The one power is cheap

[Ashaman Kovan]

I liked the way Terry Goodkind used magic in battles.

Heretic! Burn him!

 

I say we burn you first...With fire that's...Hotter than regular fire...Maybe even Wizards Fire...Yeah.  ;D

 

I'll get back to you as soon as I discover how to conjure it....

[Arkelias]

I can very much see the problem many people have with the power creep in the series, though it doesn't bother me as much.  In the early books what we assumed was capable with the power was nowhere near what it can actually do.

 

You looked at Moraine and the fact that she could throw a fireball that might kill a trolloc or two, and that made our eyes goggle.  It was *gasp* the one power and man was it strong.

 

Fast forward to one of my least favorite scenes in the series.  One hundred thousand trollocs, not a thousand or ten thousand, one hundred thousand trollocs rush a handful of people who can channel.  Not a single one lived.  Not a single channeler on Rand's side was hurt.

 

Why did RJ choose to use so many?  How did they even get there?  Its unclear.  What does seem clear is that RJ was trying to top himself by using such a large number.  Like everything else in the series the numbers just keep getting bigger.  Remember the few thousand troops in EoTW holding Tarwin's Gap?

 

Now look how many troops the borderlands have.  Its hundreds of thousands.  These things seemed to change over time and we as the reader are left a bit confused.  That's far more than we ever would have expected, especially given the problems in the first book.

 

If the borderlands really had that many troops they'd have sent more to Tarwin's Gap.  If you have 50,000 troops per nation I'm sure at least 1,000 could have come from each area.  The bottom line is that I think RJ lost track of some of the numbers, and his ideas changed over the years.

 

Anyway, the 100,000 trolloc scene destroyed any fear the reader might have had about trollocs.  No longer are they the ogier sized scary beast that Rand first encountered in Edmond's Field.  No longer are Fade's to be feared.  Now they are shock troops designed to be killed en masse.  Their only purpose is to tire out the channelers on the other side.

 

When bloodandbloodyashes talks about the series losing that epic feel I think what he means is that the fights now feel trivial.  There is no sense of suspense to the reader, because we are well aware that a single Asha'man could destroy dozens or even hundreds of trollocs.  How do you fear them anymore when they go down so easily?

 

This is particularly difficult to swallow when Moraine was one of the strongest living Aes Sedai and she struggled with a handful.  Half trained boys shouldn't eclipse her level of power so easily, as it cheapens her accomplishments and makes her look weak.

 

People with the power were supposed to be incredibly rare, and your average person had never even met someone who could channel.  That was the feel the early books had.  The later suggest there are thousands and thousands of people out there who can channel, just no one knows about them until now.  That's hard for the reader because moments where the author says 'Surprise!  Remember everything I let you believe?  Its all wrong and here's why!' are only effective a few times.  Keep pulling the same trick and your reader gets upset.

 

The continuous power creep does cheapen the series and take away from the wonder in the early books, at least in my opinion.  In some ways that was inevitable, and I actually didn't have a problem with the way the one power was used until 100,000 trollocs were downed with it.  That was the breaking point for me, since it didn't even require an angreal on anyone's part.

[Mr. Micawber]

I can very much see the problem many people have with the power creep in the series, though it doesn't bother me as much.  In the early books what we assumed was capable with the power was nowhere near what it can actually do.

 

You looked at Moraine and the fact that she could throw a fireball that might kill a trolloc or two, and that made our eyes goggle.  It was *gasp* the one power and man was it strong.

 

Fast forward to one of my least favorite scenes in the series.  One hundred thousand trollocs, not a thousand or ten thousand, one hundred thousand trollocs rush a handful of people who can channel.  Not a single one lived.  Not a single channeler on Rand's side was hurt.

 

Why did RJ choose to use so many?  How did they even get there?  Its unclear.  What does seem clear is that RJ was trying to top himself by using such a large number.  Like everything else in the series the numbers just keep getting bigger.  Remember the few thousand troops in EoTW holding Tarwin's Gap?

 

Now look how many troops the borderlands have.  Its hundreds of thousands.  These things seemed to change over time and we as the reader are left a bit confused.  That's far more than we ever would have expected, especially given the problems in the first book.

 

If the borderlands really had that many troops they'd have sent more to Tarwin's Gap.  If you have 50,000 troops per nation I'm sure at least 1,000 could have come from each area.  The bottom line is that I think RJ lost track of some of the numbers, and his ideas changed over the years.

 

Anyway, the 100,000 trolloc scene destroyed any fear the reader might have had about trollocs.  No longer are they the ogier sized scary beast that Rand first encountered in Edmond's Field.  No longer are Fade's to be feared.  Now they are shock troops designed to be killed en masse.  Their only purpose is to tire out the channelers on the other side.

