The one power is cheap

[Mr Ares]

Yes, I know that Egwene has changed the refusal to take in the weak.

They never refused to take in the weak. They just took their training only so far, according to ability.

[OptimusPrime]

Then finally at the Cleansing, when we see him in a situation perfect for him to do some stuff well worth the wait

No we don't. He's a general. He wasn't commanding an army.

 

A good general would most likely have proven his worth as a soldier first. If we're to assume that Demandred needs armies to be good, then I wonder how he ever got into a position where he had armies in the first place.

[Nightstrike]

Yes, I know that Egwene has changed the refusal to take in the weak.

They never refused to take in the weak. They just took their training only so far, according to ability.

Then why are the present day novices so very weak? Most of them are too weak to earn the shawl. They might not have refused to take in the ones that came knocking on their doorstep, but they surely didn't bother to recruit every last one of them either.

[Nightstrike]

Oh, and they refused to make 37.5 percent of all potential channelers Aes Sedai, so they actually did refuse to take them in as full Aes Sedai.

 

The ones taken in as novices, but too weak to become Aes Sedai, were trained a little and then sent on their way. Away from the White Tower.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

A good general would most likely have proven his worth as a soldier first.

Except in the AoL, they had to create their armies from scratch. Some people would have had to have gone straight to the top, more or less. So we can't really assume Demandred spent significant time as a junior officer, nor that he led from the front even if he did. And even if he was a junior officer who led from the front, he could easily be of the opinion that now his skills were too valuable to be wasted in such a way.

 

Then why are the present day novices so very weak?

They're not. Present day novices vary in strength. Nicola and Sharina, for example, are not weak. They are spread right across the board, as they were before. Now, many of them are older, and there are more of them.

they surely didn't bother to recruit every last one of them either.

That's the point, they never recruited, save in passing. They expected girls to come to them, so they didn't go out and find them. But any girl who came to them was trained as far as the Tower saw fit.

 

Oh, and they refused to make 37.5 percent of all potential channelers Aes Sedai, so they actually did refuse to take them in as full Aes Sedai.

They took them in and trained them, then.

[Nightstrike]

Most novices are too weak for ever earning the shawl (=becoming Accepted).

 

They recruited the stronger ones. They took them in. All the way.

 

As for what it means to "take someone in", obviously your definition isn't the same as mine. Lets just leave it at that.

 

They didn't recruit every last of the weak ones, but they did take in every last of the strong ones that they ever encountered. Some of the "strong" ones probably refused. That would be my guess, anyway. I don't think everybody wanted to become Aes Sedai.

[OptimusPrime]

Except in the AoL, they had to create their armies from scratch. Some people would have had to have gone straight to the top, more or less. So we can't really assume Demandred spent significant time as a junior officer, nor that he led from the front even if he did. And even if he was a junior officer who led from the front, he could easily be of the opinion that now his skills were too valuable to be wasted in such a way.

 

You are justifying Demandred being a pussy. Him being a pussy was not what I expected, which is why he can rot.

[Nightstrike]

Taking unnecessary risk for the sake of the team is not in any of the shadowsworn's vocabulary. That includes every single one of the Forsaken. That does not mean that they aren't dangerous. They are strong, skilled, knowledgeable, Talented and extremely evil. They will stop at nothing to advance themselves.

 

Well, maybe it's wrong to say that about Moridin. But he's a very special case. He strives for the complete destruction of everything.

 

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Thing is, I expected Demandred to use some battle tactics. Im not convinced at all that Demandred being a general only covers non-channeler armies. He didnt even get close enough to assess the defenses Rands followers had erected. If he even just saw the defenses and noted that Rands followers were so good, I wouldnt have minded, but nothing in my eyes, even the way he just turned and ran at the first minor challenge, will justify him appearing and not doign anything good at the best opportunity we had. It just looks like "Oooh! A challenge! Cant handle that on my own." Who else would you expect to think of tactics to counter a circle alone, when he matches the circle unaided? Again, I refuse to believe Demandreds general skills dont involve One Power battle tactics and that is why the excuses dont do anything for me. He could have tried at least making Rands group thinking they were surrounded, as if there more than just a handful of people, but no.

 

Surely, the fact that he matched a circle unaided should, if anything, have given him confidence. When people like Rahvin and Asmodean, who are not generals, put up a great fight in a One Power fight, Demandred the general would have the stones to stand and fight a group that he matches on his own. Instead, he underestimates his enemy (poor general) and as soon as he realizes he runs and doesnt come back (just poor).

