The one power is cheap

[Bob T Dwarf]

But Bob T Dwarf, we do know some of the saboteurs.  We know that Mesaana is in the White Tower.  We know Alviarin is there.  We know Elza Penfell is in Tear.  We know that Taim is up to no good and we know he has a whole load of male channelers with him.

 

If the saboteur problem is that it results in fancies, that applies equally to the everyone will get along and unite under Rand and totally pwn the DO.  We may be able to assume that the WT gets united.  We have no idea how much that will cost the light.  We assume the Seanchan will enter a treaty.  We have no idea how much that will cost the light.  We assume that civil wars will end.  We have no idea how much that will cost the light, but it has cost them dearly.  

 

The people who claim that the shadow has made horrible decision ignores that the light, Rand and many others, have done things that have compromised their strength as well, and rely on the fact that things will be hunky dorie in the end as everyone will see the DO and go, we better join up with that Dragon.  If the shadow has a somewhat disunified front with infighting, the light can only be said to be in total chaos as internal conflict is persistent even now.

 

I'm not one of those who think everything will be peaches and cream for the Light.

 

All that you detail is indeed very tough sledding for the Light.  And it will undoubtedly get worse.

 

Mesaana will cause some possibly major problem.  Alviarin?  Everything we've seen of her lately points to her being broken-down.  Not even really able to care for herself anymore.  Elza?  She'll cheerfully kill anyone who tries to impede Rand from reaching the Pit of Doom.  Then, if she's present, she will equally cheerfully try to kill anyone who tries to help him.  Weiramon we can at least count on to do something spectacularly unhelpful.

 

Taim is, so far at least, only a theoretical bad guy.  Deliberately written to be so disagreeable that we're supposed to focus on him and ignore someone far more dangerous to Rand.  That doesn't mean he isn't really a bad guy, too.  It just means that, as yet, we can't be 100% sure which way he'll jump.

 

Then there's the basement full of baddies that Elayne is too squeamish to deal with properly.  They may yet cause some grief.

 

There's the 13 AS with the Borderlanders.  Good?  Bad?  Some of each?  We just don't know, so they're just something we and Rand will have to deal with if they become an issue.

 

Theoretically there's the potential for disaster behind every door and under every rock.  So what?   The potential doesn't mean that the Shadow is winning.  Nor do any of the bad guys we know about and those we don't represent the fruition of some carefully laid, deep, dark, Masterful Evil-Doer Plan.  

 

The situation as it currently exists in Randland is almost entirely the result of the Law of Unintended Consequences.  For both sides.

[sheikh chilli]

You make a good point Alternate.  Some of the shadow's sabotuers are very well placed, and can inflict a lot of damage as a result.  Hopefully in the last three books Sanderson really plays this up.

 

I'd love to see the shadow kick the light in the balls hard, because then it would mean the shadow was competent.  I'd love to see the black ajah drag Egwene off to Shayol Gul and turn her to the shadow.  I'd love to see them steal Callandor and start using it to wreak havok on the forces of light.

 

These could be some great moments and in a few weeks I'm really hoping we see some of them!

 

indeed. arkelias. It's about time the shadow did something epic. like overruning andor and sending rand the heads of elayne and aviendha for starters

[Arkelias]

I agree chilli.  It would definitely go a long way towards supporting that the Shadow was winning.

[Hallow]

You make a good point Alternate.  Some of the shadow's sabotuers are very well placed, and can inflict a lot of damage as a result.  Hopefully in the last three books Sanderson really plays this up.

 

I'd love to see the shadow kick the light in the balls hard, because then it would mean the shadow was competent.  I'd love to see the black ajah drag Egwene off to Shayol Gul and turn her to the shadow.  I'd love to see them steal Callandor and start using it to wreak havok on the forces of light.

 

These could be some great moments and in a few weeks I'm really hoping we see some of them!