 

When bloodandbloodyashes talks about the series losing that epic feel I think what he means is that the fights now feel trivial.  There is no sense of suspense to the reader, because we are well aware that a single Asha'man could destroy dozens or even hundreds of trollocs.  How do you fear them anymore when they go down so easily?

 

This is particularly difficult to swallow when Moraine was one of the strongest living Aes Sedai and she struggled with a handful.  Half trained boys shouldn't eclipse her level of power so easily, as it cheapens her accomplishments and makes her look weak.

 

People with the power were supposed to be incredibly rare, and your average person had never even met someone who could channel.  That was the feel the early books had.  The later suggest there are thousands and thousands of people out there who can channel, just no one knows about them until now.  That's hard for the reader because moments where the author says 'Surprise!  Remember everything I let you believe?  Its all wrong and here's why!' are only effective a few times.  Keep pulling the same trick and your reader gets upset.

 

The continuous power creep does cheapen the series and take away from the wonder in the early books, at least in my opinion.  In some ways that was inevitable, and I actually didn't have a problem with the way the one power was used until 100,000 trollocs were downed with it.  That was the breaking point for me, since it didn't even require an angreal on anyone's part.

 

I could forgive PowerCreep if he ever, *ever*, *EVER*, bothered to kill off important characters we *care* about.

 

Instead, RJ tried to push off the mass suicide of the Amayar as the big "shocker" of KOD.

 

We didn't even flaming have a POV from them until we had a few paragraphs in WH.

 

A major problem for me about the second half of the series has been the lack of fear I have for the characters and the insane power that most of them seem to have accumulated.

 

I mean, Aviendha had no Talent, and then all of a sudden, *bam*, she can tell us what ter'angreal do. I call BS.

[bloodandbloodyashes]

I can very much see the problem many people have with the power creep in the series, though it doesn't bother me as much.  In the early books what we assumed was capable with the power was nowhere near what it can actually do.

 

You looked at Moraine and the fact that she could throw a fireball that might kill a trolloc or two, and that made our eyes goggle.  It was *gasp* the one power and man was it strong.

 

Fast forward to one of my least favorite scenes in the series.  One hundred thousand trollocs, not a thousand or ten thousand, one hundred thousand trollocs rush a handful of people who can channel.  Not a single one lived.  Not a single channeler on Rand's side was hurt.

 

Why did RJ choose to use so many?  How did they even get there?  Its unclear.  What does seem clear is that RJ was trying to top himself by using such a large number.  Like everything else in the series the numbers just keep getting bigger.  Remember the few thousand troops in EoTW holding Tarwin's Gap?

 

Now look how many troops the borderlands have.  Its hundreds of thousands.  These things seemed to change over time and we as the reader are left a bit confused.  That's far more than we ever would have expected, especially given the problems in the first book.

 

If the borderlands really had that many troops they'd have sent more to Tarwin's Gap.  If you have 50,000 troops per nation I'm sure at least 1,000 could have come from each area.  The bottom line is that I think RJ lost track of some of the numbers, and his ideas changed over the years.

 

Anyway, the 100,000 trolloc scene destroyed any fear the reader might have had about trollocs.  No longer are they the ogier sized scary beast that Rand first encountered in Edmond's Field.  No longer are Fade's to be feared.  Now they are shock troops designed to be killed en masse.  Their only purpose is to tire out the channelers on the other side.

 

When bloodandbloodyashes talks about the series losing that epic feel I think what he means is that the fights now feel trivial.  There is no sense of suspense to the reader, because we are well aware that a single Asha'man could destroy dozens or even hundreds of trollocs.  How do you fear them anymore when they go down so easily?

 

This is particularly difficult to swallow when Moraine was one of the strongest living Aes Sedai and she struggled with a handful.  Half trained boys shouldn't eclipse her level of power so easily, as it cheapens her accomplishments and makes her look weak.

 

People with the power were supposed to be incredibly rare, and your average person had never even met someone who could channel.  That was the feel the early books had.  The later suggest there are thousands and thousands of people out there who can channel, just no one knows about them until now.  That's hard for the reader because moments where the author says 'Surprise!  Remember everything I let you believe?  Its all wrong and here's why!' are only effective a few times.  Keep pulling the same trick and your reader gets upset.

 

The continuous power creep does cheapen the series and take away from the wonder in the early books, at least in my opinion.  In some ways that was inevitable, and I actually didn't have a problem with the way the one power was used until 100,000 trollocs were downed with it.  That was the breaking point for me, since it didn't even require an angreal on anyone's part.

 

Thank you Arkelias, this is exactly the message i was trying to get through and you explained it better than i ever could :)

[Muad Cheade]

Fast forward to one of my least favorite scenes in the series.  One hundred thousand trollocs, not a thousand or ten thousand, one hundred thousand trollocs rush a handful of people who can channel.  Not a single one lived.  Not a single channeler on Rand's side was hurt.