 

Who would have thought that even Moghedien would give us a better performance in fighting than a god dam general. To say that a lot of people hate Moghedien, well, she is less a coward than Demandred because she is willing to stand her ground against Nynaeve without fleeing the very second she realizes they are equal.

 

Do we expect Demandred to run from any action-based scene that doesnt involve him sitting behind an army?

[Swigaro]

In Demandred's defense, he showed up at a spot he thought was far enough away from SL to avoid detection while weaving reversed webs, so no one could detect them.  Had he thought to (or been able to) also mask his ability to channel as Messana does in the WT, he could have done some serious damage.  As it happened, Cadsuane detected his ability to channel and directed one of the circles to blow him up.  He didn't really have an opprotunity to do anything cool because he was being attacked by a superior force that he couldn't even see.  We don't see Demandred, if I recall get close enough to even see the circle that is attacking him.  What, could he have done in that situation? 

[Nightstrike]

If he even just saw the defenses and noted that Rands followers were so good, I wouldnt have minded, but nothing in my eyes, even the way he just turned and ran at the first minor challenge, will justify him appearing and not doign anything good at the best opportunity we had. It just looks like "Oooh! A challenge! Cant handle that on my own."

Could it be that he tried to get to Rand instead of facing a threat with little reward? Also, I don't know if it was a minor challenge he faced. Their circle performed as strong weaves/strikes as he himself.

 

He could have tried at least making Rands group thinking they were surrounded, as if there more than just a handful of people, but no.

This opening Gateways here and there, couldn't it have been such an attempt?

 

Surely, the fact that he matched a circle unaided should, if anything, have given him confidence.

I think he expected them to perform worse than they did. Big surprise!

 

When people like Rahvin and Asmodean, who are not generals, put up a great fight in a One Power fight, Demandred the general would have the stones to stand and fight a group that he matches on his own. Instead, he underestimates his enemy (poor general) and as soon as he realizes he runs and doesnt come back (just poor).

Rahvin and Asmodean both ran from Rand. Rahvin hid. Asmodean lost control over the ter'angreal, even though Rand was far from his full potential. With a little help of the angreal.

 

Who would have thought that even Moghedien would give us a better performance in fighting than a god dam general. To say that a lot of people hate Moghedien, well, she is less a coward than Demandred because she is willing to stand her ground against Nynaeve without fleeing the very second she realizes they are equal.

Yeah, maybe Moghedien's courage is underestimated.

 

Do we expect Demandred to run from any action-based scene that doesnt involve him sitting behind an army?

I think he wants to plan his attacks in advance. I think he will prefer his own surprise-attacks. And other deeds, of course.

 

 

[Lobododragao]

    well as far as the one power being cheap, I kind of view it and its progression towards being more powerful as neccesary to the story in two ways.

   

    First and foremost, I think the power is the power and its been as strong, or weak as it always has, its just the characters involved with it have become more aware of how much it is in use in the world, so its their view points that are changing not the actual abundance of power available at the current time. Secondly, I don't remember exactly where the quote is to help support this theory, but it was a response of rj in one of his q/a sessions. This war is fundamentaly about the power (my words there) rj said something along the lines of, if your side doesn't have the power then you are pretty much out of the fight.

 

  now maybe a lot of catastrophic amazing over powering things are happening, but it seems to me that the main thrust of these things aren't a show of lots of power but how everything is spiraling out of control and into choas more and more at larger scales.

  also consider that without the power this would just be another war between humans for world domination, yes that might be bad, but the point here is that this is a war for our very existence (sp) One wrong step, if we loose, its game over, obliteration.

[sheikh chilli]

Thing is, I expected Demandred to use some battle tactics. Im not convinced at all that Demandred being a general only covers non-channeler armies. He didnt even get close enough to assess the defenses Rands followers had erected. If he even just saw the defenses and noted that Rands followers were so good, I wouldnt have minded, but nothing in my eyes, even the way he just turned and ran at the first minor challenge, will justify him appearing and not doign anything good at the best opportunity we had. It just looks like "Oooh! A challenge! Cant handle that on my own." Who else would you expect to think of tactics to counter a circle alone, when he matches the circle unaided? Again, I refuse to believe Demandreds general skills dont involve One Power battle tactics and that is why the excuses dont do anything for me. He could have tried at least making Rands group thinking they were surrounded, as if there more than just a handful of people, but no.

 

Surely, the fact that he matched a circle unaided should, if anything, have given him confidence. When people like Rahvin and Asmodean, who are not generals, put up a great fight in a One Power fight, Demandred the general would have the stones to stand and fight a group that he matches on his own. Instead, he underestimates his enemy (poor general) and as soon as he realizes he runs and doesnt come back (just poor).

