Why Do None of the Characters Understand Balefire?

[Wingendosering]

Seriously.  One thing that's been bugging me as I reread them is that none of the characters truly think through the whole 'balefire' thing.  Rand could have gotten his hand back no prob by blasting Semirhage (why exactly hasn't he killed her again?) and after toasting Rahvin, you would think Rand would know Morgase was alive and have people looking for her.  He thought Rahvin killed her the day before he arrived in Caemlyn.  After seeing Avi, Asmo, and Mat alive and well, he should have thought of Morgase.

 

Although I'm not sure Nynaeve and Elayne understand Balefire, they could have attached Birgitte to the Pattern again by hitting Moghedien with it...

 

Osan'gar...how many chances did he have to balefire Rand?

 

And side note here...do we actually know how far back balefire can burn the pattern?  Could balefiring a Forsaken well enough actually expel them from the Third Age, for instance?

[Arkelias]

They imply that it could if something like Callandor was used.  The thing is the more you mess with the pattern the more you risk destroying it.  If you were to balefire Moridin, for example, and burn him out of the last couple centuries how would that change the timeline?

 

I completely agree with you about lesser amounts of balefire, though.  Rand saved Mat from the darkhound with it, and then later from Ravhin by using it there too.  You'd think he understood the usefulness.

 

My first reaction upon standing up after being fireballed by Semi would have been to balefire her.  Just a thin stream that would erase the last few minutes.  Bam, your hand is back.

 

Now, I understand that RJ has set Rand up so that he won't harm women.  I get that.  It would have been nice, though, if he'd had Rand's internal monologue show that he knew he could balefire her to get his hand back.  Then we at least see that our characters are smart enough to understand the power they wield.

 

As it stands we're left asking ourselves, "Hey, meathead, using balefire would clearly solve your problem.  Why don't you use it?"

 

Maybe it will be talked about in the Gathering Storm?  I hope so, otherwise this just goes down as one of my top 5 boneheaded moments I hate in the series >:(

[Chaotic222]

Because the characters are told time and time again that balefire is bad.  Even the forsaken are afraid of it.

[Arkelias]

Was it bad when Rand save Mat and Avi's life?  Maybe he shouldn't have done that since Balefire is bad...

[Nimic]

Was it bad when Rand save Mat and Avi's life?  Maybe he shouldn't have done that since Balefire is bad...

 

He didn't balefire Rahvin to get Mat and Aviendha back, he balefired Rahvin because he was fairly angry. Of course, at that point he should have realized what brought them back, but that's something else. I do think he should have balefired her, but then he's got this whole, stupid, "don't hurt/kill women" complex. Removed. Spoilers.

[Balefire to da face!]

The way I see it, balefire is like traveling through the Dream World in person or whatever the hell they did in Shadar Logoth. It's unnatural, it goes against the pattern, and yes it would be better to let someone die then to change it via damaging the pattern. While I agree that one of the three ta'veren dying is something that they should probably change with balefire, but only because we know that Rand will fail without it. Anything other then that....even giving Rand his hand back or saving the life of someone who is not vital to the cause is not something Rand should do. Rand is there to save the pattern from the DO, not **** it up to get do overs on his mistakes.

[Chaotic222]

Was it bad when Rand save Mat and Avi's life?  Maybe he shouldn't have done that since Balefire is bad...

 

There are several cases of knowledgeable characters saying balefire could destroy the world.  The way I see it, and I suspect many would agree with me, destroying the world would, in fact, be bad.

 

Demandred mentions that balefire was more feared than the Choedan Kal during the AoL, and that should tell you something since the Choedan Kal are something else that could easily destroy the world.

 

Yet she spoke of al'Thor as Lews Therin, just as Lanfear had, and spoke of the Choedan Kal as one familiar with the terror they had inspired during the War of the Power.  Only balefire had been more feared, and only just.

 

WH, Chapter 13

 

Additionally, it's mentioned that balefire takes a considerable amount of strength to produce.  Moiraine was no slouch in terms of strength among Aes Sedai, but she herself mentions that she could probably only erase a few seconds of time if she used all her strength.  I'm not sure exactly how long Rand and Rhavin's fight lasted, but I doubt it was more than 30 minutes or so, and Rand put everything he had into the balefire he used to kill Rhavin.