 

Well, you have to look at it this way. The channelers who were with Rand were among the strongest right now. Also, Asha'man are living weapons. They're created for combat and to kill. Aes Sedai are not (well, except the Green Ajah). Also, a few of them were armed with powerful ter'angreal. The Trollocs on the other hand, had no channelers to counter Rand's people and were their pretty much normal, stupid selves and just ran forward.

 

Why did RJ choose to use so many?  How did they even get there?  Its unclear.  What does seem clear is that RJ was trying to top himself by using such a large number.  Like everything else in the series the numbers just keep getting bigger.  Remember the few thousand troops in EoTW holding Tarwin's Gap?

 

The Blight has been pretty quiet for a while. The Dark One and Moridin have been gathering their forces. Doubtlessly, they have close to a million Trollocs which is why it is possible to send 100,000 Trollocs and explains why Moridin was angry with them being pretty much wasted. You have to remember that during the Trolloc Wars they outnumbered human armies every time and that period was a mini-Age of Legends, meaning population levels were large.

 

Now look how many troops the borderlands have.  Its hundreds of thousands.  These things seemed to change over time and we as the reader are left a bit confused.  That's far more than we ever would have expected, especially given the problems in the first book.

 

Actually, it's quite believable. The size of armies has grown in realtively short times in the Early Modern period. Napoleon's standing army was about 500,000 men when years before it had been around 50,000. In Artur Hawkwing's time and during the Compact of the Ten Nations, standing armies were in the hundreds of thousands at the minimum. My point is during times of war and conflict like in the WoT, the sizes of armies tends to grow as you can pretty much never run out of men.

 

For example, these are the figures of armies from the Battle of Shining Walls (20 years before the story starts):

 

The Grand Alliance mustered approximately 170,000 troops, consisting of the following contingents:

 

    * 29,000 from Shienar under Lord Agelmar Jagad.

    * 28,000 from Andor under Lord Aranvor Naldwinn.

    * 26,000 from Illian under King Mattin Stepaneos den Balgar.

    * 24,000 from Tear under the High Lord Astoril Damara.

    * 21,000 from Arafel under Lord Hirare Nachiman.

    * 12,000 from Tar Valon under Captain Azil Mareed.

    * c. 7,000 from Cairhien under King Laman Damodred.

    * 5,000 from Ghealdan under Lord Aleshin Talvaen.

    * 4,000 from Amadicia under Lord Aeman Senhold.

    * 4,000 of the Children of the Light under Lord Captain Commander Pedron Niall.

    * c. 4,000 from Murandy under a rotating council of nobles.

    * 3,500 from Altara under a rotating council of nobles.

    * an unknown number of mercenaries, irregulars and minor forces from other countries, including a small force from Arad Doman under General Rodel Ituralde, a detachment of the Winged Guards of Mayene and even some surviving veterens of Malkier under al'Lan Mandragoran.

 

In addition, mercenaries and irregulars from the remaining nations and city-states also fought. Armies from Saldaea and Kandor had set out to join the Alliance, but been recalled to deal with a fresh incursion of Shadowspawn out of the Blight.

From:http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Shining_Walls

 

Also, what differentiates the Borderland armies from those of the Southern nations is that nearly every Borderland man has fought against the Blight and are very capable fighters. Elayne notes this because although every nation is capable of increasing their army sizes, the majority of the new troops will be inexperienced unlike the Borderlanders who have been fighting all their lives.

 

If the borderlands really had that many troops they'd have sent more to Tarwin's Gap.  If you have 50,000 troops per nation I'm sure at least 1,000 could have come from each area.  The bottom line is that I think RJ lost track of some of the numbers, and his ideas changed over the years.

 

This is taken from Mr. Micawber's post in the "set the horde loose thread."

 

And the problem with Tarwin's Gap was pretty clearly that the Shienarans had "somehow" managed to miss the massing of a force until it was essentially too late to call for reserves from the rest of the Blightborder. The Shadow had been very sly that year, by pushing nasty raids along the entire border, but masking their main concentration point.

 

Essentially, none of the four countries knew who would be the schwerpunkt of the upcoming Shadow offensive, even though the entire Borderlands knew a blow was coming. That meant the other three rulers held back sending anything to Shienar until after the Shadow made its intentions clear. The problem with that strategy was pretty simple. None of the other nations' support would arrive until after the Shadow's blows were already falling. Now, Shienar could have extracted a fearsome price from that Trolloc army, but it still would have been wrecked. That, in turn, would have forced the other three nations to pour their own reserves into stopping the advance.

 

Anyway, the 100,000 trolloc scene destroyed any fear the reader might have had about trollocs.  No longer are they the ogier sized scary beast that Rand first encountered in Edmond's Field.  No longer are Fade's to be feared.  Now they are shock troops designed to be killed en masse.  Their only purpose is to tire out the channelers on the other side.

