The DO will be the underdog in Tarmon Gai'don?

[Owners.Inc]

As for everybody saying "simply kill Rand".. obviously not. Ishmael was trying to turn Rand since book 1. He took 2 near deaths and an actual death (EoTW, TGH, and TDR) trying to turn him unsuccessfully. Obviously the key for the DO is turning the Light's avatar to the shadow. That is the only way he can win for good and that is why he's been doing the things he's been doing.

 

That's not entirely true. it definitely true that Ishy tried throughout EOTW and TGH to turn Rand, but I think it turned into a kill Rand sentiment at Falme. Rand spends most of TDR running from Darkfriends and Darkhounds and Gray Men. Its possible that some of them were sent by Sammael or Semirhage but its stretch to think that Ishy didn't send any.

 

As for turning Rand to the shadow being the only way to win...

It makes sense...but Ishy said that it had happened before...I know Ishy lies a lot but this always had the ring of truth to it. Besides, wouldn't Rand's death qualify as a victory for the DO? (The seals weaken eventually and DO is released). It may not be as complete a victory as Rand being turned, but at this point that hardly matters. If he really wants the DO can drag Rand back from the grave just to mock him.

[richnewton82]

.

[Mr Ares]

Gotsta side with the Sheikh.

Really? I gotsta side with the Jordan.

 

Either way I've never been convinced about how RJ reached the conclusion that the Light was struggling so badly.

Well, Rand is at war with the Seanchan, they are preparing to attack the Tower, the Tower is at war with itself, the Ogier are debating whehter or not to help, with a very persuasive speaker in favour of leaving, and the Borderlanders are wandering about with an army, which is a situation that could easily escalate. The White and Black Towers are infiltrated by Darkfriends, with the Black being run by them and the White's hunt for them currently stalled. The Light needs just about everything to go its way.

 

i read what's on the books.

And then ignore anything inconvenient to your argument.

[havoc110]

Gotsta side with the Sheikh.

Really? I gotsta side with the Jordan.

 

Refer to the aforementioned Kool Aid.

 

Apparently the "Dark Rand" theory isn't so loony after all.  And since the the end of LoC ch. 7, Elayne (and Dem, perhaps as the means of delivering Elayne) is the key. Well, Elayne has probably been the key all along, at every turn of the Wheel...

 

A very frustrating device used by RJ, similar to the death of Asmo.  A potentially critical scene (Dem/Elayne, LoC 7); then, nothing.  Years pass, books come and go, and no further mention, hints, etc.  Almost makes me want to buy back in to Danelle=Mesaana due to the similar "trail goes cold via no mention" scheme.  Almost, but not quite.

 

 

 

 

 

[richnewton82]

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[Ishmayl]

And since the the end of LoC ch. 7, Elayne (and Dem, perhaps as the means of delivering Elayne) is the key. Well, Elayne has probably been the key all along, at every turn of the Wheel...

 

 

I think that is going to need a bit more explanation than the "Obviously" that you stuck in front of it.  I don't have the book in front of me, but there has never been anything to mention that I recall about Elayne being any more important than what she has always been portrayed to be.  Even Elaida's Foretelling about the "Royal Line of Andor being Key to Defeating the Dark One" (or whatever it said) seems to be clearly talking about Rand, since the Foretelling was before Morgase took the throne, and Tigraine was in charge.

[Seven of Nine]

But there's helping and helping. Taim saved Rand's life (and later sent people to kill him). I don't buy that Moridin has turned to the Light. If he's "helping" Rand, it's to get him to TG where he can be defeated.

No, Moridin has not turned to the light, for sure. But why not just kill Rand straight out there and then? Why let Sammael be killed at all? Whatever rivalry/deceit is going on between Sammael and Moridin, it doesn't justify letting one of your more powerful allies die. Worse, not only did Moridin fail to divert Rand from Sammael, he helped Rand do. Moridin isn't a good guy, but one has to think the forces of the Shadow aren't the brightest apples in the orchard.

But do you really think the DO is that lame an adversary? That would be a real disappointment. Years ago there was a made for TV movie that at the beginning was a little scary--until you actually saw the bad guys, and then I just wanted to laugh. I hope we haven't been built up over all these books to be this disappointed.

 

I imagine Moridin may have someone lined up to take Sammael's place. There's some reason to keep Rand alive. But that begs the question. Why are the bad guys both trying to kill Rand and helping to keep him alive? Can they really be as divided as they appear? It could/should be just a great ploy.

