The Dark One winning impossible?

[WWWwombat]

I wonder if gambler's ruin applies.

[Nightstrike]

I wonder if gambler's ruin applies.

I don't usually speak english, so I don't understand what you mean. What is "gambler's ruin"?

[sheikh chilli]

we all know the dark one fail will fail and fail hard in the end. but man can he at least put up a good fight.

[Mr Ares]

The Wheel attempts balance. The Shadow, Shai'tan in particular, is a destabilising force. Therefore the Wheel attempts to correct, and thus is working against the Shadow. Thus its weaving does happen to coincide to some extent with the goals of the Light - there is a measure of truth in it being on their side. If the good guys were dominant, it may fall to the Wheel to correct this, to drag things towards evil, in which case it would be against the good guys.

[Blackhoof]

I agree. Existence is a pair of balancing scales, the Light and the Creator on one side, the DO and the Shadow on the other, the Wheel is the guy that adjusts the scales and stops one side or the other from unbalancing the scales. At this point the DO is attempting to make himself dominant and unbalance the scales, so the wheel spins out ta'veren and thwarts the Shadow, i believe that if the Light found a way to destroy the DO and the Shadow for good, or otherwise dangerously unbalance the scales, then the wheel would try to correct that, and help the shadow.

[Dunderdan]

I share the theory Blackhoof is presenting here. Thus I also think that the reason DO cant win the way he wants is, that he is part of the system. He'd have to renounce the whole concept of being the DO to do anything substantial. It would be interesting if the DO did the opposite of what he did now, either do good instead or do nothing at all; would THAT create a dangerous imbalance to the wheel? Would it be forced to create a new DO?

 

[msm16]

The Dark One seems to be an immortal being. The turnings of the Wheel are also infinite. This battle is replayed with each turning. From the perspective of an immortal being, the Dark One should have no concerns whatsoever about whether or not he wins this time. If his victory is possible, then eventually over time he will be successful. Rand's battle this time around would be relatively irrelevant.

 

The thing you have to remember is that "Rand" is also immortal. “This war has not lasted ten years, but since the beginning of time. You and I have fought a thousand battles with the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the Shadow is triumphant!” (Ishamael to Lews Therin; The Eye of the World, Prologue) So if the battle is eternal then theoretically the shadow could win at some point, then again it is equally likely that the Dragon shall win for all eternity.

 

Though an interesting thing to note is that at one point a character (i cant remember which one) states that the Tel’aran’rhiod shows all possible worlds, and that in all worlds the bore exists but in all worlds it is still sealed, should the dark one break out in any one then he breaks out in all.

 

A final point on the nature of the dark one, and this is all conjecture based on its actions and how the True Power is described. I believe that the nature of the Dark one is chaos, he bends and disrupts the pattern, whenever the True Power is used it is described as a warping of reality it defies physical laws hence the phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." On the other hand the creator is himself order, personally  I think that the well of time IS the creator, though again this is just my opinion.

[VinedC]

I don't think RJ would be writing a series of books in which it was impossible for the DO to win. I think the intention is that the DO is coming very close to finally overthrowing the established order. RJ described this final 'book' as the good guys being "Up against the rope".

 

From a literary standpoint, and that RJ doesnt want to completely PO the readership, the DO wont win; we need closure. But if it was flatout impossible for the DO to win, there would be no actual drama.

"Sit back, relax, Rand! nothings gonna happen!"

From the whole infinite turnings standpoint, perhaps the odds of the DO winning are not "Zero", but just really really really small, like winning the powerball a few times in a row. The wheel and the forces of good work hard enough to keep the DO at bay age after age.

And like someone else stated, he is not human, and does not think like one. He will not give up, even if he knows the odds are tiny that he finally destroys time (if that is indeed his goal as Ishy believes). In the meantime he will continue to cause chaos and bide his time until he finally wins.

[Mablir Dorlig]

In Lord of Chaos "Threads woven of Shadow" Sammael thinks

 

Ishmael had said that it had happened in the past, the creators champion made a creature of the shadow and raised up as the Shadow's champion.

 

Rand can be turned and Sammael is afraid that Rand may be Naeb'lis - a nice end to the story?