 

I'm not going to look up the relevant passages, but there you go.

 

Just because it was used with positive results in the past doesn't mean it isn't (incredibly) dangerous, and the characters in the series rightly recognize that.

 

Also, about balefiring Semi to get Rand's hand back, that isn't going to happen.  As I stated above, it takes considerable strength in the power to erase more than a few seconds of time, so it's probably too late.  Secondly, Rand wouldn't allow it - he doesn't hurt women, ever.    Thirdly, Semi probably has loads of valuable information on the DO's activities, and if she can be coerced to give it up it will greatly help Rand win TG.  Lastly, Rand is a Tyr figure, so him being one handed actually makes sense.

[Arkelias]

There are several cases of knowledgeable characters saying balefire could destroy the world.  The way I see it, and I suspect many would agree with me, destroying the world would, in fact, be bad.

 

And yet the world didn't end when he balefired the darkhound, or when he balefired Ravhin.  So, obviously some use of balefire can happen without destroying the pattern or it already would have been destroyed.

 

Demandred mentions that balefire was more feared than the Choedan Kal during the AoL, and that should tell you something since the Choedan Kal are something else that could easily destroy the world.

 

We also learned that entire cities were wiped out using balefire, which nearly destroyed the pattern.  Obviously using balefire to do that is a bad idea, and can have catastrophic consequences.

 

You don't see a difference between a finger of balefire that erases the last minute or two and a Callandor style blast that would erase everyone in a city for months?

 

 

Just because it was used with positive results in the past doesn't mean it isn't (incredibly) dangerous, and the characters in the series rightly recognize that.

 

Its dangerous, but not mindlessly so.  We understand exactly what the dangers are, and so do the characters in the books.  A little balefire will only erase a few minutes, and risks very little damage to the pattern.  We know, because we've seen dozens of uses in the series.  Moraine uses it.  Rand uses it.  Moridin uses it.  One of the black Ajah uses it to attack Nynyeave in Tanchico.

 

None of these destroyed the pattern or caused any problem we can see.  At all. Not even slightly.  In the case of the Aiel waste and in Caemlyn the power saved Mat's life.  Without him Rand loses.  So, obviously it can be used surgically for great benefit.

 

Also, about balefiring Semi to get Rand's hand back, that isn't going to happen.  As I stated above, it takes considerable strength in the power to erase more than a few seconds of time, so it's probably too late

 

If he'd done so at the time he sustained the injury he could have gotten his hand back.  Rand is the strongest male channeler in existence.  I'm sure he could produce enough to erase a minute or two.

 

Secondly, Rand wouldn't allow it - he doesn't hurt women, ever.   

 

Perhaps you should consider rereading this part of my post:

 

Now, I understand that RJ has set Rand up so that he won't harm women.  I get that.

 

I realize Rand won't harm women.  What I specifically said was I wish Rand had a bit of internal monologue showing he understood balefire could have saved his hand. Whether he chose not to do it because he can't harm women, or because he fears the damage it could do it would still acknowledge the fact that he knows it can be done.

 

In the writing world that's called 'hanging a lantern' on something, so the reader knows your character is aware of something.

 

 

Thirdly, Semi probably has loads of valuable information on the DO's activities, and if she can be coerced to give it up it will greatly help Rand win TG.

 

Good luck getting anything out of her.  You'd have to be willing to torture a woman who pioneered torture 3,000 years ago.  If he's not willing to kill her, what makes you think he'll torture her?  Not going to happen, but that's a topic for another discussion.

 

Lastly, Rand is a Tyr figure, so him being one handed actually makes sense.

 

I'm pretty sure this part wasn't part of Rand's logic when deciding whether or not to balefire Semi.

[Wingendosering]

Yeah, I understand that Balefire is considered bad and I understand (and really freakin hate) Rand's reluctance to hurt women (everytime I read Alanna bonding him, I wish he'd grow up and smack her if not balefire her to undo the bond).  However, that still does not explain his ignorance with Morgase...he has no way of knowing how far back he burnt Rahvin's thread.  He acknowledges balefire as being the force to bring back Avi, Mat, and Asmo but never even thinks of Morgase.  And I don't really think Rand is scared of balefire.  After he realizes that balefire brought back Mat, Avi, and Asmo, he continues to wipe out the trolloc army with ONLY BALEFIRE, which would suggest it's come to be one of his weapons of choice.  Perhaps he hoped to save more maidens, but I doubt it.