 

Obviously the key for the DO is turning the Light's avatar to the shadow. That is the only way he can win for good and that is why he's been doing the things he's been doing.

That's what I've been thinking, too. There was all that talk about it and the girls being set up to be turned in Tear--and then almost nothing about it since.

 

As for turning Rand to the shadow being the only way to win...

It makes sense...but Ishy said that it had happened before...I know Ishy lies a lot but this always had the ring of truth to it. Besides, wouldn't Rand's death qualify as a victory for the DO? (The seals weaken eventually and DO is released). It may not be as complete a victory as Rand being turned, but at this point that hardly matters. If he really wants the DO can drag Rand back from the grave just to mock him.

But didn't Rand remember such a case in one of his past lives when using that Portal?  ???

[lordofsoup]

i dont really get it.  if rand dies then the DO can do whatever he wants, because there is no one strong enough to oppose him. 

[Bigchief]

I am new to the WoT community and would just like to put my two cents in. I have read all 11 books for the first time this summer and they are a masterpiece of fantasy writing.

 

Now to the point at hand, will the DO be an underdog at TG? To know this we have to look at what the real goal of the DO is. To destroy the wheel of time the pattern and everything associated with it.

 

He has been free of his prison in the AoL. Yet even though he was free he was not able to just destroy the wheel or the pattern, just alter it. The only thing that we know of that comes close to being able to unravel the pattern is Bailfire.

 

So I am theorizing that the DO is planning to completely destroy the TWO individuals that have held the pattern together. The two that have seemed both usher in a new age and end the old. Both the Dragon and his counterpart (Ishy) at once using something like bailfire except more powerful. Powerful enuff to not only burn rand and Ishy out of the pattern but to burn there souls out of existence for all time. This would cause a ripple effect throughout the pattern. Causing it to tear its self apart and taking the wheel of time with it. He is just waiting on the timing to be right. For example; the planets to a line so he can directly strike or something. This would explain why the DO wants to keep Rand alive and turn him to the shadow. Keeping him alive means that his soul is within striking distance, turning him to the dark means he can control him and make sure he is at the right spot at the right time. The DO himself does not care about  the rest of the world as long as he can guide/lead Rand to the right spot at the right time. The battles and wars of the past are just the DO’s follower attempting to grab power for themselves not knowing or caring that the DO plans to destroy everything. The DO can care less about any of them except Ishy as long as they do not get in his way of destroying Rand and Ishy. So to say the DO will be an underdog at TG is pointless. He does not need to fight a massive battle all he needs is to move his chess pieces to where they can be destroyed for all time.

 

P.S. this is a crake brained theory and probably not true I just felt it is thought provoking. ::)

 

 

[havoc110]

And since the the end of LoC ch. 7, Elayne (and Dem, perhaps as the means of delivering Elayne) is the key. Well, Elayne has probably been the key all along, at every turn of the Wheel...

 

 

I think that is going to need a bit more explanation than the "Obviously" that you stuck in front of it.  I don't have the book in front of me, but there has never been anything to mention that I recall about Elayne being any more important than what she has always been portrayed to be.   Even Elaida's Foretelling about the "Royal Line of Andor being Key to Defeating the Dark One" (or whatever it said) seems to be clearly talking about Rand, since the Foretelling was before Morgase took the throne, and Tigraine was in charge.

 

I did not use "Obviously".  I did use "Apparently" however in reaction to the possibility that the DO turns Rand to Dark.  Other posters see it as a distinct possibility.  As for Elayne, my reference is to the EotW Prologue.  For insignt into the final scene of TG, look to the first scene of the series.  LTT is given back some lucidity from Ishy.  It was LTT who slew Ilyena (we are only led to believe this, so we could have incomplete info, but LTT's rantings since seem to corroborate this).  Had he turned already and killed his family, then gone crazy?  Or had he been crazy all along and rather than accept Ishy's deal to turn, he breaks the world?  Will Rand accept or deny a similar deal?  Will it make it harder to turn away from the deal if it is all three of his women that are dead, all three to be potentially brought back by the DO?  Since this turning of the wheel we have Ilyena(Elayne) plus two.

 

To me, the "Dark Rand" and the "Dumb Evil" theories mesh perfectly.  If there is no drastic change in the Good vs. Evil depth charts between now and TG, then Dark doesn't really have any chance to be a threat.  The easiest way to change that landscape is to change the Dragon from Light to Dark. 