 

Who would have thought that even Moghedien would give us a better performance in fighting than a god dam general. To say that a lot of people hate Moghedien, well, she is less a coward than Demandred because she is willing to stand her ground against Nynaeve without fleeing the very second she realizes they are equal.

 

Do we expect Demandred to run from any action-based scene that doesnt involve him sitting behind an army?

 

 

 

well said. demandred is acting more of a pussy. or perhaps rj is/was saving him for some later stuff. But no doubt the demandred of aol is totally different from the one of today even without the armies.

[OptimusPrime]

In Demandred's defense, he showed up at a spot he thought was far enough away from SL to avoid detection while weaving reversed webs, so no one could detect them.  Had he thought to (or been able to) also mask his ability to channel as Messana does in the WT, he could have done some serious damage.  As it happened, Cadsuane detected his ability to channel and directed one of the circles to blow him up.  He didn't really have an opprotunity to do anything cool because he was being attacked by a superior force that he couldn't even see.  We don't see Demandred, if I recall get close enough to even see the circle that is attacking him.  What, could he have done in that situation?

 

Thinking about it, I dont think Ive thought this out much have I. That post fair smashed my opinion of Demandreds cowardice. Well done Swigaro

 

This opening Gateways here and there, couldn't it have been such an attempt?

 

Did Demandred do that?

[Nightstrike]

Did Demandred do that?

I don't know. Some people did. Demandred may have been one of them. I know he wanted to get to Rand. We "heard" him thinking that. He also seemed surprised that he ran into trouble.

[Ashaman Kovan]

She killed Asmo (probably - must keep Asha'man Kovan happy).

 

Thank you for that. I appreciate it. :)

[deathgate]

Since we don't yet know who sent the 100k trollocs or why it's hard to judge the reasoning. Could just be one of the forsaken jockeying for position and trying to unhinge Moridin. Could also be Moridin behind the whole thing to flush others out. Shadow spawn can't go through one power gateways but what about true power gateways? Doesn't Moridin use those?

[Mr Ares]

Im not convinced at all that Demandred being a general only covers non-channeler armies.

It might cover channeler armies, but he wasn't an army. He was one man. And this was a duel.

Who else would you expect to think of tactics to counter a circle alone

One of those used to fighting on their own, not commanding an army. Bear in mind the first thing he did was Travel into SL, and he abandoned his plan there when they started shooting at him with Callandor. He realises they can track him, so he has to keep moving. If he stays still, then Callandor will blow him up. There was no point fighting Flinn's circle, it would only slow him down. So he did what all the others did - made a Gateway at the earliest opportunity and kept moving. Moving is life. Stillness is death.

 

Shadow spawn can't go through one power gateways but what about true power gateways? Doesn't Moridin use those?

It would take a hell of a long time to pass 100,000 Trollocs through a Gateway, which has to be held open all that time. And he can't use an angreal to help him. And they left days before the attack. Why the time lag if it was a Gateway?

[Mr. Micawber]

Im not convinced at all that Demandred being a general only covers non-channeler armies.

It might cover channeler armies, but he wasn't an army. He was one man. And this was a duel.

Who else would you expect to think of tactics to counter a circle alone

One of those used to fighting on their own, not commanding an army. Bear in mind the first thing he did was Travel into SL, and he abandoned his plan there when they started shooting at him with Callandor. He realises they can track him, so he has to keep moving. If he stays still, then Callandor will blow him up. There was no point fighting Flinn's circle, it would only slow him down. So he did what all the others did - made a Gateway at the earliest opportunity and kept moving. Moving is life. Stillness is death.

 

 

Likewise, I'm pretty sure that if best T-34 commander and best armored general the Soviets possessed were rolled into one man, and then dropped in his vehicle into the middle of three whole batteries of FlaK 88s led by a wily, skillful commander from Das Reich or perhaps Großdeutschland, he'd soon be far too busy trying to stay alive than anything else.

[Nightstrike]

Likewise, I'm pretty sure that if best T-34 commander and best armored general the Soviets possessed were rolled into one man, and then dropped in his vehicle into the middle of three whole batteries of FlaK 88s led by a wily, skillful commander from Das Reich or perhaps Großdeutschland, he'd soon be far too busy trying to stay alive than anything else.

Bad comparison. The circle performed as powerful OP blows as he himself could. He wasn't up against an army.