 

Any army that goes against powerful channelers, without any of their own to counter them, is at a severe disadvantage. That is why the Amadacians and Whitecloaks under King Ailron and Eamon Valda were decimated when they fought the Seanchan.

 

This is particularly difficult to swallow when Moraine was one of the strongest living Aes Sedai and she struggled with a handful.  Half trained boys shouldn't eclipse her level of power so easily, as it cheapens her accomplishments and makes her look weak.

 

Moiraine wasn't trained to be a living weapon and to make human bodies explode like a melon. Also, the achievements of Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne have eclipsed her although some came from Moghedien.

 

People with the power were supposed to be incredibly rare, and your average person had never even met someone who could channel.  That was the feel the early books had.  The later suggest there are thousands and thousands of people out there who can channel, just no one knows about them until now.  That's hard for the reader because moments where the author says 'Surprise!  Remember everything I let you believe?  Its all wrong and here's why!' are only effective a few times.  Keep pulling the same trick and your reader gets upset.

 

Robert Jordan has consistently said it was 1% of the population. If the current population is 10 million, that means there are 100,000 channelers right now. And currently, both sides are not just looking for people who have the spark but can also learn.

 

The continuous power creep does cheapen the series and take away from the wonder in the early books, at least in my opinion.  In some ways that was inevitable, and I actually didn't have a problem with the way the one power was used until 100,000 trollocs were downed with it.  That was the breaking point for me, since it didn't even require an angreal on anyone's part.

 

If you feel this way, you should be thankful you weren't in the Age of Legends where the strength of channelers was greater.

 

I was surprised by Aviendha's ability to know the purpose of ter'angreal but then again, she is one of the few people who can Unweave and Read Residues so it's not that shocking in retrospect.

[scott_swampy]

This is particularly difficult to swallow when Moraine was one of the strongest living Aes Sedai and she struggled with a handful.  Half trained boys shouldn't eclipse her level of power so easily, as it cheapens her accomplishments and makes her look weak.

 

Moiraine wasn't trained to be a living weapon and to make human bodies explode like a melon. Also, the achievements of Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne have eclipsed her although some came from Moghedien.

 

Plus we have been told all along that men are stronger in the One power than women.

[OptimusPrime]

I mean, Aviendha had no Talent, and then all of a sudden, *bam*, she can tell us what ter'angreal do. I call BS

 

Come on Ark, how would anything like that Talent be noticed when she was a Maiden, when she couldnt possibly have had chance ot notice the ability? You could call BS on a lot of things using that same line of thought. RJ will have known from the start that Aviendha could do that.

[Mr Ares]

How did they even get there?

Through the Ways. Hence being told earlier in the book that thousands of Trollocs had been sent into the Ways.

There is no sense of suspense to the reader, because we are well aware that a single Asha'man could destroy dozens or even hundreds of trollocs.

We have seen them replaced with greater threats, one that can't be dealt with just by a single Asha'man. Much of the conflict has been against groups other than the Shadow, or in ways more subtle than pitched battle, or both. We might not fear a Trolloc, but the BA are still there, as are the rogue Asha'man, and the Chosen, and the Gholam, the the Seanchan, etc.

This is particularly difficult to swallow when Moraine was one of the strongest living Aes Sedai and she struggled with a handful.

The difference is both because the group of Asha'man (with AS) had new, more effective weaves, and were against massed Trollocs - a big group together is easier to hit.

People with the power were supposed to be incredibly rare

The reason for that was in a big part the AS not searching for people - they are blinded by their own reputation. People should want to be AS. If fewer people are coming to be AS, that must mean fewer girls out there. They barely scratched the surface in terms of the numbers they could have, and the reasons for that are right there on the page. Little to no active recruiting, cut off point in terms of age, bad PR. All things that could be dealt with, but they chose not to. So thousands lived and died never knowing they could be AS, or not wanting to be. It's not unsatisfying, because it's not a cheat.

[Nightstrike]

The channelers are rare, and most of them are really weak. At least compared to Moiraine and those even stronger than her. There are more novices now than there are Aes Sedai. Most of the novices are too weak to become Accepted. "Most" means that they are more than 50 percent. Not even 37.5 percent, which is the number of all potential channelers that can become Aes Sedai.

 

Most of the Aes Sedai can't even make a Gateway that is big enough for them to put an arm through. Sure, there are some super-strong channelers. But there are several Forsaken that can counter them. And we also have the DO, the gholam, Shaidar Haran, Fain and hordes of other enemies. It doesn't matter how strong you are if you're taken by surprise, or if you're not fast enough to kill a draghkar that comes at you. Or something else, for that matter.

 

So, yes, the story has room for unexpected events.

 

 

[Arkelias]

Wow, looks like lots of people responded to my post =O

 

Come on Ark, how would anything like that Talent be noticed when she was a Maiden, when she couldnt possibly have had chance ot notice the ability? You could call BS on a lot of things using that same line of thought. RJ will have known from the start that Aviendha could do that.