[Braus]

Gotsta side with the Sheikh.

Really? I gotsta side with the Jordan.

 

Its fair enough if people actually read the books and understands the events and the characters. Its just a entertainment serie of books after all, shouldnt be that hard to grasp certain things.

[Braus]

But there's helping and helping. Taim saved Rand's life (and later sent people to kill him). I don't buy that Moridin has turned to the Light. If he's "helping" Rand, it's to get him to TG where he can be defeated.

But do you really think the DO is that lame an adversary? That would be a real disappointment. Years ago there was a made for TV movie that at the beginning was a little scary--until you actually saw the bad guys, and then I just wanted to laugh. I hope we haven't been built up over all these books to be this disappointed.

 

 

Everything is relative, so is evil. Aslong as everythings fit togheter and i can keep admiring RJ ill be happy. The darkone doesnt need to be Duke Nukem for me at least, could be fun though. "Eat shit and die"

*see how this reply declined?:P*

[Seven of Nine]

To me, the "Dark Rand" and the "Dumb Evil" theories mesh perfectly.  If there is no drastic change in the Good vs. Evil depth charts between now and TG, then Dark doesn't really have any chance to be a threat.  The easiest way to change that landscape is to change the Dragon from Light to Dark.

We've seen a DF turn back to the Light (Ishtar), but has there been any mention of turning back someone who was forced to turn to the dark? If 13+13 can turn you can 13+? turn you back? I can deal with Rand being turned if he can be turned back. I would prefer that he not, but I could live with it.

 

As long as we don't have an emo-dressed dancing Rand, that is . . .

[Charlz Guybon]

I think that ironically Elza is right. The Dark One can not win total victory and completely escape unless Rand is at the last battle.

 

Remember the portal worlds, Trollocs conquered the world, but the Dark One hadn't escaped there.

 

It's at the Last Battle when Rand is trying to seal the Dark One up that will be the pivotal moment.  It is there that the Dark One will win or be defeated. Armies, Forsaken, the Taint, none of it matters in comparison. The Dark One must defeat the Dragon, and for that to happen the Dragon must be at the Last Battle. If the Dragon dies before that the Dark One can only win a partial victory.

 

 

[Ishmayl]

Remember the portal worlds, Trollocs conquered the world, but the Dark One hadn't escaped there.

 

That's a very astute observation that I've never noticed before.  It seems obvious in those worlds that there is no Dragon Reborn to fight the good fight, yet the DO is still imprisoned.  Maybe part of Harid Fel (sp?)'s "Clearing the rubble before you rebuild" statement has something to do with the Dragon actually opening the bore himself before he can reseal, and that's what the DO needs.

[sheikh chilli]

hehe This whole issue of turning the dragon to the shadow is so big red herring its' frankly absurd. consider the last dragon lews therin. for 10 years he led a war against the shadow. towards the end of the war, his forces were getting destroyed under the might of demandred and sammael. the dark one's influence was increasing and all manner of dark friends and shadow loyalists were coming out of the wood work. this all culminated ofcourse in the famous incident where the access keys to the koedan kal were lost since the territory became overrun by the shadow forces.

 

 

back then there was no elan morin tedronai asking the dragon to join up. there was no mention of conversion at all by robert jordan and frankly why should there? the shadow were winning and the light crumbling beneath the onslaught. hell this was the main reason for lews therin' final desperate act of going it alone to seal the bore. he could not wait on the female aes sedai any longer. they were losing and the sealing had to be done now or never.

 

 

and now 3000 later, the dark one and his minions are moved to threats cajoling and fake promises to turn rand to the shadow. they have to beg a shepherder when they were kicking lews therin's ass the whole time? i feel the whole conversion thing is just a copout. a easy way out to explain the retarded moves made the shadow so far which led to many of the dark one's loyalists including his much touted forsaken getting killed and captured.  a way to explain how a dumb shepherder is  beating these super gangsters from the age of legends. infact nothing will ever explain how moridin allowed one of his own allies to die at the cost of keeping the shadow's tormentor alive. didn't moridin see the futility of converting rand after he got his ass kicked back in TDR? kill rand there and then and that is it. no more lews therin to save anyone. just a matter of time before the crumbling seals give way to the massive heaving of the dark one and voila the prison goes back to square one i.e the war of power status. a few more heavings or few assiatance from the forsaken and the prison would be broken.