[Mr. Micawber]

Likewise, I'm pretty sure that if best T-34 commander and best armored general the Soviets possessed were rolled into one man, and then dropped in his vehicle into the middle of three whole batteries of FlaK 88s led by a wily, skillful commander from Das Reich or perhaps Großdeutschland, he'd soon be far too busy trying to stay alive than anything else.

Bad comparison. The circle performed as powerful OP blows as he himself could. He wasn't up against an army.

 

Ok, I'm going to have to assume you don't know what a battery is. It's several guns together, not an army.

 

Now, a T-34 against one 88, if the commander had his wits about him, could probably win. It's a hell of a lot hard against three or four, or even eight or ten, which I'd say the Callandor circle accurately reflects.

 

But if we're talking about several batteries are in a prepared position, sited to different ranges (I'd say this is at *least* as comparable to Cads being able to point out where and how far enemy channelers are)?

 

To defeat that, you'd need at least a squadron, or you'd need to be able to conceal your exhaust and the sounds of your diesel and have an amazing camo job. And that, my friend, isn't happening.

 

The key piece is that as long as Cads was, more or less, the forward artillery observer, she could call down fire without having to actually see anything. That's the beauty of indirect fire support, you don't need to be over open sights for it to be devastating.

 

Frankly, the wild cards in all of this were an enhanced Alivia - who's actually got more experience with weaponized Power, over 400 years, than even the Forsaken, because the Collapse plus the First War were only about 150 years - and Cads, who provided far better direction to the Lightforces' side of the battle than anything the Shadow did.

 

It's a testament to their power and skill that *more* Forsaken were not killed - and it's telling that the least warlike was only one killed.

[Nightstrike]

Ok, I'm going to have to assume you don't know what a battery is. It's several guns together, not an army.

Yeah, I'm not english-speaking normally. No army guy either.

 

Now, a T-34 against one 88, if the commander had his wits about him, could probably win. It's a hell of a lot hard against three or four, or even eight or ten, which I'd say the Callandor circle accurately reflects.

I meant the Flinn circle. Flinn & 2 women (I think). They performed at Demandred's own ability.

 

Frankly, the wild cards in all of this were an enhanced Alivia - who's actually got more experience with weaponized Power, over 400 years, than even the Forsaken, because the Collapse plus the First War were only about 150 years - and Cads, who provided far better direction to the Lightforces' side of the battle than anything the Shadow did.

Alivia made no great impression during the cleansing.

 

 

It's a testament to their power and skill that *more* Forsaken were not killed - and it's telling that the least warlike was only one killed.

Yeah, the Forsaken might have done better if they had formed circles. Men & women working together.

 

[Mr. Micawber]

Ok, I'm going to have to assume you don't know what a battery is. It's several guns together, not an army.

Yeah, I'm not english-speaking normally. No army guy either.

 

Now, a T-34 against one 88, if the commander had his wits about him, could probably win. It's a hell of a lot hard against three or four, or even eight or ten, which I'd say the Callandor circle accurately reflects.

I meant the Flinn circle. Flinn & 2 women (I think). They performed at Demandred's own ability.

 

Frankly, the wild cards in all of this were an enhanced Alivia - who's actually got more experience with weaponized Power, over 400 years, than even the Forsaken, because the Collapse plus the First War were only about 150 years - and Cads, who provided far better direction to the Lightforces' side of the battle than anything the Shadow did.

Alivia made no great impression during the cleansing.

 

 

It's a testament to their power and skill that *more* Forsaken were not killed - and it's telling that the least warlike was only one killed.

Yeah, the Forsaken might have done better if they had formed circles. Men & women working together.

 

 

Alivia fought off CyndaneFear - the strongest female channeler in existence - on her own, Flinn's circle was pretty powerful, but the central point is that Cads knew exactly where he was. This is very similar to an artillery piece sited beacuse the range to and location of the target has already been determined, meaning that a competent gunner can obliterate anything there.

 

Flinn might not be Demandred, but he's a pretty competent gunner. Also, Demandred was facing the Callandor circle too, when he first got to SL, based on the ranges involved.

 

It was, frankly, something of an ambush for the Shadow, because Moridin was either unaware of Cads' party or uncaring of the opposition the Chosen would face.

 

And, of course, he absented himself. I'd say this did more than anything else to tip the battle in favor of Our Guys, because he channels the TP, which is an amazingly destructive weapon - and an undetectable one.

 

PS: For a non-native speaker, you're amazing fluent! I'm impressed, since I can only claim literacy in French, I can't even speak it any more.