 

As somebody above said, it would have been nice if he at least acknowledged balefire as a possibility for his hand.  Also, the Forsaken may be terrified of balefire, but even they use it willingly.  I don't doubt Lanfear would have balefired Aviendha and Ishamael and Rahvin both use it while fighting Rand, so why doesn't Dashiva just blast him?

 

It seems like RJ made this oh-so-powerful killer weapon then thought...'wow that seems a little too powerful now....yeah let's cut back on that', as though it was a nuclear bomb or something...

 

I must admit I'll be pretty pissed if Rand dies at the end of the last book (hoping for LTT to somehow take the hit) and nobody balefires the bastard that kills him (no doubt Taim or Moridin or Fain).

[Balefire to da face!]

Yeah, I understand that Balefire is considered bad and I understand (and really freakin hate) Rand's reluctance to hurt women (everytime I read Alanna bonding him, I wish he'd grow up and smack her if not balefire her to undo the bond).  However, that still does not explain his ignorance with Morgase...he has no way of knowing how far back he burnt Rahvin's thread.  He acknowledges balefire as being the force to bring back Avi, Mat, and Asmo but never even thinks of Morgase.  And I don't really think Rand is scared of balefire.  After he realizes that balefire brought back Mat, Avi, and Asmo, he continues to wipe out the trolloc army with ONLY BALEFIRE, which would suggest it's come to be one of his weapons of choice.  Perhaps he hoped to save more maidens, but I doubt it.

 

Which is why Cadsuane was 100% right in smacking him in his face for it. He was a foolish child wielding a weapon more dangerous then he could possibly understand.

 

Normally I don't say that about Rand, because it's annoying enough having to listen to every female in the series say it about him, but in this case it's true.

 

As somebody above said, it would have been nice if he at least acknowledged balefire as a possibility for his hand.  Also, the Forsaken may be terrified of balefire, but even they use it willingly.  I don't doubt Lanfear would have balefired Aviendha and Ishamael and Rahvin both use it while fighting Rand, so why doesn't Dashiva just blast him?

 

It only seems that way. Rand has plenty of reasons for not even thinking about it.

 

1. He doesn't use balefire anymore, Cads is training him well.

 

2. Killing Semi outright just to get his hand back is beyond selfish. Interogating a Forsaken(who is waaaay more in the know about things then Asmo ever was) is one of Rand's biggest oppurtunities in the last 4 or 5 books. Wiping that out just to get his hand back would have been foolish.

 

3. Rand is used to losing things. His instinctive reaction was not "how can I get this back" it was "Get over it, move on". So his mindset alone, without anything else, would mean he probably wouldn't consider it.

 

Also, if the Forsaken jumped off a bridge, would you? :P

 

It seems like RJ made this oh-so-powerful killer weapon then thought...'wow that seems a little too powerful now....yeah let's cut back on that', as though it was a nuclear bomb or something...

 

No, it's a part of Cadsuane's lesson that Rand must learn. You don't beat the Shadow by stooping to thier level. You don't save the pattern by destroying little bits of it. You don't save humanity by losing your humanity.

 

You guys seem to see it as just a practical matter, but it's not. It's, I dare say, a moral one. You are talking about changing what has already happened. It is unnatural and it damages the pattern. You guys are so caught up in whether or not he can get away with this or that without completely unraveling the pattern that you aren't considering that maybe it's something that he just shouldn't do.

 

Now I agree that in moments of true desperation, balefire should be used. I beleive one of Nyn's great lines is something like, "Take what you need, and then pay for it. That's what seperates good and evil"(paraphrasing :P). If Rand needs to save Perrin or Mat or some other situtation comes up that he needs to use balefire to win the Last Battle, then it's something he should do. But he should do it with the knowledge that it is something that is wrong.

[Arkelias]

You're not wrong about the morality of it Balefire.  You've also heard my problems with how Rand's been treated in the second half of the series, but I'll repeat a little bit of it here for those who haven't.

