Min, Elayne, or Aviendha?

[Wingendosering]

Lmao well done Hallow.  Elayne and Avi fans, post away!  What made you choose one of them over Min?

 

I've got this thing about redheads.

  :-*

 

Agree.

 

Who doesn't?  However, doesn't Elayne have Red-gold hair?  (Whatever the hell that's supposed to be)  I could picture it, but I have a feeling I'm way off the mark.

[Red Hand Man]

Lmao well done Hallow.  Elayne and Avi fans, post away!  What made you choose one of them over Min?

 

I've got this thing about redheads.

  :-*

 

Agree.

 

Who doesn't?  However, doesn't Elayne have Red-gold hair?  (Whatever the hell that's supposed to be)  I could picture it, but I have a feeling I'm way off the mark.

 

I would think that means strawberry blonde.

[Mr Ares]

Plus compulsion doesn't work when someone is already holding the power.

Only for saidin. People holding saidar can still be compelled.

[Nightstrike]

I voted Elayne. I could have voted Min, but I would place Aviendha at a definite 3:rd place. Her Aiel customs are a bit too violent for my taste. But I guess she might turn out to be good for Rand anyway.

 

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

I voted Elayne. I could have voted Min, but I would place Aviendha at a definite 3:rd place. Her Aiel customs are a bit too violent for my taste. But I guess she might turn out to be good for Rand anyway.

 

 

This is one of the other things I like about her. She really is a warrior, and not the kind of female fighter who is always cocky, confident and casual about absolutely everything. I like the way she actually prefers beating people to reasoning with them, I feel that it not only shows exactly how hard the Maidens can be yet it also sheds a light on Aviendhas development. Any other Maiden would have beaten someone because its easier, Aviendha is taking it upon herself to change in order to fit in with Elaynes culture.

[Nimic]

I am genuinely baffled by how anyone can call Elayne mature, let alone the most mature of the bunch. She's blatantly immature, and it's incredibly annoying after a while. Some things about her just really annoy me. Like how fiercely indignant she got when it was suggested that Rand would "hand" her the Lion Throne. Oh, I'm sorry, he just single-handedly killed the Forsaken that was ruling your nation and that rumor had it had just killed your mother. Show some bloody gratitude.

 

Also, she makes me rant. Hag.

[crazyfool]

I am genuinely baffled by how anyone can call Elayne mature, let alone the most mature of the bunch. She's blatantly immature, and it's incredibly annoying after a while. Some things about her just really annoy me. Like how fiercely indignant she got when it was suggested that Rand would "hand" her the Lion Throne. Oh, I'm sorry, he just single-handedly killed the Forsaken that was ruling your nation and that rumor had it had just killed your mother. Show some bloody gratitude.

 

Also, she makes me rant. Hag.

 

Amen

[dwn]

I am genuinely baffled by how anyone can call Elayne mature, let alone the most mature of the bunch. She's blatantly immature, and it's incredibly annoying after a while. Some things about her just really annoy me. Like how fiercely indignant she got when it was suggested that Rand would "hand" her the Lion Throne. Oh, I'm sorry, he just single-handedly killed the Forsaken that was ruling your nation and that rumor had it had just killed your mother. Show some bloody gratitude.

 

I wouldn't say Elayne has fully matured yet, but she has been become more so over the course of the books, particularly since ACOS. She made the Aes Sedai acknowledge her authority, she adequately administered Caemlyn during the siege, and she deftly handled her political foes and secured her place as Queen of Andor. In contrast, both Min and Aviendha, for all they started out more mature, have stagnated (granted, they're secondary characters).

 

If Elayne had accepted the Rose Crown from Rand she would have been, at best, seen as a puppet queen. He should have known that, given the political savvy he displayed in Tear and Cairhien. That implies he either intended Elayne be his subordinate, or didn't care that she'd appear so. Either way, he both insulted her, and seriously undermined her position with the Andoran houses.

 

-- dwn

 

[WWWwombat]

Rand's disregard for semantics helped turn what should have been an easy peazy claiming of the Lion Throne into a fullblown war of succession and he should have seen it coming.  Elayne had a right to be frustrated.  If you want a better example of a lack of gratitude, pick Mat's reception in the Stone of Tear.  He was treated like crap by all of the supergirls.  Once prompted by Aviendha and Birgitte, however, Elayne realized her mistake and apologized, and she didn't grouse about it like Nynaeve.  Elayne will swallow her pride and admit when she is wrong because she is mature.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Plus compulsion doesn't work when someone is already holding the power.

Only for saidin. People holding saidar can still be compelled.

