Rand needs his hand back

[Majsju]

 

 

I'm starting to get the feeling that's the angle RJ is going for.  Its certainly how he's set Rand up since book six =/

 

Heh, I have had this feeling since the middle of TDR, and it is one of the reasons I got hooked a lot more on tWOT than with any other fantasy. I absolutely despise happy-puppy-rainbow endings, where all the good guys live happily ever after, all the bad guys either dies or learn the error of their ways, and there simply is no characters in the gray area inbetween white and black. And RJ seems to have set everything up for the greatest ending in the history of fantasy (history as in from Homer and forward).

[Arkelias]

You could definitely be right Maj.  We won't know until we see the books, but one thing is for certain...I'll be there reading them.  I prefer happier endings to books in most cases, but I do appreciate some of the harsher settings like Song of Fire and Ice.

 

In this case a lot of why I want things to end happily in the WoT is that I started reading it at such a young age.  Back then I was more into your traditional happy feel good fantasy.  My tastes have somewhat changed, but I still have that soft spot for Rand and company.

 

Either way at this point I just want the series to be over so I don't have to spend more years waiting =p

[Ashaman DeRouge]

Paraphrasing here but, hasn't it been mentioned time and time again that "Rand dosn't show up at the Last Battle and win. The Light only stands a chance if he does manage to get there. He has gone 14 rounds against the toughest opponent he's ever seen, he's beat up as hell, and the other guy isn't even trying yet. And now you've got to bring your best stuff"

 

Basically, RJ has made us truly feel that even if Rand does make it to the LB, he faces near impossible odds. We, the audience, get to experience the hopelessness of the situation. I think it's ridiculously well done by RJ, personally.

[Arkelias]

Maybe, the issue is without the ending all the buildup is, well, flat.  Until we see the ending and can connect the entire series we're left with only the books as they've been written.  Hopefully that ending redeems many of the loose ends and problems I see in the series.  If its one of the best endings ever the WoT will go down in history as the most epic fantasy ever. 

 

If it falls short people will always see it as the series that had potential, but failed to live up to it.

 

The major issue I face is that RJ didn't just beat up Rand.  He turned him into an arrogant prick I can no longer empathize with.  I used to root for him, but by this point in the series I'm pretty indifferent as to whether he lives or dies.  I don't care if he even beats the DO at this point.

 

RJ just stripped away too much empathy to make Rand worthy of reader support.  It will still end up an epic series, but I wish he'd done it so I still cared about his main protagonist.

 

I could be alone in this feeling, I know.  Its just that nearly everything Rand has done in the last five books has been a bad decision that your average five year old could have pointed out to him.  Case in point, the black tower.  Does anyone not see how that fiasco is going to play out?

 

Had Rand arrived at the last battle beaten up but still in the game, and I cared about him as a character, I can see how that would make for amazing fiction!  I just don't care for Rand anymore =X

[Seven of Nine]

Paraphrasing here but, hasn't it been mentioned time and time again that "Rand dosn't show up at the Last Battle and win. The Light only stands a chance if he does manage to get there. He has gone 14 rounds against the toughest opponent he's ever seen, he's beat up as hell, and the other guy isn't even trying yet. And now you've got to bring your best stuff"

 

Basically, RJ has made us truly feel that even if Rand does make it to the LB, he faces near impossible odds. We, the audience, get to experience the hopelessness of the situation. I think it's ridiculously well done by RJ, personally.

But that's why there THREE taveren at work, I think. Rand keeps thinking in many ways that he has to do this alone. He's going to be far from alone. I was impressed in my last rereading by something I hadn't picked up on before--just how many people Mat and Perrin will be bringing with them to the last battle. Many of these people are feeling the same pull to their taverens as Perrin and Mat are feeling to Rand.

 

Rand has to be there, and I'm sure he's going to be doing something that only he can do, but it's not going to be the shootout from High Noon with the protagonists facing off against each other.

[Charlz Guybon]

It's an interesting theory Optimus, thank you for sharing it.  That could have been exactly what RJ intended for Rand, and it could provide the avenue through which he finds recovery and redemption.  I guess we'll have to wait for more books to know for sure!

 

The problem I still have is one of pacing.  Having Rand fall hard on his face was clearly necessary to the tale RJ wanted to tell.  I just feel that he's spent too much time tearing Rand down, and not enough building him up.

 

In the end this will make the series a tragedy in the classic sense.  Tragedies aren't meant to leave you with a happy, content feeling.  They are meant to effect you on an emotional level.  The series has definitely done that.  I just didn't realize when it began that a tragedy was what RJ was going for.