 

We wish Rand would have Balefired her, because it bothers us that he lost his hand.  He's a friggin swordsman, and him becoming a swordmaster was a major part of the early series.  Having him lose him hand felt unecessary and was frustrating for me to read.

 

He's been gimped in so many ways.  Was this really necessary?  Especially when there is such a clear, easy way to fix the problem.

 

As far as interogating Semi.  Uh, yeah, that's not going to backfire or anything.  He already knows that she escaped captivity in the AoL.  As no one ever dies in the WoT its a fairly safe bet she'll escape again.  Once she's loose she'll cause more havok.

 

We learned from Mogedhien that imprisoning a forsaken to learn from them is a very dangerous proposition.  Rand also believes Asmodean fled, not that he died.  So it strikes me as odd he'd want to take the risk of imprisoning Semi.  There are some really big risks there.

 

As you learn from her she's observing you, which means she could end up learning a lot more about Rand than he does about her.  Then when she inevitably escapes (and mark my words she will) you've given the shadow a lot of valuable info.

[mb]

In Lord of Chaos when Rand meets Taim, he tells to use balefire only on shadowspawn; Rand probably intended to follow that rule afterward.

 

balefiring Rahvin, part of the reason might have been to save Mat & Aviendha; another part might be habit, another part of the reason might be because he decided beforehand.

 

About how far back balefire can go, that would depend on the strength of the balefire.  The strongest Rand could do non-aided, that might be 30 minutes; with just Callandor, not sure but likely not 3000 years; with just Choedan Kal, not sure but more than with just Callandor; the two combined together, not sure but more than with just Choedan Kal.

 

[Jemlin]

Was it bad when Rand save Mat and Avi's life?  Maybe he shouldn't have done that since Balefire is bad...

 

He didn't balefire Rahvin to get Mat and Aviendha back, he balefired Rahvin because he was fairly angry. Of course, at that point he should have realized what brought them back, but that's something else. I do think he should have balefired her, but then he's got this whole, stupid, "don't hurt/kill women" complex. Do any of the women know it? I wouldn't put it past Nynaeve or Cadsuane to do it regardless of what he wanted. I do wish Cadsuane would just start ignoring him and interrogate her already.

 

Removed. Spoilers.

[Balefire to da face!]

Was it bad when Rand save Mat and Avi's life?  Maybe he shouldn't have done that since Balefire is bad...

 

He didn't balefire Rahvin to get Mat and Aviendha back, he balefired Rahvin because he was fairly angry. Of course, at that point he should have realized what brought them back, but that's something else. I do think he should have balefired her, but then he's got this whole, stupid, "don't hurt/kill women" complex. Do any of the women know it? I wouldn't put it past Nynaeve or Cadsuane to do it regardless of what he wanted. I do wish Cadsuane would just start ignoring him and interrogate her already.

 

Removed. Spoilers.

 

 

Yeah, Cads using balefire would be very bad.

 

Removed. Spoilers.

 

Oh, and Ark, all of those are good points about trying to keep Semi hostage. Problem is that that the alternatives are all even less acceptable. Killing her outright instead of trying to learn anything from her just on the fear of one day she might escape is unacceptable. Now, in the long run I agree that what exactly to do with her presents a problem. Planning to keep her indefinitely is foolish. The longer she is imprisioned, the more likely she will be to escape or be freed. Perhaps give her over to a reunited White Tower(preferably with the BA rooted out) for judgement? If anyone has the right to pass judgement on her crimes, and the ability to carry it out, it is them. I can't remember, do any of the good guys actually realize that the DO is just spitting these Forsaken back out when they kill them? It might be in everyones best interest to still Semi and keep her locked up.

 

Of course, knowing that this is a story, we know that Semi probably won't reach such a mundane end. But Rand doesn't know that, so we can't blame him for not killing her outright ;)

[Jemlin]

I've always wondered if Cad and Nyn should Sever, and then Re-heal Semi as a method of interrogation.  I imagine Semi's pride and arrogance centers on her strength in the Power, and having Nyn heal her so she's about as strong as your Average Aes Sedai would shake her world up quite a bit, Removed. Spoilers.