 

indeed. arkelias. It's about time the shadow did something epic. like overruning andor and sending rand the heads of elayne and aviendha for starters

 

I really really want someone to kill Elayne and send her head to Rand, I want to see him go into a rage and rampage on something, haven't really seen that since Dumai's wells.

[Arkelias]

Maybe he'd beat someone to death with his stump.

[Hallow]

Maybe he'd beat someone to death with his stump.

 

Lol! :lol: I mean, remember the scene where we are told that when Rand saw they had captured Min he went into a rage and killed one warder with his bare hands then used his sword to kill a second warder, all before the Aes Sedai on guard managed to constrain him. Who didn't think that was epic.

[Arkelias]

As awesome as that scene was, and it was awesome, it would have been even cooler if RJ had written it and we'd seen Rand kill both warders.  Still, even just the description of what he did was pretty damn cool.

[sheikh chilli]

As awesome as that scene was, and it was awesome, it would have been even cooler if RJ had written it and we'd seen Rand kill both warders.  Still, even just the description of what he did was pretty damn cool.

 

that and mat/couladin fight were begging for a description

[Mr Ares]

Yes it does point out that the sender thought numbers would be enough, which is what I already said.

An experienced military commander could think numbers would be enough.

Aginor, who was not yet dead when the Shadowspawn were dispatched.

You appear to have information the rest of us don't. When were they dispatched?

 

Much as you'd like to believe otherwise, life, the universe, and everything is not about you.

Sure, there are little bits that aren't about me, but they're really not worth bothering with. But the best you can manage is that not everyone shares my feeling that trivia like that are hardly awful, and don't cancel out the big things going on.

 

No, we saw Moridin

No, we didn't. Not until ACoS. And Bob, it was there at the beginning. It doesn't involve clairvoyance, it was there when you signed up. Part of the deal. Like it or not.

 

Hmmmmm, apparently you have found some hitherto unknown proof that it was Taim that sent the Trollocs.

Hmmmm, apparently you didn't understand my argument.

 

The problem with the whole "hidden villain" argument is just that.

That's not a problem, though. We don't know their extent, but we know they are there.

 

New spring is a prequel.

And thus related. And writing prequels while the series is ongoing is hardly unheard of.

 

I know a number of people who lost interest in the series.

I know a number of people who didn't. People can and did lose interest at every stage, from the first book to the last. The majority kept going.

 

I bring up Maj because while he can be condescending he is also trying to argue a point.

How's that different to anyone else? Well, not everyone is condescending.

 

everyone makes mistakes. I've admitted to many in my time posting here. You haven't.

I don't make many. Learn the ground before the battle begins.

 

If its unsubstantiated whining why do you bother replying to it?

Why not? It's mildly amusing.

 

It means that he didn't know what to write next.

Then it's meaningless, because he did.

 

But unlike the Harry Potter books which all still sell for retail the WoT books have been heavily discounted. Why do you think that is?

Harry Potter was heavily discounted. A lot of places used them as loss leaders. You do it not just to make someone buy it, but to make them buy it from you.

 

memories of every notable general in history.

Memories of soldiers. Every notable general in history (other than Hawkwing) is your invention.

 

How is that different than Rand's trollocs?

It isn't. Because the Power is devastating, more so than repeating crossbows. Thus the relative differences in numbers are cancelled out. Hell, if he'd used nukes, he could have killed that many. Rand used a better weapon. History shows the results of that.

 

One side having it does not make for a good battle.

I disagree. And how so?

 

This attack was retarded.

You have yet to come up with a good enough reason why. I have agreed that the tactics used were overly simplistic, and were likely to cause casualties far higher than would be expected through a better plan, but the plan itself, while wasteful, was reasonably sound (save the use of the CK or Callandor, neither of which could be countered).

 

Taim thought he was the Dragon Reborn and studied the prophecies carefully. Even if he hand't everyone knows the Dragon Reborn was destined to take Callandor. Given that Taim must have investigated it, and almost certainly learned what it was.

