would have had the sense to think: oh heck - we can't go around gentling ALL men who can channel, in case one of them happens to be the DR.  So let's make a law that they can only be gentled if they start channeling AND there have been no portents that the DR has been reborn.

[42Bonzo88]

    Thank you Elgee for your post because it brings up something I've been wondering about. Not all false dragons were able to channel. Is there anywhere in the prophecies that says the Dragon Reborn has to channel?

 

Just wondering

[Mr. Micawber]

There might also have been some edict against that. The Aes Sedai know that the Dragon Reborn will come along eventually, and would need to be able to channel at the Last Battle. Surely a few of them way back when would have had the sense to think: oh heck - we can't go around gentling ALL men who can channel, in case one of them happens to be the DR.  So let's make a law that they can only be gentled if they start channeling AND there have been no portents that the DR has been reborn.

 

There is an edict. RJ said that the reason the Vileness was *illegal* and the reason every man to be gentled was required to be taken to Tar Valon is that the AS checked that he wasn't the Dragon Reborn before they carried out the deed.

[bmunge]

I didn't think you could gentle someone who had not yet established a connection with the source.

 

From my understanding, there is the potential (whether it will manifest itself, or can be trained), but that doesn't mean the bridge has been built.  That has to either be taught or attempted......until then, I don't see how there would be something they can actually gentle.

 

This. I don't believe you can gentle boys who haven't developed their connection yet.

[mb]

Is there anywhere in the prophecies that says the Dragon Reborn has to channel?

That he would wield Callandor might be one indicator.

Healing of the wounds of madness and cutting of hope; that might be another indicator.

That he is reborn of Lews Therin might be another; yet not all Lews Therin's rebirths were channelers.

This sentence might also be an indicator:

He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow.

(Crown of Swords Header)

 

These two phrases might be others:

Master of the lightnings

rider on the storm

(Crown of Swords Footer)

 

Got a number of these from this page:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/karaethon.html

 

[42Bonzo88]

    Thanks, mb but as vague as the prophecies are sometimes, that still doesn't mean he has to channel. He could be a leader with followers who can channel.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

How the hell can he fight the dark one without being able to use the power??

 

And do you have a quote saying some of Lews Therin's previous incarnations didnt have the ability to channel? Because i cant find reference to that.

[42Bonzo88]

    There again, Jaric, with prophecies being as vague as they sometimes are and knowing that some false dragons didn't channel, leads us to believe that he might not have to channel. Lets say for instance that in TGH, Moiraine and Siuan decide to gentle Rand. The DO is there for Tarmon Gaidon and Rand and he fights at Shayoul Gouhl. Rand bleeds and there is the prophecy for blood on the rocks of Shayoul Gouhl.

 

    Lets say Rand burns himself out and can no longer channel. He is the leader of hundreds of Ashaman and Dedicated. They can channel for him.

[Mr Ares]

How the hell can he fight the dark one without being able to use the power??

Well, consider that Shai'tan is a god, and will almost certainly be far stronger than Rand. Channeling might not be what Rand has to do to seal the Bore.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

I agree with you that his channeling may not be what seals the bore, but i always thought he would have to at least fight him with the power somehow. Asmodean basically made it obvious that Rand will need the Choedan Kal to fight the dark one, and while this certainly will not be the entirety of the last battle, i think it will be a part of it. After all, Shai'tan IS the True Power: he IS ALL of it. When anyone (only Moridin now, but that may change) uses it, they are using the dark one. So when Rand has to face him, he will face a being with the equivalent of the entirety of the True Source at his beck and call. I just cant see him not having to take him on with saidin.

 

As to your point of the asha'man, i think the next two books will show us the majority of those left at the black tower are darkfriends, and the asha'man who are loyal to rand will be tied up fighting them come tarmon gai'don, so they cannot do his channeling for him.

[richnewton82]

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[Mablir Dorlig]

Some people have already mentioned Aes Sedai resources (or lack off) and then add in the fact that in all probability the number of times that this would need to be done. While Saidin/Saidar are different there are also similarities with Seanchan testing women every year over a period of yeras (mentioned in several books) and the Aes Sedai now testing women older than previously thought possible - also due to the taint there would have been the possibility of a male chaneller becoming aware of their ability between visits of the Aes Sedai and legging it rather than having something "cut out" of them