[Arkelias]

Mr Ares said:

So? The Blight should be capable of supporting millions of Trollocs. We expect bigger things, what with TG coming. And lesser battles will only feel trivial if they are seen from the pov of people who think them trivial.

 

They will be weighed against the battles that have already taken place in the series.  Having 100,000 trollocs casually wiped out makes any smaller battles trivial if there are any channelers involved in them.

 

Speaking of Mat, Mat's wholesale slaughter of the Seanchan army in KoD surely cheapens things more.

 

Not at all.  Why would it?  This was the best general who has ever lived leading an elite unit he put together.  The fights with the Seanchan made sense, involved good use of tactics and were fun to read.  More fights like this would drastically improve the series.

 

Notice, though, that Mat had no channelers and the Seanchan had a few that were wiped out before they could respond.  This fight didn't involve the one power, which is part of why its one of the best in the series.

 

 

Or he thought it would succeed without them, so saw no need to have them there when they weren't needed - a waste.

 

This makes whoever sent the trollocs a moron.  Even a few dreadlords would have gone a long way to ensuring the attack worked.  The total absence of them all but guaranteed failure.

 

It wasn't a feint.

 

I have a hard time believing it was a feint either.  I brought that up because the attack was so laughably bad it was the only other theory that made sense to me.

 

I see a huge flaw in your argument, by the way.  Here you say:

 

Yes. With Callandor or the CK, Rand could have squashed that army. Whoever sent those Trollocs couldn't know that he wouldn't use them.

 

So, you acknoweldge that the person who sent the trollocs knows Rand has not one but two Sa'Angreal that could allow him to easily quash the entire 100,00 trollocs.  Unlike the reader who knows Rand is a moron and won't use either, they don't.  They assume he'll make an intelligent decision for once and use either to wipe out the massive army attacking him.

 

Then you say:

If not for the new weaves, they would have been overwhelmed. That was unforeseeable. Presumably it was felt that there were enough Trollocs to get the job done, awake or not. It's not like the Shadow gives a dman about Trolloc lives.

 

Which is it?  If Rand had Callandor or the CK he didn't need new weaves.  He could have wiped out the assaulting force with either of his Sa'Angreal.  Even you admit that.  

 

So let's recap, shall we?  Someone sends 100,000 trollocs to assault Rand.  It makes no sense that they made it through the ways, but we'll overlook that.  The 100,000 trollocs attack during the day, AND they announce their presence before conveniently attacking in large masses that would be easily wiped out with the one power.

 

This was a retarded plan any five year old would have poked holes in, and is one more example of how none of the villians in this series can do anything intelligent.  This was a bad plan with an even worse execution.  

 

Worse, it shows what Rand can do to slaughter a nearly infinite amount without a Sa'Angreal.  What if he uses the new weaves through the CK or Callandor?  How long would a million trollocs last against that?  Seconds at best.

 

They do

 

Really?  Which general does the Shadow have that's made intelligent decisions?  If you're going to make a statement like this the least you could do is back it up.

 

Sitting back and letting the Light fight itself. Very smart, as it weakens the Light to no loss to the Shadow.

 

This completely missed my point.  Not participating in a war is not the same as an intelligent decision.  Sammael wasn't intentionally sitting out the war so the light would tear itself apart.  He just didn't do anything for several books that made any difference at all.

 

Because they haven't launched a major offensive. There is more to winning wars than winning battles.

 

Yes, but winning battles is a part of winning a war.  Or do you disagree?

 

Yet they are winning. If things go on as they are, they will win

 

The are winning not because of anything that has happened in the series, but because RJ arbitrarily said they were.  They've won no battles.  They have to evil dastardly scheme that's about to be fulfilled.  The only thing they can count on is Rand falling on his face.

 

That's hardly the best plan.  Or any plan at all.

 

Rand was just moving his forces into Arad Doman in KoD. Murandy is unknown. Some speculate Demandred is running the show there. Also, the Borderlands, potentially.

 

Irrelevant conjecture on your part.  You don't know Demandred is in control.  Nor have we seen any borderland nations controlled by the shadow.

 

I'm operating off of facts that we've seen in the first eleven books.  As far as we know the Shadow controls no nations.  None.  The only ones they did control Rand took back, which certainly suggests he's winning the war not losing it.

 

No reason why we should. The Shadow has infiltrated the Light. The Dreadlords are mixed with the AS, the Asha'man.

 

There's no reason we should see the shadow back up its shadowspawn with dreadlords?  What about the part where we were told the shadow would marshal its armies and send forth new dreadlords?