 

In a way it reminds me of Robin Hobb's assassin trilogy.  She is an absolutely amazing writer, and I couldn't put those books down.  When I finished them I felt queasy and sad.  Fitz gets screwed over in every way its possible to be screwed over.  In the end he triumphs, in a way, but its a joyless victory and is painful to witness.

 

I'm starting to get the feeling that's the angle RJ is going for.  Its certainly how he's set Rand up since book six =/

 

Hasn't he been going for this from the beginning? Rand's death and madness was prophesied, I never expected him to have a happy ending. I'd be a bit surprised if he's even remembered as the one who saved the world. Logain's probably going to steal his glory.

 

 

If Rand actually had a genuinely happy ending it would have to written incredibly well for me not to be a bit disappointed with that.

[Seven of Nine]

And Harry had to die or the books would be ruined. I can't tell you how many times I read that! Not for me.

 

I don't think Rand would really care if Logain got his glory. He might actually find it rather peaceful to be a sheepherder again if he could get away with it. He's never been in this for the glory, or he would have been more susceptible to Lanfear.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

I could be alone in this feeling, I know.  Its just that nearly everything Rand has done in the last five books has been a bad decision that your average five year old could have pointed out to him.  Case in point, the black tower.  Does anyone not see how that fiasco is going to play out?

 

 

Lets look at major decisions in books 7-11

 

Good

Conquers Illian, Sammael dies

Names stewards in Cairhien, Illian and Tear

Cleanses the Source, Osangar killed

Alliance with the Rebel Aes Sedai

 

Neutral

Campaign against the Seanchan

Meets with  "Toun"; Rand crippled/Semirhage caputered

Makes a deal with the Sea Folk

 

Bad

Neglects Black Tower

Goes to Far Madding

 

That doesn't look like nearly everything to me.

[Seven of Nine]

And what about the schools he's starting so not everything is lost? I think that was an excellent decision.

[mb]

Osangar killed

That was actually Elza

 

Goes to Far Madding

That to me was not a bad decision since 4 of the Ashaman that attacked him in Cairhien were killed there.

Also, it seemed to help with the channeling difficulties he has been having.

 

[Knightscape]

 

The major issue I face is that RJ didn't just beat up Rand.  He turned him into an arrogant prick I can no longer empathize with.  I used to root for him, but by this point in the series I'm pretty indifferent as to whether he lives or dies.  I don't care if he even beats the DO at this point.

 

RJ just stripped away too much empathy to make Rand worthy of reader support.  It will still end up an epic series, but I wish he'd done it so I still cared about his main protagonist.

 

I could be alone in this feeling, I know.  Its just that nearly everything Rand has done in the last five books has been a bad decision that your average five year old could have pointed out to him.  Case in point, the black tower.  Does anyone not see how that fiasco is going to play out?

 

Had Rand arrived at the last battle beaten up but still in the game, and I cared about him as a character, I can see how that would make for amazing fiction!  I just don't care for Rand anymore =X

 

Unfortunately I don't think Brandon Sanderson is going to start redeeming Rand for quite some time.  Brandon Sanderson is going to push Rand right over the edge of hardness into total insanity.  This is going to be done in order to show the total desperation of the light, but the only thing it is going to accomplish is having Rand grow less sympathetic to Wheel of Time fans.(imho) 

 

 

[magnutz]

A reply to the "Rand has become too much of a basterd [sic!] abd thus I don't fancy him anymore" post.

 

I agree, totally. It seems he goes bat-blind to some of the obvious problems/situations and what is left of him is hard to sympathize with. Maybe, and hopefully, there will be some major redemption before then end. I have read a fair amount of novels and one theme that is often used is "The protagonist goes from good to bad to worse and then - redemption!" The ongoing theme in WoT is that Rand always focuses on getting harder, as har d as he has to be to do what he must do. He gets harder and harder but still thinks he needs to harden ever more. Perhaps that one search for ultimate hardness is what makes Rand forget/bungle certain other "things" such as The Black Tower..

 

Oh well.. Time will tell, that and Brandon's final installment.

[OptimusPrime]

A reply to the "Rand has become too much of a basterd [sic!] abd thus I don't fancy him anymore" post.