 

 

and that's really disappointing. not the actual incident but the failure in my opinion of robert jordan not accomplishing so far this epic battle between the forces of light against the shadow. the shadow it seems are only capable of formenting division and mistrust. there is no big blows or massive damages so far that has been done to the forces of light. infact the only thing i think the dark one has accomplished so far was tainting saidin and even that has been negated. their numbers keep dwindling as days goes by.

 

 

whereas not one major character from the light side has met their demise or a battle from their end resulting in a loss.  Moiraine was the only major character i thought at the time whose death was significant. and it turns out she's alive and well.

 

 

The series has not been finished yet. and there's still some time. but i hope we will see an epic struggle instead of the constant loss taking from the shadow end of the spectrum.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

Irrespective of what has and hasn't been done well, I dont think the Dark One is doing too terribly.

 

A) He still has most of his surprises left.

B) The ONLY CHANCE for the Light, Rand, is terribly beat up (thanks to a few little events, most of which have been influenced by a Forsaken or two)

C) The general forces of the light are scattered and dissarrayed, too busy to unite due to random CHAOS, mostly caused by the Dark One and co.

 

I think the plan has been solid. Leave the troops to sow Chaos in the world while you build up your strength, keep them off thier balance for long enough to sweep on through with the big kill, and reap the benefits.

 

I can see how the Light is in a bad way. The Dark One might not be showboating around yet, but they are solidly working thier way towards grinding out a victory, through un-combatable plans and initiatives.

 

Just one man's opinion.

[Yizun]

Irrespective of what has and hasn't been done well, I dont think the Dark One is doing too terribly.

 

A) He still has most of his surprises left.

B) The ONLY CHANCE for the Light, Rand, is terribly beat up (thanks to a few little events, most of which have been influenced by a Forsaken or two)

C) The general forces of the light are scattered and dissarrayed, too busy to unite due to random CHAOS, mostly caused by the Dark One and co.

 

I think the plan has been solid. Leave the troops to sow Chaos in the world while you build up your strength, keep them off thier balance for long enough to sweep on through with the big kill, and reap the benefits.

 

I can see how the Light is in a bad way. The Dark One might not be showboating around yet, but they are solidly working thier way towards grinding out a victory, through un-combatable plans and initiatives.

 

Just one man's opinion.

 

I have to agree with you DeRouge. The Dark One is not even TRYING to lead an offensive on the forces of the Light. He is just letting humans do what they do when they do not have a common enemy to fight, fight amongst themselves. If he was launching massive raids and trying to conquer nations, the nations would band together and Rand would get what he has been trying to get for a long time now, peace in the North, East, West, and South (ironically spells NEWS if you take the first letter of each of those). The Dark One's fate would definitely be decided then. One of the main things that is keeping the Light from winning is themselves, and the Dark One knows this. Not to mention he is spoiling their food, caused a long summer, and is slowly gathering more and more soldiers, Asha'Man, and who knows what to fight the eventual Last Battle. Meanwhile the forces of Light are scattered and fighting amongst themselves. Even the pinnacle of strength, the White Tower, is broken and shattered. The Seanchan are moving in and scoff at the idea that the Dark One even exists and is slaughtering those who can fight the Dark One.

 

If you ask me the Dark One's tactics are pretty solid.

[havoc110]

Ok, Shiekh, can't side with you on that last bit.

 

Go and read EotW Prologue: (Here's the relavent passage):

 

"You can have her back, Kinslayer.  The GLotD can make her live again, if you will serve him.  If you will serve me."

 

So you point about Elan Morin not asking the Dragon to join up is not correct.  Quite the opposite in fact.  So, from my earlier post, it's clearer that since Ishy is still asking LTT, then it was insanity that drove LTT to kill everyone, then he breaks the world rather than accept Ishy's deal.  

 

And since you were the one who brought up Moiraine.  Dark can't really claim Moiraine, either.  She's and archetypal guide/mentor character.  She supposed to be lost.  (And she's supposed to come back, too).

 

I need some help here, but can't Rand be quoted as telling someone (maybe LTT, maybe Eg. or Moiraine) something like "I won't break the world".  So given the choice, will Rand chose to serve Dark if some or all of his "wives" could be restored to life?  (Take into account Rand's uber-passion over women dying for his cause.  Then figure out how he'll act when presented with the dead bodies of Min, Avi, and Elayne. Will he be able to turn down Ishy's deal?).  Also in the mix is the curveball of LTT's greater control, how will that effect Rand's "final answer"?  We know what choice LTT took...  I think LTT was perfectly sane (thanks mostly in part to Ishy/DO's healing) and knew that he wouldn't be able to turn down Ishy's deal.  So he broke the world instead.