 

No, it makes them look ignorant. They do not see the enemy within.

 

The light looks ignorant?  The shadow spents its time bitching about clothing, social standing and who slighted who.  They don't ever actually have a plan.  The closest they get is talking about having a plan without explaining what it is.  Then when they enact their 'great plan' it fails miserably.

 

Can you point to a single forsaken plan that's come to fruition in the first eleven books?  Seems like things are going pretty badly for the shadow, and they they are losing everywhere.

 

And what if the guy you give Callandor or the CK to is a Darkfriend? Or what if a Darkfriend stabs the guy with Callandor? There are better ways than open confrontation.

 

You give callandor to someone you trust implicitly.  CK stays with Rand, and Rand alone as we all know.  If a darkfriend stabs the guy with callandor then the Aiel and Asha'man guarding him failed.  They kill the guy who did it and pass callandor to the next Asha'man / AS circle just like Rand had set up when he cleansed Saidin.

 

Which is less of an issue when they will not be drawn up on opposite sides of a big field. Their are Darkfriend and Dreadlords among the forces of the Light.

 

If there is no 'big field' where two armies are meeting then what exactly is Tarmon Gaidon?  Are you suggesting there just isn't going to be a war between the two sides?

 

Basically you are trying to shift the argument.  If there is a war between two armies the army with more Sa'Angreal and channelers will win.  Rand has that.  Nothing you've said matters, as it doesn't address that point.

 

A few spies is not going to stop Rand from winning.  Either they leave his forces to join the shadow openly (like Taim will), or they hide among his forces when Rand guns down the Shadow.  As soon as they reveal themselves the light side channelers will kill them.  The spies may do a little damage, but hardly enough to matter.

 

The worst thing they could possibly do is kill Rand, but since the Shadow wants Rand alive that won't happen.

 

All infiltrated. It's not a numbers game. It's not "my hundred beats your ten", it's "ten of your hundred are really mine. But I'm not going to tell you which ones."

 

Actually yes it is a numbers game.  If I have 100 AS and you have 10 spies you can do some damage to me, but I'm still going to win.  Your 10 aren't going to kill my hundred even if you get surprise.

 

We've seen channelers counter a greater number of channelers. It's not a numbers game. You don't win just because you have more people.

 

We saw AS counter wise ones who were just learning to fight for the first time ever at Dumai Wells. In a normal fight the side with more skilled channelers wins.  50 shadow channlers are not going to stop 500 light side channelers.  To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

 

This is further true because Rand has two Sa'Angreal the shadow simply cannot match.  

 

The early books also gave us the impression that AS knew a lot more than later turned out to be the case. The information we got was wrong.

 

You're repeating yourself now.  I realize this and have already agreed with it.  My problem still remains.  Having the AS look like incompetent fools takes away from the series and is unrealistic in my opinion.  Its also degrading to women because it suggests that they can't look beyond their own pride long enough to make an intelligent decision.

 

From any reasonable perspective.

 

And we come again to the heart of the problem with discussing anything with you Ares.  You are a fan boy through and through, and will brook no criticism of the WoT no matter how well founded it is.

 

Simply saying 'nuh uh' whenever someone brings up a problem with the series doesn't make the argument go away, but good try. Nor does it make the persepective of those who disagree with you unreasonable.

 

It depends how it's handled. There is not set maximum number. Handle it badly and they won't accept it once. Handle it well every time and they'll still be with you after the tenth, the hundredth, the thousandth time

 

Agreed.  Unfortunately, in too many instances RJ handled it badly.

 

 

And they are supposed to. When initially seen, they looked impressive. The more we see, the more we realise their flaws

 

If some of them were flawed I could buy this.  Nearly all of them being flawed not only makes no sense, but it isn't very fun to read about.  So often people talk about good political intrigue, and why Jordan's isn't.  Its because most of his characters are morons who make irrational decisions.  

 

Four times counts as constant? In eleven books?

 

Yes, bringing back four forsaken in 11 books feels contrived.  It suggests that all the work Rand went through to kill them was pointless, and it lets us know that the DO will just keep bringing them back as needed.

 

They seem to be doing alright. What with the winning, and all.

 

How are they winning again? They've lost every skirmish.  Most of them have died once.  They haven't killed a single light side main character.  None of the Ta'veren, Elayne, Min, Avi, Egwene, Lan, Nyneave, Moraine have died.  Instead the forsaken get slaughtered by these people, many of whom are barely trained teenagers.