That doesn't follow at all. Taim could just know that he is supposed to take Callandor without knowing what it is, besides a "sword that is not a swrod".

 

You don't think Taim's followers would have reported that Callandor was a Sa'Angreal strong enough to devestate the Seanchan army?

Assuming they knew. They might just know that a hell of a lot of Power was used to devastate their own army, not where it came from. And if you just devastated your own army, you might be reluctant to use it again, so Taim might be counting on that.

 

why would he assume Rand leaves it anywhere?

Well....he did. He left it in place for several books.

 

another one of your brilliant arguments destroyed.

You haven't destroyed one. The best you can mange is Taim might know, and might think Rand has it, and might think he'll use it, and might think it's strong enough to overwhelm 100,00 Trollocs, so I should send a couple of Dreadlords, because that will in no way harm my position if he survives, and Rand is in no way capable of overwhelming them if he can destroy an army with it. If you plan on Rand using Callandor, then don't attack as he'll be able to beat any mere handful of Dreadlords, and if you don't think he will then no reason to bring them, as the Trollocs can do the job, and 100,000 Trollocs is less of a loss than 1 Dreadlord.

 

That makes the weaves new to anyone from this age.

Like....Taim?

 

But it makes no sense for its basic nature to change.

Its basic nature has changed. Of course it makes sense.

 

MS kills anything it crosses.

Fain?

 

Dreadlords attacking in the middle of the night could have fireballed the house at range while Rand was asleep in bed.

Well, fireballing did work so well in Cairhien. And that was at close range, so more accurate. Still, I'm sure they would have done a grand job of turning that mansion into an easily defended pile of rubble.

 

If you attack at 2am while everyone is in bed that means they are unprepared.

Attacking at any given hour doesn't guarantee you're going to take every while they're asleep. Sentries? And 100,000 Trollocs are noticeable. Just one Warder or AS being awake ruins the element of surprise. And if Rand uses Callandor, they all die. And if he doesn't, you would have overrun him even in daylight. So it makes no difference, really.

 

but by that time the house has been blown apart by your dreadlords and the trollocs are already at the rubble.

Blowing the house apart takes time, is inaccurate, and leaves easily defensible ruins. Your Dreadlords attacking just gives the game away faster, and more reason to break out the big guns.

 

I don't think the god of war fits you.

Then clearly you don't know me at all.

 

The burden of proof is on you.

No, it's on you. Demandred is stated throughout to be a good general. Provide evidence, any evidence, to show he isn't. In fact, across the board your evidence of Chosen incompetence is lacking. Yes, they are arrogant, and make mistakes, but your case is far from proved.

 

Except for the part where he lost the city

Which is irrelevant. He didn't fight for it. He abandoned it to lure Rand into a trap, and Rand followed. Then Rand causing a distraction, possible changes resulting from balefire, and Mashadar moving to fast for him to react led to his downfall.

 

How does that make him a great general

Even great generals lose. Losing doesn't make you a bad general.

 

Shai'tan breaking free seems to have very little to do with anything the forsaken have or haven't done.

The Shadow is winning, remember. Shai'tan is the guy running the Shadow.

 

Every time the forsaken oppose him

And yet they fight elsewhere. LTT might have won every battle he was in, but he was still losing the war. Robb Stark won every battle he was in. He lost the war. Rand might win every battle he's in, but he is losing the war. How is that bad for the Shadow?

 

Ravhin getting balefired was minor? Cleansing the true source was minor? Taking the stone of tear was minor? Taking Illian and killing Sammael was minor?

Yes. All of them are minor. The Shadow is winning.

 

And no, I won't stop bringing it up.

You should, as like the number of weaves they know, it isn't relevant.

 

But we both know that isn't going to happen.

As we both know the Light is going to win. That says nothing about the state of affairs now - the Shadow is currently winning, and the Light really need to turn things around.