 

Err, I didn't post that Optimus.  However, I'll play devil's advocate and pretend I did.  I think the problem the OP had and why he brought it up is that everyone has to have a talent or power.  Couldn't she have just been strong in the power?  Did she need a lost talent?  Now, bear in mind it wasn't my argument so I'm just assuming that was the OP's issue with Avi getting the talent.

 

 

Well, you have to look at it this way. The channelers who were with Rand were among the strongest right now. Also, Asha'man are living weapons. They're created for combat and to kill. Aes Sedai are not (well, except the Green Ajah). Also, a few of them were armed with powerful ter'angreal. The Trollocs on the other hand, had no channelers to counter Rand's people and were their pretty much normal, stupid selves and just ran forward.

 

You don't think a thousand trollocs on 50 channelers would have had the same impact?  Or even ten thousand?  My issue is that it was 100,000 trollocs.  That's just a number pulled out of his hat to seem impressive, but isn't realisitic.

 

Even if 100,000 trollocs could have moved through the ways why send so many with absolutely no backup from dreadlords?  If you are probing Rand's defenses 1,000 trollocs works just fine.  If you want to take him out then only an idiot would send them in without backup.  So, there was no reason to send so many like this.  It was stupid on the part of whoever ordered it.

 

Now I want you to think about the numbers.  50 channelers on 100,000 trollocs.  That's 2,000 and trollocs and about 20 fades per person.  None of these Asha'man have been trained for longer than six months except Logain and Rand.

 

The Blight has been pretty quiet for a while. The Dark One and Moridin have been gathering their forces. Doubtlessly, they have close to a million Trollocs which is why it is possible to send 100,000 Trollocs and explains why Moridin was angry with them being pretty much wasted. You have to remember that during the Trolloc Wars they outnumbered human armies every time and that period was a mini-Age of Legends, meaning population levels were large.

 

I have to go back to why.  What was the point of this assault?  If the shadow has a million trollocs they lost 10% of their army in a matter of minutes and it gained them absolutely nothing.  You don't see that as moronic?

 

Again, why weren't there any channellers at all with them?  Just a few would have turned the tide.  It's yet another example of how the shadow could be out foxed by a 5 year old with down syndrome.

 

 

Actually, it's quite believable. The size of armies has grown in realtively short times in the Early Modern period. Napoleon's standing army was about 500,000 men when years before it had been around 50,000. In Artur Hawkwing's time and during the Compact of the Ten Nations, standing armies were in the hundreds of thousands at the minimum. My point is during times of war and conflict like in the WoT, the sizes of armies tends to grow as you can pretty much never run out of men.

 

I'm not saying the size of the armies is unrealistic.  I'm saying if they were as large as we see in the later books I don't understand why they couldn't send more troops to Tarwin's Gap.  Its not a mystery that the shadow attacks through that pass every year.  All the borderlands knew it.

 

Also, what differentiates the Borderland armies from those of the Southern nations is that nearly every Borderland man has fought against the Blight and are very capable fighters. Elayne notes this because although every nation is capable of increasing their army sizes, the majority of the new troops will be inexperienced unlike the Borderlanders who have been fighting all their lives.

 

All the more reason the average borderland citizen would have come to Tarwin's gap.  They know the stakes.

 

Any army that goes against powerful channelers, without any of their own to counter them, is at a severe disadvantage. That is why the Amadacians and Whitecloaks under King Ailron and Eamon Valda were decimated when they fought the Seanchan.

 

An army is pointless.  If you can wipe out 100,000 trollocs and fades with 50 channelers you won't need to bring a single soldier to Tarmon Gaidon.  You can, but they are going to be there to carry your luggage not to fight.

 

Moiraine wasn't trained to be a living weapon and to make human bodies explode like a melon. Also, the achievements of Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne have eclipsed her although some came from Moghedien.

 

Moraine has been an Aes Sedai for over 20 years.  No Asha'man has existed for longer than a year, and most have only had a few months of training.  This training hasn't been refined over thousands of years either.  Its one self taught guy teaching a bunch of other people who have no clue.

 

Robert Jordan has consistently said it was 1% of the population.

 

This is probably the thing that irks me the most about these boards.  I'm sure RJ must have said this, because I hear it on these boards all the time.  This is never mentioned in the books.

 

As the reader you shouldn't need to attend special interviews with the writer to understand that story.  RJ presented a world where the one power was staggeringly rare.  This is what is gotten across in the early books, and not once is the reader told that everybody and their brother can learn to channel.

 

This gives RJ the appearance of ret-conning his own story.  If he wanted there to be that many channelers he could have explained the 1% potential in the early books.  Since he didn't we as the reader are left with one glaring fact.

 

The White Tower is incompetent.  They are too stupid to realize how many girls out there could be trained and to gather them effectively.  Nor do they realize the Windfiners, Kin or Aiel have so many women who can channel.  These are the people jerking thrones around like puppets?  Really?