 

The Shadow isn't winning.  Its losing everywhere.  Again, their only hope is that Rand is too insane and fails.  They've done nothing to ensure victory at Tarmon Gaidon, at least nothing the reader has been shown and really that's the only thing that matters.

 

Illian. Tear. Seanchan. Andor. Arad Doman. The Shaido. The White Tower.

 

Samael did nothing in Illian for several books, and then got crushed so badly by Rand that the Dragon lost hardly any troops.  Rand took tear and Callandor away from them.  Rand took Andor when he killed Ravhin.  They don't control Arad Doman, and the best they could do was make a little chaos there.

 

They don't control the Shaido.  Sammael scattered them around, but this has hardly created any large problems for Rand.  Nor is it the same as building a coalition of nations to back the shadow at Tarmon Gaidon.  

 

They don't control the White Tower and have not succeeded in turning it against Rand.  You listed a bunch of examples, but all of them were bad.  None of them show the Shadow controlling a nation.  They show Rand beating their ass and taking a nation away from him, which makes him look stronger and then weaker.

 

Face it, they've failed everywhere they meet Rand.  They are poor villians who accomplish nothing.  Go read A Song of fire & Ice and you'll see villians who actually manage to accomplish things.  Want to see an example of the evil army being built to oppose the light?  Read some of the scenes in Lord of the Rings.

 

I stand by my point.  The forsaken have won no victories and control no nations to send against Rand.  The only thing they accomplished was making it take a little longer for Rand to seize control of the world.

 

We saw Sammaeal smash an army, single handed.

 

When did this happen?

 

We saw him join a plan to have Rand face four Chosen at once after luring him into a trap.

 

Oooh...he joined a plan that failed miserably.  How impressive.  This after sending a note to Rand begging him not to attack since he knew he'd get his ass kicked.

 

We saw him ward both SL and Illian (he was also cited as a specialist in defensive warfare).

 

And look how effective those wards were?  In a matter of minutes Rand overwhelmed the city and took it from Sammael anyway.  His 'plan' was to set some wards and you consider that impressive?  He lost and lost quickly to a half trained boy who herds sheep.  I hardly consider that grounds to declare him a great general, and once again I have to point out that he did nothing of any import before dying.

 

He changed them in the first book - Fain survived. Then in the second - MS tries to get Rand. It waits for him, tries to leave the Ways.

 

How do either of these changes make it so Mashin Shin wouldn't kill trollocs in the ways?  They don't.

 

No, it comes across as a mystery. RJ wrote a fair few of them into his books. We have not yet been given the answer. We have not yet been given the answer to Asmo, yet, and it was two books before we learnt who sent the Trollocs that saved Rand in the Stone at the start of TSR. Not a mistake. Intentional.

 

Asmo's death was presented as a mystery.  As the reader we saw him die but didn't know who did it.  This was not presented as a mystery.  If it were we'd have had Rand say something to the effect of, "How did the shadow get so many trollocs through the ways without Mashin Shin killing them?"

 

We were never given that, nor has this been mentioned in any way.  That makes it an oversight.

 

The role Trollocs filled? Cannon fodder. They still do.

 

So when the first trolloc gets up from the ground and speaks to Rand in EotW you considered them to be cannon fodder?  That's certainly not the feeling I took away.  I was scared, or at least scared for Rand.  Trollocs presented a very real chance of killing our main characters, they weren't cannon fodder.

 

The Shadow have hundreds of Dreadlords, infiltrated throughout the Light. If Rand had 10,000 Asha'man, some of them would be of the Shadow. What happens when one of them poisons a well? Or launches a Deathgate at the Light? Or calls down lightning among them?

 

If they poison a well some people die.  If they launch a deathgate some people die.  If they call down lightning some people die.  They the light side fries the spy who launched the lightning or the deathgate, and the traitor is killed.

 

In the meantime since the shadow's dreadlords are hiding amidst the light, the light side wipes out he massive trolloc army with little effort.

 

The bickering apprently did nothing to stop the ever growing popularity of the series. In fact, the parts relating to the White Tower are the ones I am most looking froward to in the upcoming views, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. It's such a fascinating tangle. The Tower, the Rebels, the Seanchan, the BA, the hunters, Elaida.

 

The bickering drove a number of people from the series.  As popular as it is, a number of people abandoned it and consider RJs latest books crap.  This tendency was a massive departure from the early books, and as popular as the series is it would be moreso had the latter books been cleaner and better written.

 

Its great that you love these parts.  Not everyone does.

 

Only to those who don't pay attention. If we are told these are exceptional, then why the problem if they are shown to be exceptional?