 

 

 

 

[Lord Lego 436]

Technically, the Dark One CAN win this time around. In THE GREAT HUNT, Ba'alzamon says:

"That battle will soon end. The Last Battle is coming. The last, Lews Therin.

...And this time the cycle will not begin anew with your death."

THE GREAT HUNT, page 243.

This means that Once the Last Battle will be fought, either the Wheel will be broken, or the Dark One will die, forever.

[Bob T Dwarf]

In answer to the two posts above:

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Question: Ishamael mentions in prior Turnings of the Wheel that the soul of Lews Therin was raised up as the Shadow's champion, and if that is the case, who was the champion of the Creator?

Jordan: You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c'mon!

 

Why should we be as silly as Sam and believe anything Ishy says?

 

 

 

[Blackhoof]

The guys crazy, for sure, but it is true that he attempted to turn Rand to his side, and that the battle has been replayed numerous times, so we should believe some of the things ishy says, because he is a character and the author doesn't make him say things so that we can dismiss them as crazy talk. Also it is possible that RJ said that to mislead or otherwise confuse us.

 

The light in general strives for balance, while the Shadow wants imbalance, so it is part of the natural order of things for the Shadow to come up, lose, and come up again. I have a theory... what if the DO knows that him winning would result in catastrophic imbalance that would destroy existence, and him and the big C with it? What if his only goal as the DO is to cause havoc with these uprisings to keep the balance. He only tells his followers that he wants to remake the wheel so that they follow him, because, lets face it, your not going to fight for someone who you know is going to lose.

 

Or i could be wrong and Ishy could be right, and all the past battles have been just like practice, or the wheel has finally realised that they need a last battle, and this is the last battle. With the DO dead or permanently imprisoned. What if the super-computer of the wheel got a virus? and is now going to fail so they need a last battle to stop the DO from escaping while the Wheel stops turning and everything becomes static and doesn't progress through the ages?

 

We may never know....

[orangeblue252]

I think its possible.  Dark One is not an evil being though.  I'm thinking, every cycle of time, the Creator has to ask, is humanity worthy?  How to test humanity's worthiness to exist another cycle of time? That's where the Dark One comes in.

 

Near the end of every cycle, humanity will discover the Bore and unleash the Dark One.  Near the end of this cycle, humanity reached its height of goodness (Age of Legend).  But human's capacity for evil and self-destruction is still there, and the Bore creates the Dark One to bring out the evil part of humanity.

 

And when Tarmon Gai'don comes, the Dragon would be thoroughly imprinted with both good and evil.  And how he reacts in the Final Battle will be the answer to the question - is humanity worthy for another cycle?

 

 

.. I also think, Ishamael understood this when the Bore was created.  He took on the role of evil to help with the Judgement.  And that's why of all the forsaken, he's the only one who understand the Dark One's intention and the nature of the battle of light vs shadow.

 

.. Another note, if this cycle ends with humanity at its most evil (the Dragon would be an evil champion), the Bore would have created a Light One.  And its purpose would be to flood humanity with as much good as possible.  And if an evil Dragon could be turned good for their final battle, humanity would be deemed worthy.

 

That's what I think the nature of the Bore is.  A test for humanity's worthiness in the eye of the Creator.  And should humanity ever fail this test, the Creator would wipe the slate clean, and start over with another beings.

 

[Blackhoof]

Possibly... but your forgetting something, this is not the end of a turning, this is the third age, at the start, pretty much.

[orangeblue252]

Actually, I'm basing a cycle on Herid's interpretation.  There's 4 main points, if I remember.

 

1) start, people just forgetting about the Dark One.

2) people don't remember the dark one.

3) Bore is discovered.

4) Bore is repaired <- we are at the end of this part.

[Agitel]

Actually, I'm basing a cycle on Herid's interpretation.  There's 4 main points, if I remember.

 

1) start, people just forgetting about the Dark One.

2) people don't remember the dark one.

3) Bore is discovered.

4) Bore is repaired <- we are at the end of this part.

 

The wheel has seven spokes. And there's no way Herid could rationalize what happens in the 4-7 ages. He couldn't even go back before the second. He just knows that if the bore was once whole, it will eventually be whole again. He himself admitted that the Bore didn't even need to be made whole again during Rand's time, just that it had to be before the wheel comes back to what was the Age of Legends.