[WWWwombat]

Best way to deal with Semi is severing or binding imo, which just so happens to be her sentence from the AoL.  Also, bringing the world one step closer to oblivion and throwing away a valuable resource just to get a hand back seems kinda dumb.  And stop whining about any time Rand faces any adversity.

[Phariah]

ok you use balefire to burn out some one from the pattern is a bad thing. thats bad lets say you take a rug burn a tread here a partial thread there and the rug will fall apart. we learned nuclear weapons were bad we stopped using them otherwise we would all be dead now. i don't inderstand how hard it is to grasp that idea. the DO doesn't mind his minions using balefire because he is gonna wind up destroying everything at one point anyway he just wants to be loose. even Demo has thoughts about this. if everything is destroyed the Forsaken will have nothing to rule, which is why they stoppped using it.

 

so what Rand has suffered thats to be expected, i mean you want him to waltz through the series and come out roses? that not real. he is the savior and only hope for the world of course he is gonna suffer.

he is a swordsman so its a bad thing he lost his hand? he isn't gonna win TG with a swordfight or a duel. and really a nice sword of flame doesn't need balance or weight so one handed won't be a detriment.

 

and as for Rand not wanting to hurt a woman. i mean ya he takes it to the extreme but thats a noble ideal. look at how he was brought up and what Moiraine says about him in her letter to him. its not hard to understand him.

 

for him to start torturing and slaying whomever he pleased would be insane and just like how Adrihol was formed. they fought the shadow with the same tactics as the shadow and they died off and created the shadowed Shadar Logoth. the armies of Adrihol were disliked as much as the shadows forces and for Rand to do the things that some of you want to do would be just the same. Rand is showing ideals and honor and nobility and lawful perspective. these things are what will help him beat the shadow and allow the land to survive. Rand is taking the higher ground. the right way isn't always the easy way.

[OptimusPrime]

Seriously.  One thing that's been bugging me as I reread them is that none of the characters truly think through the whole 'balefire' thing.  Rand could have gotten his hand back no prob by blasting Semirhage (why exactly hasn't he killed her again?) and after toasting Rahvin, you would think Rand would know Morgase was alive and have people looking for her.  He thought Rahvin killed her the day before he arrived in Caemlyn.  After seeing Avi, Asmo, and Mat alive and well, he should have thought of Morgase.

 

Although I'm not sure Nynaeve and Elayne understand Balefire, they could have attached Birgitte to the Pattern again by hitting Moghedien with it...

 

Osan'gar...how many chances did he have to balefire Rand?

 

And side note here...do we actually know how far back balefire can burn the pattern?  Could balefiring a Forsaken well enough actually expel them from the Third Age, for instance?

 

Rand knows that Semirhage can give information that will help him win TG. His lefty isnt vital.

 

Osan'gar, by not balefiring Rand, shows that he knows balefiring a Ta'veren could quite easily inravel the Pattern.

 

They all know its usefulness, but they also know its dangers, and Rand not killing Semirhage was probably the most intelligent thing he ever did.

[magnutz]

In Lord of Chaos when Rand meets Taim, he tells to use balefire only on shadowspawn; Rand probably intended to follow that rule afterward.

 

balefiring Rahvin, part of the reason might have been to save Mat & Aviendha; another part might be habit, another part of the reason might be because he decided beforehand.

 

About how far back balefire can go, that would depend on the strength of the balefire.  The strongest Rand could do non-aided, that might be 30 minutes; with just Callandor, not sure but likely not 3000 years; with just Choedan Kal, not sure but more than with just Callandor; the two combined together, not sure but more than with just Choedan Kal.

 

 

Hmm, Rand used Balefire to be sure that the DO didn't revive Ravhin? Or was that practice unknown to Rand?

 

[OptimusPrime]

In Lord of Chaos when Rand meets Taim, he tells to use balefire only on shadowspawn; Rand probably intended to follow that rule afterward.

 

balefiring Rahvin, part of the reason might have been to save Mat & Aviendha; another part might be habit, another part of the reason might be because he decided beforehand.