 

I agree, totally. It seems he goes bat-blind to some of the obvious problems/situations and what is left of him is hard to sympathize with. Maybe, and hopefully, there will be some major redemption before then end. I have read a fair amount of novels and one theme that is often used is "The protagonist goes from good to bad to worse and then - redemption!" The ongoing theme in WoT is that Rand always focuses on getting harder, as har d as he has to be to do what he must do. He gets harder and harder but still thinks he needs to harden ever more. Perhaps that one search for ultimate hardness is what makes Rand forget/bungle certain other "things" such as The Black Tower..

 

Oh well.. Time will tell, that and Brandon's final installment.

 

Three books for him to turn round in though. TGS will see him hit rock bottom.

 

Me and my brother talked a bit about it. First we saw Rand become a hero, now we're watching him fall from grace. I love every second of it. Semirhage revealing the Lews Therin situation was a big thing, I hope it has the right impact on the plot in TGS. Rands followers need to start realising how bad a state Rand is really in, and I think KoD set that ball rolling when Semirhage said what she did.

 

I think Rands "redemption" will be great.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

I couldn't agree more optimus. It is going to be the biggest and most awesome redemption ever. I can't even help that I love every second of it.

[Arkelias]

 

I could be alone in this feeling, I know.  Its just that nearly everything Rand has done in the last five books has been a bad decision that your average five year old could have pointed out to him.  Case in point, the black tower.  Does anyone not see how that fiasco is going to play out?

 

 

Lets look at major decisions in books 7-11

 

Good

Conquers Illian, Sammael dies

Names stewards in Cairhien, Illian and Tear

Cleanses the Source, Osangar killed

Alliance with the Rebel Aes Sedai

 

Neutral

Campaign against the Seanchan

Meets with  "Toun"; Rand crippled/Semirhage caputered

Makes a deal with the Sea Folk

 

Bad

Neglects Black Tower

Goes to Far Madding

 

That doesn't look like nearly everything to me.

 

Hopefully I'm wrong and it will be a great redeption at the end.  I'm skeptical based on past books, but KoD did at least partially restore my faith.

 

In any case I wanted to more adequately explain what I mean by Rand becoming the world's largest fool.

 

Here's what you listed as good, and why I feel its not:

 

Conquer's Illian

 

This was built up for several books before Rand actually attacked.  Then when he finally attacks I'm left boggled.  This was the great plan?  He could have just opened gateways and flooded the city with Asha'man and Aiel at any time.  Why the big wait?  This was the best plan he could come up with?

 

Sammael Dies

 

Sure, Sammeal dies but no thanks to Rand.  Rand chases him into an obvious trap, and loses.  He is going to die but Morridin saves him.  Then, it isn't Rand that kills Sammael.  Its Mashadar.  How does this make Rand look good?  He made a tactical error.  He didn't bring a fist full of Asha'man, Aiel or Aes Sedai to back him up.  He charged off alone and only lived because the Shadow saved him.

Naming Stewards

 

This was a good move on his part.  What bothers me is when Darlin is made king of Tear and Rand's jealous behavior afterwards.  It makes him look small and petty.

 

Meets with 'Tuon

 

Rand walked into an obvious ambush.  He brought Min, which he knew was a bad idea.  This is why he couldn't leap out of the way, and lost his hand.  Rand didn't capture Semi.  Logain and company did.  He stood there and sucked a fireball like an idiot, and did nothing to contribute to the fight.

 

Cleansing the source and killing Osangar

 

Rand didn't kill Osangar, but him cleansing the true source was the only scene since book six to evoke that feeling of awe and wonder that RJ excelled at in his early books.  I have no complaints here.  This was masterfully written, and a great series of scenes. 

 

The problem is that it created expectations in me.  I thought to myself, wait Rand made an intelligent decision.  Could he actually start making more of them?  I waited eagerly for the next book where I expected Rand's triumphant return to the Black Tower.

 

"I have made the source clean and saved you all from inevitable madness.  Join me and fight the last battle." or something similar.  Instead he continues to ignore the tower while an obvious darkfriend uses it to recruit new dreadlords to the shadow.

 

What I was given for the next book was Crossroads of Twilight, still the worst fantasy novel I've read period.  In or out of the WoT.

 

 

Alliance with the rebel Aes

 

This point I'm a bit muddy on.  Last I checked Rand doesn't have an alliance with the Rebel Aes Sedai.  In fact, he's terrified of them and hasn't gone anywhere near them.  Worse, Egwene believes he's used compulsion on Aes Sedai.  This is a situation that he's badly handled and will blow up in his face =(

 

It will end with him fulfilling Elaida's fortelling.  Rand will eat crow and end up kneeling before Egwene.  This will be one of the humiliating scenes that make it hard to root for rand, because we're tired of seeing him mess up and then pay the price for it =/

 

There are many more bad decisions that I could list, but you guys know my stance on Rand so I won't belabor the point unless you want more examples.  The bottom line is that Rand has accomplished nearly everything through being a Taveren and nothing more.