 

There are instances in history where those with smaller armies won.

Yes, and times the majority won the decisive factor was usually something other than numbers. As I say, they are a small advantage - still an advantage, but not a big one.

 

Numbers won't win by themselves

As I said. Small advantage.

 

I assume you're familiar with the term Pyrrhic victory?

The guy who though that "one more such victory would utterly undo him." Hardly relevant.

 

he still won through sheer numbers.

Pyrrhus ended up losing.

 

Now, simply throwing waves of men forward is frequently not enough for victory. Far greater advantages are good leadership, discipline, knowing the ground, manoeuvre, technology (hence victories in so many colonial wars where the natives outnumbered the Europeans, but we still won because we had guns).

 

In the hands of a competent general

Competent generalship is the advantage. A good general can squander a big army, battering them against solid defences, while a good general can put a smaller army on the flanks, or attack weak points in the line, or simply force the larger to retreat without firing a shot through good positioning (threaten lines of communication, for example).

 

Saying otherwise

I didn't. I said they were only a small advantage. Had you been more interested in reading and less in making up "witty" nicknames, you might have noticed that.

 

Rand will break the seals when he chooses, not when the DO does.

Well, four have already broken on Shai'tan's schedule, He could break the other three if Rand doesn't get there first. Time is running out, and it favours the Shadow.

 

The difference is that I'll actually listen to arguments and will sometimes change my position.

No difference at all. You just don't have a good enough argument to force me from my position.

 

won't ever admit to having made a mistake

But I have admitted such. It just doesn't happen often, because I don't make many mistakes. If you keep losing debates, start from a better position.

 

Because they weren't dead anymore.

So? He still killed them. That didn't become any easier.

 

How can you not see that?

I see it. It just doesn't affect his accomplishment. Now, in the cases of three of those Chosen, he didn't accomplish anything to begin with, but killing Ishamael is not lessened by Moridin's existence.

 

My point was that no character we cared about died.

But they have. Numerous characters we care about have. Most of them didn't come back. Ingtar?

 

Mat and Avi were technically killed.

So they died. You were wrong on that specific point, and in general.

 

RJ doesn't kill off main characters.

True, but so what?

 

No one cares about those people dying

Numerous people do. You don't.

 

You then asked me to give you a list of people that would matter.

But it wasn't exhaustive. People we care about who didn't make you list died.

 

You knew you'd lost that argument

I didn't. A fair few minor characters we care about have died without coming back. Two fairly major ones did and did come back.

 

Now, leaving aside RJ killing off various people we care about, he avoids killing main characters. So what? Does it really matter? Who cares? I don't read books saying, "wow, I hope these main characters die!" I know people who are actively turned off works that are willing to kill off characters. RJ goes down the making characters we like suffer but not die route. What's wrong with that? Far more interesting.

 

That still doesn't address the fact that in the Wheel of Time we have not experienced the loss of a single main character that would have provoked an emotional response from the reader.

That's not a fact at all. Two died, and came back. Other, minor characters that we cared about didn't come back, but they did die.

 

No, its not.

Yes, it is.

 

If we understand that main characters can die then we experience a sense of tension that we never would otherwise.

No, we don't. Killing people off won't generate that tension, and not killing them doesn't prevent you building up tension. There is nothing specific to killing off main characters.

 

We worry, because we know no one is safe.

Safe and alive are not the same. Our characters suffer. That can be far more interesting than death.

 

My point was that in most fantasy series power comes with a cost.

Moving the goalposts.

 

Your exmaple of frodo putting on a ring supports my argument, not yours.

It supports your new argument.

 

Is he an idiot too?

Many would say so.

 

You've said nothing to prove any of them inaccurate.

More to the point, you've said nothing to prove any of them accurate.