[OptimusPrime]

I dont think we will ever know about the different spokes of the Wheel. I cant believe people put such solid belief in this being the Third Age to be honest. Called the Third Age by people from this age, sure. But people from this age dont know everything do they. Also, the so-called Third Age might not be near the beginning at all. When you think about it, why is it that Rand will most likel;y seal the Bore fully, when Lews Therin didnt? I think this age is more likely the seventh

[Syricon]

Well, the Wheel uses ta'veren and other things as corrective mechanisms. The Creator installed the Wheel. It's like the most advanced computer that can be imagined. It makes choices on behalf of the Light. It works for the Light to maintain the Pattern and the turning of Ages. The DO wants to destroy the Wheel and time itself.

 

 

 

To everyone that thinks the DO wants to end everything, that is not correct.  The DO wants to be completely free so he can re-shape the wheel to his liking.  Everyone stopped using balefire during the AoL specifically because the DO didn’t want to win by destroying everything.  He probably has enough bale-fire capable channelers at his disposal to take apart the entire weave of the pattern any time he wants to.  Its just simply not what he wants.

 

 

I suspect that at times he HAS won, and he recreates the wheel into something to his liking, and imprisons this worlds creator away.  He becomes that worlds “creator” and this world creator becomes that worlds “Dark One”

 

[Leezus]

I think it is; at least in the obvious way.

 

The Dark One seems to be an immortal being. The turnings of the Wheel are also infinite. This battle is replayed with each turning. From the perspective of an immortal being, the Dark One should have no concerns whatsoever about whether or not he wins this time. If his victory is possible, then eventually over time he will be successful. Rand's battle this time around would be relatively irrelevant.

 

Personally, I think the outcome of the Dark One winning is impossible. I think that the Pattern will not allow it. The pattern produces a Dragon, demands a Dragon. It also produces Ta'veren to also fight the war on the Shadow. The Pattern balances this out, in order to prevent the possibility of the DO ever winning.

 

I never thought about it, but you're absolutely right. When the same scenario is played over infinitely, and the only end is when the Dark One wins, then any chance that he could win, no matter how minuscule, means that eventually he will. So, either it's impossible for the DO to win, or it's inevitable. It's logic.

[Blackhoof]

Well, the Wheel uses ta'veren and other things as corrective mechanisms. The Creator installed the Wheel. It's like the most advanced computer that can be imagined. It makes choices on behalf of the Light. It works for the Light to maintain the Pattern and the turning of Ages. The DO wants to destroy the Wheel and time itself.

 

 

 

To everyone that thinks the DO wants to end everything, that is not correct.  The DO wants to be completely free so he can re-shape the wheel to his liking.  Everyone stopped using balefire during the AoL specifically because the DO didn’t want to win by destroying everything.  He probably has enough bale-fire capable channelers at his disposal to take apart the entire weave of the pattern any time he wants to.  Its just simply not what he wants.

 

 

I suspect that at times he HAS won, and he recreates the wheel into something to his liking, and imprisons this worlds creator away.  He becomes that worlds “creator” and this world creator becomes that worlds “Dark One”

 

I agree with you.

 

While were on topic, i think that this is how it would have happened when the DO was sealed into the bore by LTT...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RqMMlp44XA

[Agitel]

I think it is; at least in the obvious way.

 

The Dark One seems to be an immortal being. The turnings of the Wheel are also infinite. This battle is replayed with each turning. From the perspective of an immortal being, the Dark One should have no concerns whatsoever about whether or not he wins this time. If his victory is possible, then eventually over time he will be successful. Rand's battle this time around would be relatively irrelevant.

 

Personally, I think the outcome of the Dark One winning is impossible. I think that the Pattern will not allow it. The pattern produces a Dragon, demands a Dragon. It also produces Ta'veren to also fight the war on the Shadow. The Pattern balances this out, in order to prevent the possibility of the DO ever winning.

 

I never thought about it, but you're absolutely right. When the same scenario is played over infinitely, and the only end is when the Dark One wins, then any chance that he could win, no matter how minuscule, means that eventually he will. So, either it's impossible for the DO to win, or it's inevitable. It's logic.

 

That's what Elan Morin figured.