 

This undermines the readers awe of Aes Sedai, which has already been eroded by seeing the women in action.  These are not politically astute master planners intent on guiding the world.  They are a bunch of incompetent self important fools who want to run the world.

 

If you feel this way, you should be thankful you weren't in the Age of Legends where the strength of channelers was greater

 

You misunderstand me.  The power level isn't the issue.  The power level compared to when the series started is.  If we were reading about the AoL and the power level was set in the first book it would be easier to accept.

 

How quickly the one power 'comes back' to Randland is hard to swallow.  In a matter of about a year the number of active channelers has increased by a factor of five.  Granted, many of these were simply groups that the reader wasn't familiar with.  It just irks me that every last group of channelers outside the WT is not only super secret, but successfully super secret and the WT never found out.

 

Through the Ways. Hence being told earlier in the book that thousands of Trollocs had been sent into the Ways.

 

They also said only small groups could be moved through the ways, because the larger the group the more chance Mashin Shin would show up.  Also, think of logisitcs.  Many of those bridges could only be crossed one at a time.  How long a line is 100,000 trollocs?  How long would it take them to exit through a gate?  Mashin shin would have been on them like flies on honey, and most of them would have died before they could get out.

 

We have seen them replaced with greater threats, one that can't be dealt with just by a single Asha'man. Much of the conflict has been against groups other than the Shadow, or in ways more subtle than pitched battle, or both. We might not fear a Trolloc, but the BA are still there, as are the rogue Asha'man, and the Chosen, and the Gholam, the the Seanchan, etc.

 

They have been replaced by greater threats, but in so doing it has trivialized many of the threats the reader saw in earlier books.  I believe that's the issue our OP is having, and I can see why.

 

In the early books characters feared all shadowspawn.  Now, other than the Gholam (there is only one we've seen), no one fears any of them.  'Oh look its a Drakar bzzzorch guess I'll just tag it with a fireball'.  There is no fear or wonder when any of these threats is seen.

 

Its the Dragon Ball Z problem.  If you constantly stretch the bounds of power in your world you eventually hit the level of ludicrous.  Plus, does anyone fear the Seanchan?  Really?  I see them as a military threat but nothing about them evokes the fear that I had as a reader in the early books when the character were being chased by trollocs and fades.

 

The difference is both because the group of Asha'man (with AS) had new, more effective weaves, and were against massed Trollocs - a big group together is easier to hit.

 

New effective weaves that they see Rand use once and all instantly master.  Instantly.  Also, many of them were on different sides of the house and shouldn't have been able to learn the weaves as you need to see one to learn it. 

 

Even if they did know its 100,000 trollocs.  A hundred thousand.  So every last one of those channelers could kill 2000 trollocs and 20 fades?  I just don't buy it.  If it is true, then normal troops are quite literally pointless.  If one man with six months of training is that effective why would you do anything but go get more?

 

 

The reason for that was in a big part the AS not searching for people - they are blinded by their own reputation. People should want to be AS. If fewer people are coming to be AS, that must mean fewer girls out there. They barely scratched the surface in terms of the numbers they could have, and the reasons for that are right there on the page. Little to no active recruiting, cut off point in terms of age, bad PR. All things that could be dealt with, but they chose not to. So thousands lived and died never knowing they could be AS, or not wanting to be. It's not unsatisfying, because it's not a cheat.

 

Your reasoning here is not wrong Ares.  However, it does provoke a certain response from the reader.  We were told one thing and believed it.  We learn later that we are completely wrong and the WT has not a clue.  That undermined the sense of wonder and intrigue RJ was building, at least for many readers.

 

As I mentioned I have less issue with the power creep than many others.  Only the 100,000 trolloc scene is an issue for me.  The rest of their advancements may feel contrived at times, but its still a good story.

[Arkelias]

The channelers are rare, and most of them are really weak. At least compared to Moiraine and those even stronger than her. There are more novices now than there are Aes Sedai. Most of the novices are too weak to become Accepted. "Most" means that they are more than 50 percent. Not even 37.5 percent, which is the number of all potential channelers that can become Aes Sedai.

 

Most of the Aes Sedai can't even make a Gateway that is big enough for them to put an arm through. Sure, there are some super-strong channelers. But there are several Forsaken that can counter them. And we also have the DO, the gholam, Shaidar Haran, Fain and hordes of other enemies. It doesn't matter how strong you are if you're taken by surprise, or if you're not fast enough to kill a draghkar that comes at you. Or something else, for that matter.

 

So, yes, the story has room for unexpected events.

 

 

 

Looks like I missed your reply in my epic post Nightstrike so I wanted to address a couple of your points.

 

We are told over and over that most channelers are weak, but actions speak louder than words.  Every channeler we see can nuke down massive amounts of trollocs, especially among the Asha'man.  How many of them did we see struggle to burn down trollocs when Rand got attacked?  None.  They are all incredibily powerful, not weak.