 

If he had merely eliminated all of the extraneous braid yanking, posturing, sniffing, skirt smoothing, spanking, slippering, switching, caning, strapping, and just 5 words from each paragraph he devoted to describing in overblown detail rooms, furnishings, carpeting, dresses, et al, he would have saved about a hundred pages per book.  That's 100 pages that he could have devoted to some of that stuff he claimed he had been forced to leave out or push off to the next book.

 

Over the course of 11 volumes, that would be two two additional 550 page books he could have written using material already in-mind in the same amount of time.

So you decide to attack supposedly specious reasoning not by showing how it's specious, but by posting something even more specious? Good move. See, taking a hundred pages out of each book doesn't mean you get to move a hundred pages forward from the next book. If you made them each 100 pages shorter, you just end up with shorter books. It's not even a given that shorter books get written faster, as more and more revisions might be used cutting out extraneous verbiage from these shorter books. So a few braid tugs fewer gets us fewer braid tugs. Nothing more, nothing less. RJ still dies, the series is as many books as it was going to be. Brandon still finishes it off. People still complain.

 

Now, why would it just get you shorter books? Well, look at EotW. Imagine that, just a bit shorter. what can RJ take from TGH and stick on there? Nothing, really. All the material from TGH is better suited to that book. And so on. Also, bear in mind that most of these books could already be longer if RJ wanted them to be. PoD is over 150,000 words shorter than TSR. There was room for more material. But you can't just move stuff from one book to another without regards for structure. And restructuring takes time, especially after spending years on a book anyway. Sure, the total word counts of books 8-10 can be averaged out to 2 books shorter than LoC and TSR, but Rj would have to turn three books into two, and that can't be done just by cutting the middle book in half and sticking the first half on the end of 8 and the second half on the beginning of 10.

 

Lee didn't get this idea of Cannae-like Napoleonic total destruction out of his head

The problem with trying to recreate Cannae, is that Hannibal won that battle, but he ended up losing the war. So it's just learning the wrong lesson from history. Winning a Cannae doesn't help you if you end up losing a Zama.

 

But their superior numbers would not have turned the tide had they not also learned how to fight the Reich.

Russian numbers were an asset, but they had far greater assets than that. Hitler's strategic blunders, the Russian winter, great generals (given the freedom to do their job), the right weapons, enough of the right weapons, space. All better factors in the Soviet victory than mere numbers. They (the Russians) had numbers in WWI as well. They lost that. And Germany's defeat in WWI was also due to more than overwhelming numbers against them - they were starved by the naval blockade. Numbers help. Other things help more.

[Lobododragao]

wow... thats a lot of words. Remind me to never get on ares bad side x.x

[Muad Cheade]

wow... thats a lot of words. Remind me to never get on ares bad side x.x

 

Haha. Very good point.

 

Lol! :lol: I mean, remember the scene where we are told that when Rand saw they had captured Min he went into a rage and killed one warder with his bare hands then used his sword to kill a second warder, all before the Aes Sedai on guard managed to constrain him. Who didn't think that was epic.

 

Yeah. It'd be nice to see it but that scene and the scene where Mat remembers killing Couladin weere among my favorite because Robert Jordan lets the reader imagine what happens. Very few authors do that.

 

As for numerical superiority being the end all of warfare....it really is not. Like Ares said it's an advantage but discipline, leadership, tactics, terrain are more important. Just look at Mat's early battles and Rand's/Bashere's campaign against the Seanchan. They were both outnumbered yet they knew the terrain, had a very effective strategy, and out-generaled the enemy.

[Durinax]

a smart guy once said "a disorganized mob is not an army" cant recall the name

 

[Blackhoof]

Wait, is that the same disorganised mob of the prophets that wiped out Ghealdanin armies through sheer weight of numbers?  :P Numbers are not everything in a battle, but thaey are a large part, no matter how many times you say they aren't. I do not believe that a larger army will always win, but they have an advantage, an advantadge that you cannot deny.

[singogreatest360]

First of all i'm not worried about people who quitin the WoT books. People quit in High School too. They are called stupid people.