 

Ahh. Thank you for the correction sir.

[dwn]

Plus compulsion doesn't work when someone is already holding the power.

Only for saidin. People holding saidar can still be compelled.

 

Could you point to something to support this?

 

Regarding the Warder Bond, the only case I can think of is Logain compelling Tovene just after bonding her, but she was shielded at the time.

 

For regular Compulsion, only Graendal compelling Moghedien and Cyndane in TPOD, 'New Alliances' comes to mind. Moghedien was certainly holding saidar beforehand, but...

 

"She had spun the nets strong, for anger's sake, nearly strong enough to do harm, and the women stood staring at her adoringly, eyes wide and mouths hanging open in adulation, intoxicated with worship. They were hers to command, now. If she told them to cut their own throats, they would. Suddenly Graendal realized that Moghedien was no longer embracing the Source. This much Compulsion might have shocked her into letting go. The servants by the door had not moved, of course."

 

This implies that Graendal knew her Compulsion would work despite Moghedien holding saidar, but it doesn't seem conclusive.

 

-- dwn

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

Plus compulsion doesn't work when someone is already holding the power.

Only for saidin. People holding saidar can still be compelled.

 

Could you point to something to support this?

 

Regarding the Warder Bond, the only case I can think of is Logain compelling Tovene just after bonding her, but she was shielded at the time.

 

For regular Compulsion, only Graendal compelling Moghedien and Cyndane in TPOD, 'New Alliances' comes to mind. Moghedien was certainly holding saidar beforehand, but...

 

"She had spun the nets strong, for anger's sake, nearly strong enough to do harm, and the women stood staring at her adoringly, eyes wide and mouths hanging open in adulation, intoxicated with worship. They were hers to command, now. If she told them to cut their own throats, they would. Suddenly Graendal realized that Moghedien was no longer embracing the Source. This much Compulsion might have shocked her into letting go. The servants by the door had not moved, of course."

 

This implies that Graendal knew her Compulsion would work despite Moghedien holding saidar, but it doesn't seem conclusive.

 

-- dwn

 

 

I know that the proof that men holding Saidin can't be compelled comes from when Alanna bonded Rand and she shortly thereafter tells Verin that she tried to Compel him but was unsuccesfull. Or at least that's the most substantiated bit of proof. I'm sure there are other examples.

[Mr Ares]

Plus compulsion doesn't work when someone is already holding the power.

Only for saidin. People holding saidar can still be compelled.

Could you point to something to support this?

Like Graendal compelling Moghedien while holding the Power, or Moghedien trying to compel Nynaeve (she cut the weave, but still felt the effects)?

 

I know that the proof that men holding Saidin can't be compelled comes from when Alanna bonded Rand and she shortly thereafter tells Verin that she tried to Compel him but was unsuccesfull. Or at least that's the most substantiated bit of proof. I'm sure there are other examples.

Actually, the best proof comes in LoC 6, where Sammael thinks that Graendal's tricks wouldn't work on a man holding the Source.

[Ted M]

Min.

 

Rand has people who challenge him.  Rand has plenty of people who will do what he tells them.  Rand has exactly one person who's supportive and doesn't either have an agenda of their own or divided loyalties (Avi/Wise Ones, Elayne/Aes Sedai, Andor).  Min is the only person who he can say is there only for him, and therefore is really the only one he can trust.  From what I'm seeing, she's the only thing keeping any part of Rand from going so far over the edge that he can't be brought back. 

[dwn]

Only for saidin. People holding saidar can still be compelled.

 

[snip]

 

Like Graendal compelling Moghedien while holding the Power, or Moghedien trying to compel Nynaeve (she cut the weave, but still felt the effects)?

 

Yes, that is the scene I quoted above.

 

Actually, the best proof comes in LoC 6, where Sammael thinks that Graendal's tricks wouldn't work on a man holding the Source.

 

I used to take the scene with Sammael as proof that holding saidin (or touching the Source in general) protected you from Compulsion, but after rereading it, I'm no longer convinced. The pertinent passage from LOC, 6 is:

 

"She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that she could wield the weaker forms of it with great delicacy, twisting a mind's path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss every trace of her. In fact, she might have been the best at that who ever lived.

 

"He let the gateway vanish but held on to saidin; those tricks did not work on someone wrapped in the Source."

 

Sammael does not make an explicit male/female distinction here, though that is just semantics and hardly conclusive. I would suggest, however, that the 'tricks' he refers to are the subtle forms of Compulsion meant to manipulate rather than control. Therefore touching the Source does not necessarily protect against heavy Compulsion (just as it didn't protect Moghedien). Regardless of any magical protection, it makes sense that the concentration required to channel, and the increased alertness doing so bestows, would make a channeller harder to sway.