 

If most novices are too weak to become accepted than most soldiers should be too weak to become dedicated, and soldiers shouldn't be able to accomplish much at all.  This is far from what we see presented at Dumai Wells or any other battle Asha'man are involved in. 

 

Also, the argument of a channeler being vulnerable to surprise attacks sort of loses something when Rand is caught in the biggest surprise attack every and calmly guns down all 100,000 foes.  Nor does it explain why the DO wouldnt have sent dreadlords to accompany his 100,000 troops.

[Nightstrike]

We are told over and over that most channelers are weak, but actions speak louder than words.  Every channeler we see can nuke down massive amounts of trollocs, especially among the Asha'man.  How many of them did we see struggle to burn down trollocs when Rand got attacked?  None.  They are all incredibily powerful, not weak.

I am convinced that the Asha'man are a lot stronger than Aes Sedai. I think the average of all men is somewhere around twice the average of Aes Sedai. Probably as compensation for the women's ability to form circles, and thereby being able to take down even the strongest of all men. Men are also stronger in Fire & Earth, probably also more Talented in those kinds of weaves. I think men make better weapons than women. That could explain how Moiraine had problems with trollocs in EotW. She was also 1 person in a dense forest. A forest that hadn't seen human habitation for a long time. Those Shadowspawn could probably get too close for comfort... That's how I imagine it, anyway. I don't know how it was intended, by RJ.

 

If most novices are too weak to become accepted than most soldiers should be too weak to become dedicated, and soldiers shouldn't be able to accomplish much at all.  This is far from what we see presented at Dumai Wells or any other battle Asha'man are involved in.

I think the reason that most novices are too weak for becoming Accepted is because many of them have been neglected by AS that have encountered stronger channelers in other parts of the country/whatever. They were never recruited before. Otherwise we would see roughly 62.5 percent of the novices being strong enough for reaching Aes Sedai.

 

Also, the argument of a channeler being vulnerable to surprise attacks sort of loses something when Rand is caught in the biggest surprise attack every and calmly guns down all 100,000 foes.  Nor does it explain why the DO wouldnt have sent dreadlords to accompany his 100,000 troops.

Yeah, but if a draghkar could sneak up behind someone, however strong they are, then they would be in danger anyway. I don't know who sent the trollocs. Someone Chosen, perhaps? Maybe they acted thoughtlessly without the DO's knowledge?

 

[Swigaro]

 

Also, the argument of a channeler being vulnerable to surprise attacks sort of loses something when Rand is caught in the biggest surprise attack every and calmly guns down all 100,000 foes.  Nor does it explain why the DO wouldnt have sent dreadlords to accompany his 100,000 troops.

 

You hit on an interesting point here.  But you phrase your argument as though we, and whoever planned the attack should have known it would be a waste of troops.  I think the fact that there was no channeler backup was a clear message from RJ as to who was behind the attack.  Until we see Rand and his group of the strongest and best outfitted Channelers take on a hord of trollocs that nicely decided to line up in big groups and run right at them, we, Rand's forces and IMO those that sent the attack had no clue how effective a group of entrenched channeler's could be against an exposed force.  There has been a great deal of speculation as to who, specificly was behind the attack.  I would contend that as we see Moridin angered by the waste of Trollocs, that the DO had nothing to do with ordering the attack.  One of the more popular theories is that Taim, having been raised to Chosen status, was behind the attack.    AoL Forsaken would likely have known it would be a futile wast of resources, giving more weight to the idea that a Third Ager was behind the attack.  

[Arkelias]

You hit on an interesting point here.  But you phrase your argument as though we, and whoever planned the attack should have known it would be a waste of troops. 

 

The thing is, Swig, it didn't need to be a wasted attack.  Let's assume your theory is correct and Taim is behind the attack.  Here's how I would have done it:

 

Rand and some Aes Sedai & Ashaman are in a small manor house.  They can see out the windows, so I attack at night.  The ten channelers I bring all throw massive fireballs at the house nuking it into splinters. 

 

Before the people inside can react I send in my infinite army of trollocs.  I and my fellow channelers hide and wait.  Whenever we see someone use the power we blow up the part of the house they are in.  Bam, game over Rand.

 

Now, I realize that would have ended the series so it couldn't go down that way.  But having the shadow once again make the world's most idiotic decision really undermines my interest in the series.  Can we get an enemy that actually makes intelligent decisions?  Just one? 

 

Any commander worth his salt would have come up with a better plan than, "Ok, everyone scream so that they know we are here.  Now, rush in across an open field in tightly packed groups so they can blow us up!"

 

Also, no one has addressed how the trollocs even got there.  They can't use gateways.  They didn't use the ways, because if they did most of them would have died from Mashin Shin.  Unless you're suggesting that maybe Taim sent 500,000 trollocs and these are just the survivors.