 

Funny thing about what Ishy said to LTT about his mental illness, that his Sisters would only be able to provide a few minute's relief. 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Gotsta side with the Sheikh.

Really? I gotsta side with the Jordan.

Refer to the aforementioned Kool Aid.

Refer to the aforementioned ignoring of facts that don't fit your argument. Famine, rats everwhere, millions strong Trolloc armies, the Light divided against itself, and infiltrated by the Shadow. Doesn't look much like the Light is winning. And RJ had a fuller appreciation of the situation than anyone else.

 

back then there was no elan morin tedronai asking the dragon to join up.

You know this how? And what was Ishy doing, then?

didn't moridin see the futility of converting rand after he got his ass kicked back in TDR? kill rand there and then and that is it.

In TDR, Ishy was trying to kill Rand. It resulted in his death. He subsequently sees this as a mistake. "One of the men had eyes of flame, and he wanted Rand dead with a desperation she could nearly taste." Egwene, TDR 48, in a Dream, referring to Ishy. See also PoD Prologue, Moridin's thoughts on the sha'rah game. Clearly, your interpretation is pure fantasy, nothing at all to do with what RJ actually wrote.

just a matter of time before the crumbling seals give way to the massive heaving of the dark one and voila the prison goes back to square one i.e the war of power status. a few more heavings or few assiatance from the forsaken and the prison would be broken.

How long? A year? 10? 100? If you killed the Dragon, would there be time for another to be born? How many?

and it turns out she's alive and well.

It turns out she is alive. We don't know she is well.

[havoc110]

Gotsta side with the Sheikh.

Really? I gotsta side with the Jordan.

Refer to the aforementioned Kool Aid.

Refer to the aforementioned ignoring of facts that don't fit your argument. Famine, rats everwhere, millions strong Trolloc armies, the Light divided against itself, and infiltrated by the Shadow. Doesn't look much like the Light is winning. And RJ had a fuller appreciation of the situation than anyone else.

 

Believe what you want.  I'll ignore facts that I want to, you ignore the ones you want.  I see a guy defending his work.  I see you running out the same laundry list.  I'm not sure, but was there ever an audio recording of this specific RJ interview?  I seem to remember him being worked up about this defense.

 

And that's because the argument is valid.  You can go with rats, weevils, Trollocs, whatever you want.  You can't ignore that in the climactic scenes throughout the series, Light is something-and-oh in wins and losses with maybe a couple draws thrown in by some of the scoring judges.  And Dark is No Wins, mostly losses, and some draws.  And some (maybe more than some) of Dark's greatest losses have been due to the ridiculous ineptitude of Dark's leaders.  That's the basis of the argument.  Ignore it if you want.  I present you 8 dead Forsaken, 5 permanently, and you come back with rats and food shortages.  I'm not ignoring your argument, I just find it lacking.

[DemandredFO]

as has been said havoc the light is divided, it doesn't matter that team dark hasn't killed any major characters.  I will not rehash the reasons why others have done that.  Right now, all a 2 million strong trolloc army smashing through the borderlands can do is be big enough to make everyone stop fighting each other until after TG.

[havoc110]

No, quite clearly it matters to some, it just doesn't matter to others, like you and Ares.  Fair is fair, but honestly you wouldn't have welcomed some more adversity for Light in the form of a Forsaken victory or two?

[Mr Ares]

I'll ignore facts that I want to

Says it all.

was there ever an audio recording of this specific RJ interview?

I believe it was a blog post. So no.

 

You can't ignore that in the climactic scenes throughout the series, Light is something-and-oh in wins and losses with maybe a couple draws thrown in by some of the scoring judges.

No, bif you just look at the big events, you miss the deatils. And the Devil is in the details. We see big victories for our heroes, but look a little closer and in the background we see the Light fighting itself and the Shadow getting stronger at their expense.

you come back with rats and food shortages.

You give me 8 corpses, I give you a famine that threatens millions, and you find that lacking? I can see the Light winning case. It looks good, on the face of it. Look a little deeper, and you see they're not doing quite so well. You can really see where RJ is coming from.

[richnewton82]

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