 

Because Moraine was exceptional too.  She wasn't some random scrub Aes Sedai.  She was one of the most powerful in centuries.  What she can do with an angreal is not even close to what a bunch of nameless Asha'man and AS accomplish in the later book.

 

This is power creep and is a clear oversight on RJs part.  He changed what was possible with the power in the later books without realizing what that would have allowed Moraine to do in the early ones.

 

Why? They're only Trollocs.

 

So your argument is that Taim shouldn't have attacked at night because 'it was only trollocs'?  That makes no sense.  Attacking at night would have been a better move, period.  Not doing so cost him his chance to kill Rand, thus making it a bad decision.  Which is, as I've stated, the only kind we see the forsaken make whenever a militiary decision is called for.

 

She reduced Arad Doman to chaos. She killed Asmo (probably - must keep Asha'man Kovan happy). She helped reduce Shara to chaos. She fought at the Cleansing.

 

Graendel reduced Arad Doman to chaos, I'll give her that.  How has that slowed Rand down in the slightest?  We don't know that she reduced Shara to chaos.  She's intimated that she's been there, but we've seen nothing to show what effect she had there.  She fought at the cleansing, but she also lost thus accomplishing nothing once again.

 

We don't know what he's done. We have much speculation, but we don't know. That's not the same as he has done nothing. Quite the reverse - the end of LoC indicates he has done something ("Have I not done well, Great Lord?").

 

This is the worst argument I've heard in a while.  My whole point is that we haven't seen the forsaken make any good military decisions, and that they haven't shown a general worthy of the name.

 

Suggesting that Demandred might have accomplished something the reader hasn't seen in 11 books is irrelevant to the discussion.  Maybe he has, but if the reader never sees it how does that matter?  

 

Everything we've seen is the forsaken getting their asses handed to them in combat.  You know, the great generals from the AoL with super powerful weaves we've never seen in the current age?  Yeah those guys.  If they really are that powerful we should have seen them do ANYTHING to support it in the 11 books we've read.

 

We haven't and not even you seem able to dispute that.  The best you can come up with is some slim conjecture on what might be the case.

 

In the Third Age? No. But there's more to winning wars than winning battles. It's about when you fight. Good generals can win without a battle.

 

Good generals win battles.  If you never fight one that doesn't make you a good general.  There is more to winning war than winning battles, but as I already pointed out you still need to win at least some of the battles to win a war.

 

And denied Egwene her Dreams, and possibly Compelled her. And killed a couple of Sisters. And Eben.

 

Yes because denying her dreams and giving her headaches stopped Egwene from taking control of the Salidar Aes Sedai.  Oh wait, no it didn't.  It had no visible effect we could see other than making her crave Tylenol.

 

*gasp* And killed two sisters?  Whoah, now the light is doomed.  As cool as Eben was (I liked him) killing him is hardly that big of a deal.  So basically your whole argument is that one of the mighty forsaken killed two AS and an Asha'man.

 

That's the epic power you expect one of the most powerful channelers from the AoL to demonstrate?  My opinion of what someone that powerful and ancient should be able to accomplish is just a bit higher.

 

So must the OP. It's possible to learn quickly, but it can still take time. And which other fantasy series? You surely do not claim to speak for all of them?

 

Lord of the Rings.  A Song of Fire and Ice.  Memory, Sorrow and Thorn.  Robin Hobb's Assassin Trilogy.  Runelords.  Do you need me to go on?  I don't 'speak' for them.  I've read them and seen how they handle magic.  In none of them can someone instantly learn massively powerful spells with no effort.

 

Well, there are a lot of weaves. And some are more complex than others. A lot of people have blocks. Some will take practice, fine control. Others can be picked up very quickly.

 

Not a single person at the manor exhibits any of these problems though.  They all instantly and flawlessly picked up the weaves.

 

RJ didn't. His readership grew.

 

And it will continue to grow.  Yet he will always have a large chunk of readers leave the series in disgust because of the later books.  This is a pity, but its also a fact.  

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Alivia fought off CyndaneFear - the strongest female channeler in existence - on her own,

Yes, she fought (with an angreal).

 

Flinn's circle was pretty powerful, but the central point is that Cads knew exactly where he was.

They couldn't shoot at him while he was close to Flinn & the rest. Not that I think he did anything wrong when he went away from that circle... I think he did the "right" thing under the circumstances.

 

 

PS: For a non-native speaker, you're amazing fluent! I'm impressed, since I can only claim literacy in French, I can't even speak it any more.

Thanks a lot. I do my best.