 

The magic system is the BEST i have encountered!!!!! I hate overpowered/infinate powered bad guys that can disapear and reapear and kill people by thinking and give you nightmares and the books NEVER explain the developement. As this book goes on the good guys go "Disapear/reapear. Got it. Traveling. Got it. Burst into flames attack. Got it. World of Dreams. Got it. So as the series progress we finally see some good guys(even those besides main characters) that are actually worth something.

 

also the Forsaken are people too. They can't do anything!!!!!!! They have to sneak in and take control if they want to be a general. They have to assess the risk before they leap in. Remember if they lose they can still live on. If they die they have to depend on the dark one to bring them back.

 

Don't forget about communication issues. All of the forsaken didn't know who or where Rand was untill after he did something in the first 3 books. They weren't working together.

 

BTW I never got the impression that WT was made up of 10 or 20 people. They couldn't possibly be running the world with those numbers. It's that way in ALOT of other series. But in this one RJ realized that Even magic users need decent numbers with they are gonna be spread out enough to get things done.

 

I also disagree that the more mysterious the magic system is the more appeal it has. The more the mystery, the more i want to put the book down and find a book with some consistant ideas in it's system.

 

BTW Star Wars is proof that mystery is not really required in a system. Billion dollar franchise with about 20 things you can do with the force,

 

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

BTW Star Wars is proof that mystery is not really required in a system. Billion dollar franchise with about 20 things you can do with the force,

 

Try more like...5 things. If you aren't counting any of the video games or spinn-off books. Which I don't.

[Phariah]

normally i love debating against Mr. Ares but here i have to say i agree with him. * cheers for Mr. Ares *

[Luckers]

Ares, do you really have to respond to every single sentence? It doesn't really serve your argument, except in the sense that it discourages people from reading it, and therefore from responding.

 

It made me want to cry finding out what you were saying. Once I did I found I agreed with you. But seriously dude!

 

I only have one thing to add at this stage.

 

Quote

Aginor, who was not yet dead when the Shadowspawn were dispatched.

 

You appear to have information the rest of us don't. When were they dispatched?

 

The rest of us have the information to discredit this. Rand did not go to Algarin's manor until after Osen'gar was dead, therefore unless Osen'gar has hereforeto unstated prophetic ability, he did not send this attack.

 

I was being funny. Osen'gar clearly had no such ability or he wouldn't have been convinced he'd be able to balefire Rand.

 

Ares is right. It was not Aginor.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

wow... thats a lot of words. Remind me to never get on ares bad side x.x

I'm not as long winded in person. If you're not listening, I'll just beat you unconscious with a pool cue.

 

an advantadge that you cannot deny.

Good job no-one is. Everyone has acknowledged that numbers are an advantage. Just not all of us agree that they are a major advantage - other things are far more important. There's a reason why, if you pick up a copy of "The Art of War", Sun Tzu's principles do not include "make sure you have a bigger army than the other guy."

 

Ares, do you really have to respond to every single sentence?

I don't. I edited a lot of sentences out. For length, believe it or not. The problem is taking out most of the context, leaving just a sentence, not what that sentence was responding to, and so on. It just ends up getting out of hand very quickly. I will endeavour to be more monosyllabic in future.

[WWWwombat]

Pyrrhus was a horible general

 

LOL WUT

[Blackhoof]

Thats why they call it a "Phyrric victory"  :)

[Muad Cheade]

Don't forget that the great Hannibal, the man who taught the Romans the true meaning of fair accounted Pyrrhus as the greatest general to have ever graced the battlefield.

[WWWwombat]

Thats why they call it a "Phyrric victory"  :)

 

I palmfaced.

 

Don't forget that the great Hannibal, the man who taught the Romans the true meaning of fair accounted Pyrrhus as the greatest general to have ever graced the battlefield.

 

Which goes to show Hannibal was modest as well as brilliant.