 

In all fairness, it's feasible that the surrendering needed to touch saidar could make one more open to Compulsion, whereas the fighting needed for saidin does the opposite. If that were the case, however, a woman touching saidar should have her strength of will melt away, and I've seen no indication of that.

 

-- dwn

 

[Al Thor93]

Definately Min. She is the least judgemental of all three and I think she has his best interests at heart.

Avienda is too preoccupied with Aiel customs and Elayne is too headstrong.

[Lobododragao]

min... rand is the most human when he is around her.... and she is pretty dern hot. :)

[Ashaman Kovan]

 

 

I know that the proof that men holding Saidin can't be compelled comes from when Alanna bonded Rand and she shortly thereafter tells Verin that she tried to Compel him but was unsuccesfull. Or at least that's the most substantiated bit of proof. I'm sure there are other examples.

Actually, the best proof comes in LoC 6, where Sammael thinks that Graendal's tricks wouldn't work on a man holding the Source.

 

Yeah, I remembered that just as I was going to sleep lol.

The thing with Rand and Alanna was her attempting to compel him through the Warder Bond. Totally seperate thing lol.

[Mr Ares]

I used to take the scene with Sammael as proof that holding saidin (or touching the Source in general) protected you from Compulsion, but after rereading it, I'm no longer convinced.

Well, that is what it says. Coupled with Rand's immunity, and Moggy and Nynaeve lacking that immunity despite holding saidar, it is evident that saidin protect, saidar doesn't.

 

The thing with Rand and Alanna was her attempting to compel him through the Warder Bond. Totally seperate thing lol.

Well, the AS consider it separate. Really, it has all the hallmarks of compulsion. Of course, there's nothing new about AS hypocrisy, is there?

[dwn]

I used to take the scene with Sammael as proof that holding saidin (or touching the Source in general) protected you from Compulsion, but after rereading it, I'm no longer convinced.

Well, that is what it says. Coupled with Rand's immunity, and Moggy and Nynaeve lacking that immunity despite holding saidar, it is evident that saidin protect, saidar doesn't.

 

That is definitely possible, and what I too believed until rereading the passage I quoted.

 

One could also conclude that Sammael was continuing his prior distinction about heavy vs. light Compulsion. The passage is ambiguous in this regard, but it seems a more proper interpretation is that Sammael meant touching the Source protected him from subtle manipulation rather than an 'attack with a hammer.'

 

-- dwn

 

[Mr Ares]

That is definitely possible, and what I too believed until rereading the passage I quoted.

 

One could also conclude that Sammael was continuing his prior distinction about heavy vs. light Compulsion. The passage is ambiguous in this regard, but it seems a more proper interpretation is that Sammael meant touching the Source protected him from subtle manipulation rather than an 'attack with a hammer.'

Sammael alone might be ambiguous. Nynaeve feeling the effects of Compulsion despite holding the Source, and Rand's immunity rule that out.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Please don't ridicule me, but is it possible that when holding the source you can only be compelled by the same half? (I didn't say sex because of Aran'gar, but we all know that is a singular occurrence) i.e. a man would have to compel a man while he is holding saidin, a woman by a woman? Possibly, embracing the source only gives you protection from compulsion from the opposite half of the power...just a thought...I'm sure I'll hear about it if its ridiculous...

[Ashaman Kovan]

Please don't ridicule me, but is it possible that when holding the source you can only be compelled by the same half? (I didn't say sex because of Aran'gar, but we all know that is a singular occurrence) i.e. a man would have to compel a man while he is holding saidin, a woman by a woman? Possibly, embracing the source only gives you protection from compulsion from the opposite half of the power...just a thought...I'm sure I'll hear about it if its ridiculous...

 

I don't think there is really any way to know for sure. So far the evidence we have says it is only a man holding Saidin who is protected from compulsion. Put that together with the way a man gets goosebumps when a woman is channeling, but yet a female doesn't feel anything of Saidin, and you'll realize that some things happen with Saidar and some with Saidin. Some things are just different between men and women.. *shrugs*

 

There's nothing to suggest that a woman has any protection from being Compelled. Other than being able to sever the Flows before they get to them. Or else Compelling the other person before they have a chance to do it to them.

[Mr Ares]

*Prepares to ridicule Jaric Mar Tedronai*

Please don't ridicule me

Damn. *Sulks*

[Blackhoof]

lol.  :)

 

Jaric might be right.... but he might not be.... but he could be... or not.  8)