 

That could explain how Moiraine had problems with trollocs in EotW. She was also 1 person in a dense forest.

 

One person we're told is one of the strongest living Aes Sedai, and who has an angreal the entire time.  Maybe its the fact that she's a woman and is weak in fire and earth, but that doesn't wash to me.  I've seen plenty of female Aes Sedai bring the whup against shadowspawn since EotW.  The power newly trained Asha'man display makes Moraine look exceptionally weak, which I think sucks =(

 

Yeah, but if a draghkar could sneak up behind someone, however strong they are, then they would be in danger anyway.

 

This hasn't happened since book six.  No shadowspawn save the Gholam has been considered a threat for a LONG time in the series.  Remember when we worried for our heroes when they went one on one with a fade?  Now fights with fades take a couple of seconds at most and are considered trivial.  I guess that's more my point.

[Wesley_O]

If you talk about Moraine not fighting very well, have you not noticed how any of the other Aes Sedai fight? They all fight by throwing fire balls that kill a couple trollocs. As for how they were able to defeat the 100,000 trollocs, Rand was the only thing that saved them. Before Lews Therins took over Rand he didnt know weaves to kill more than a few trollocs either. Some of the weapons that LTT used also would have been fairly useless if the trollocs hadn't just rushed up head first. My guess is that this might have just been a show to one, at the least kill some people, but more so, show that the Shadow has 100,000 troops to throw around.

[Arkelias]

I understand that was RJs goal with the scene.  I just feel he broke his own internal consistency here.  I've still seen no explanation on how the troops could even have gotten there, much less what the shadow hoped to gain.

 

I guess my issue is that the attack made no sense from the Shadow's perspective, which makes it a clear attempt by the author to show up off some new weaves and what Rand can do *shrugs*

 

Rand wasn't powerful enough to save them by himself.  The trollocs were rushing from all sides, and his view was only of one direction.  Logain was at the same window facing the same direction.  Who was protecting the other sides?

 

The Aes Sedai and Asha'man.  The vast majority of those Aes Sedai should be weaker than Moraine, as we were told she was one of the strongest in generations.  The Asha'man couldn't see Rand making the weaves, yet mastered them instantly anyway.  It just doesn't wash with me.

 

Shouldn't they have needed, I don't know, training?  What's the point of either the white or black towers if you can just learn something by seeing it done once?  Especially in the middle of a combat situation?

[Nightstrike]

Maybe they were past the stage when they needed a lot of training. And maybe it's also a matter of talents/skills. I think most asha'man present were sparkers, maybe that could be important as well?

[Arkelias]

It still surprises me that they learned as quickly as they did.  In other parts of the series Aes Sedai make a huge fuss over how quickly people like Egwene or Elayne pick things up.

 

I was always under the impression that learning a weave was supposed to take some time, unless you had exceptional potential.  I thought only a very few prodigies could do that, especially from the lessons we saw illustrated during scenes in the white tower.

 

The fact that people who just started learning the power can do it seems a bit out of keeping with the rest of the series.  Especially so many of them learning the weaves so quickly, when we've never seen anything in the series to suggest that its possible.  I could see Logain doing it, just not every single last Asha'man.

[Durinax]

didnt rand also take the sharpest of the students, or the fastest learners? I thought he did after saying somethign like the slow learners will be dead soon if they hang around me

[Arkelias]

Maybe, but if they can all instantly learn weaves it certainly makes all our main characters look a lot less like prodigies and a lot more like average joes.  Maybe that was his goal.

 

Regardless, no one has ventured a guess to how the trollocs got there or why they weren't backed by people wielding the one power.  Anyone have a theory on why?

[Durinax]

it may have been a ploy to make rand think he has less time than he does so he rushes around, and like Perrin always says "haste ruins the iron" or some such

[Arkelias]

If that was the case wouldn't 5,000 trollocs have done the same thing?

[Durinax]

i dont think it would have done as well. I think that it was also to make rand think that the shadow has massive armies ready, and they did this by dispatching a large force as a assassination squad, I know I would assume that the shadow had massive armies after that, and I would rush to try and assemble my own armies to counter theirs

[Arkelias]

Wouldn't letting Rand know that there are huge armies of shadowspawn be a BAD thing?  Why would they want to tip their hand and show him what they can do?

 

Rand already has massive armies, including 160,000 Aiel.  Besides, what point is there to having an army at all?  He has Asha'man.  Why not gather more of them instead?

 

Even if it was a feint, how does getting Rand to build larger armies benefit the shadow?  They've lost a good chunk of their forces, tipped Rand off to the fact that they have massive armies, and really gained nothing except to force his followers to spend a few days on burial detail.

[Durinax]

because they know rand hasnt united the lands, and him gathering larger armies will allow DF to infiltrate, make other factions feel threatened of rand, force rand to move faster allowing for more mistakes, etc