 

Its not his own ability allowing him to do things.  He bumbles about and makes mistakes constantly, with no character development.  He's not learning from his mistakes and getting better.  He's making more of them and getting worse.  This isn't fun for me to read about.  I'm tired of watching him kicked.  And then kicked again while he's down.

 

Can you point to a single forsaken that Rand has killed without direct aid from someone else?  The only one I can think of was Asmodean, the weakest of them.  Every other one he had someone's help like Nyneave with Rahvin or Morridin with Sammael =(

[Swigaro]

It will end with him fulfilling Elaida's fortelling.  Rand will eat crow and end up kneeling before Egwene.  This will be one of the humiliating scenes that make it hard to root for rand, because we're tired of seeing him mess up and then pay the price for it =/

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Elida's fortelling say The Dragon Reborn will face the Amrlyn Seat and know her anger.  As I had read that, it says nothing of Rand kneeling, what so ever.  That scene will likely happen, but it need not play out as you are afraid it will.

[Mr Ares]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Elida's fortelling say The Dragon Reborn will face the Amrlyn Seat and know her anger.

Correct.

Egwene: Rand, I am really angry.

Rand: I know.

[Arkelias]

I'm referring to the part that said 'know her wrath'.  That doesn't sound like Rand just blandy taking it.  That sounds like the world's worst upbraiding to me.

[Swigaro]

It sort of depends.  As far as I can recall, Egwene's biggest gripe with Rand is that she, and the Salidar Aes Sedai are convinced that he has been using compulsion on the sisters that have sworn fealty to him.  It is ironic, too, as many of them have been the victim of compulsion, just not at Rand's hand.  If she starts yelling at him for something he didn't do, I doubt he will just stand there and take it.  On the other hand, it may depend on when the scene takes place.  In his current condition, if she starts yelling at him, he may well respond as Mr Ares suggests.

[Seven of Nine]

And what in particular would draw Egwene's wrath? Something we've already seen or something yet to happen?

[OptimusPrime]

I couldn't agree more optimus. It is going to be the biggest and most awesome redemption ever. I can't even help that I love every second of it.

 

I wouldnt even if I could. The fact that Rand came so far was epic development, and that development didnt stop there. Its still ongoing. I really do think we will see strong Rand before the end, and I want the change to be as gradual and realistic as the rest of his development.

 

And what in particular would draw Egwene's wrath? Something we've already seen or something yet to happen?

 

Anger, not wrath. It could end up being wrath but the Foretelling said anger. I reckon it'll have something to do with the Ashaman, she'll scorn him for not being in control, and that led to some of her Aes Sedai being bonded against their will.

[Majsju]

Egwene has already dropped the belief that rand used Compulsion on Aes Sedai.

 

As for what will make her angry, look at the one thing that causes her to lose control - the Seanchan. And who is Rand about to negotiate a truce with? Ah, right, the Seanchan. And if that is not bad enough in Egwenes eyes, what are the odds that Rand will demand that the Seanchan release the damane, or at the very least the damane captured on "our" continent (which includes quite a few Aes Sedai)?

[Seven of Nine]

And what in particular would draw Egwene's wrath? Something we've already seen or something yet to happen?

Anger, not wrath. It could end up being wrath but the Foretelling said anger. I reckon it'll have something to do with the Ashaman, she'll scorn him for not being in control, and that led to some of her Aes Sedai being bonded against their will.

Hmmmm . . . I wonder what would happen to Alanna if Egwene ever finds out about that bond.

[Balefire to da face!]

And what in particular would draw Egwene's wrath? Something we've already seen or something yet to happen?

Anger, not wrath. It could end up being wrath but the Foretelling said anger. I reckon it'll have something to do with the Ashaman, she'll scorn him for not being in control, and that led to some of her Aes Sedai being bonded against their will.

Hmmmm . . . I wonder what would happen to Alanna if Egwene ever finds out about that bond.

 

Egwene would probably give her a medal. Hence the reason so many of us find her to be one of the more annoying female characters....

[Seven of Nine]

More irritating than Faile or Morgase?  :o

 

No, Egwene is really into the law now, and what Alanna did is seriously out of the law.