 

About how far back balefire can go, that would depend on the strength of the balefire.  The strongest Rand could do non-aided, that might be 30 minutes; with just Callandor, not sure but likely not 3000 years; with just Choedan Kal, not sure but more than with just Callandor; the two combined together, not sure but more than with just Choedan Kal.

 

 

Hmm, Rand used Balefire to be sure that the DO didn't revive Ravhin? Or was that practice unknown to Rand?

 

 

Rand balefired Rahvin because he knows it undoes ones actions. He used strong balefire to make sure Mat and Aviendha would come back. Im 99% sure that Rand doesnt know the Forsaken have been reincarnated.

[raz0r]

While using balefire may seam reasonable for fixing mistakes and preventing bad things, like loosing arms or close friends dieing, from happening, there is really good reasoning behind not using it.

 

Main reason is that balefire actually messes with the time, and messing around with time is generally not a good idea.

 

While at first using small amounts of balefire might seam positive thing, there is always the danger of getting to accustomed to it using it more often and as stronger as you can, trying to fix more and more of the things you think that went wrong at one point or another.

 

For example (purely hypothetical, not real events in the book): lets say few weeks or months after Rand's run in with Moridin in Shadar Logoth, where Moridin saves him from dieing, Rand learns that Moridin killed lets say all the people in Emond's field some time ago. Rand gets mad, grabs Callandor, somehow finds Moridin and balefires the hell out of him, burning years back. So what happens: even putting aside that all the things that happened between Ishamael and Rand in the first three books will be gone, one of the results will be that Moridin, would have never showed up in Shadar Logoth, he wouldn't have helped Rand out, and by all means Rand should have been dead. This crates a time paradox. By burning Moridin out of the Pattern, making him nonexistent, at the time he saved him, Rand would have been dead and the future, than how could he balefire Moridin in first place.

 

It may be, that creating such a paradox, can destroy the Pattern.

 

Even starting out small with balefire, that can take back merely few minutes, there is always the danger you can undo something you are not aware of happening and create paradox, that can disrupt the fabric of the Pattern. And using it on large scale, either for destroying entire cities, or for killing one person, but with the power the entirely wipe him out of existence can be disastrous as they learned in the AOL.

 

So i think the characters may not understand balefire fully, but have good reason for not using it as general warfare, and Cadsuane is totally right to tell Rand he should never use it.

[Arkelias]

I still disagree with the general position people have taken about small uses of balefire.  I also think the argument that if you start using small amounts you might be tempted to use more to be unlikely.  If Rand can save a loved one by balefiring someone and removing the last 2 minutes from the pattern I'd say that's an acceptable risk.

 

Though, I think the big reason balefire was given this limitation is that RJ realized it was the only way for characters to truly die in his series.  Can't ever have a forsaken actually die now can we?

 

Otherwise, how would they be recycled and brought back again after they bumble their way into their latest death?

[OptimusPrime]

I still disagree with the general position people have taken about small uses of balefire.  I also think the argument that if you start using small amounts you might be tempted to use more to be unlikely.  If Rand can save a loved one by balefiring someone and removing the last 2 minutes from the pattern I'd say that's an acceptable risk.

 

The question that still lingers for me is one of consequences. If two balefire streams touch it has nasty side effects on both channelers. Can balefire bring back the balefired? If not, it would still try, and that could be nasty also. It'd be good to see some of the dangers of balefire before the end of the series. Maybe too much would result in events shifting constantly for a time.

[magnutz]

I think balefire is a weave that was too powerful and therefore had to be curbed. If we push the idea of using too much of it - which a really mad channeller could do - we get Armageddon on a cosmic Randland level. If all is part of the pattern so is the "universe" as it is in Randland also part of it. Balefire could make everything fall apart. The whole thing strikes me as a mishap in writing from RJ's side. He invented THE bomb and it got out of hand.

 

 

[mb]

Hmm, Rand used Balefire to be sure that the DO didn't revive Ravhin? Or was that practice unknown to Rand?

Not sure if Rand knew about it.  If he did, the info would likely have been from Asmodean.

Since Rand assumes that Moridin is just a darkfriend (on the basis of he [Rand] knowing the Forsaken faces through Lews Therin's memories), it seems Rand does not know about it.

Since Rand gets information from Lews Therin's memories, it seems Lews Therin does not know either.