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Balefire and the Gholam


Demon_AS
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I've read the section in the WoT FAQ that suggests that gholam cannot be killed by the OP, due to their ability to unravel any flows directed at them.

 

But this got me thinking - seeing as balefire destroys things in the instant before it touches the victim, doesn't that make the gholam as vulnerable to it as anyone else is?

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seeing as balefire destroys things in the instant before it touches the victim, doesn't that make the gholam as vulnerable to it as anyone else is?

 

That would be true if the Balefire was able to touch the Gholam in the first place. Which it can't.

I see what you're saying, but I still think there's a piece missing in the logic.

 

If you're dead before it hits you, then the weaves should be intact when it reaches the gholam. I agree that once the weave settled on the gholam, it would simply disintegrate, but...

 

I don't know - thought I'd ask to see what people thought! :)

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seeing as balefire destroys things in the instant before it touches the victim, doesn't that make the gholam as vulnerable to it as anyone else is?

 

That would be true if the Balefire was able to touch the Gholam in the first place. Which it can't.

If you're dead before it hits you, then the weaves should be intact when it reaches the gholam.

 

Yes, but it has to be able to hit you lol. The power of the Gholam is that it negates the OP and any weaves that get within whatever proximity it takes for it to negate them. Which is at some point away from its' body. So the weave never touches it.

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seeing as balefire destroys things in the instant before it touches the victim, doesn't that make the gholam as vulnerable to it as anyone else is?

 

That would be true if the Balefire was able to touch the Gholam in the first place. Which it can't.

If you're dead before it hits you, then the weaves should be intact when it reaches the gholam.

 

Yes, but it has to be able to hit you lol. The power of the Gholam is that it negates the OP and any weaves that get within whatever proximity it takes for it to negate them. Which is at some point away from its' body. So the weave never touches it.

As previously stated, I get your point, but it still doesn't make sense. Why should that matter if you're destroyed before the weave ever touches you? Nowhere does it say that there's an aura or radius around a gholam that can't be breached by the power - simply that weaves disintegrate when they touch it.

 

Seeing as no one ever actually gets hit by balefire, does it matter whether the weave would've settled or not?

 

I think you do have a point - but is there any proof of it either way?

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People do get hit by balefire. The Darkhounds were also hit by Balefire. 

 

Either way though, it comes down to this: The Gholam negates the OP. Balefire, no matter how strong, dangerous, what have you, is still a Weave of the OP. Simple as that.

That's why the Gholam is such a dangerous enemy. It does obviously have weaknesses however, so it isn't invincible. Just against "conventional" means. If you can call the OP or Balefire conventional.

Rand using the CK and Channeling Balefire as strong as he possibly could at it would have the same, meaning no, effect most likely.

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Balefire hits you.  It just burns your thread out of the pattern from before the point it hits you, like fire actually spreading on a flammable surface.  It would have to hit the gholam to kill it.  So no, you can't balefire it.  Remember Graendal said two things along the line of "only a madman would create the gholam" and "she had had a near fatal run in with one of aginor's creations".  I'm assuming the second statement refers to the Gholam, because any other creature she would be able to destroy with the OP.

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Well, ter'angreal are made the OP.

 

Mat's one does plenty of damage to the gholam :).

 

Ergo, there must be a caveat, no? Perhaps not balefire, seeing as everyone seems sure of it, but there must be an as-yet unthought of alternative.

 

After all, no one in the AoL cured Stilling, either, and yet the Third Age Randlanders managed it :).

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Balefire hits you.  It just burns your thread out of the pattern from before the point it hits you, like fire actually spreading on a flammable surface.  It would have to hit the gholam to kill it.  So no, you can't balefire it.  Remember Graendal said two things along the line of "only a madman would create the gholam" and "she had had a near fatal run in with one of aginor's creations".  I'm assuming the second statement refers to the Gholam, because any other creature she would be able to destroy with the OP.

 

I think it's pretty clear from Graendal's story and from how Da'concion sans Elan Morin have felt about the True Power, that that dangerous, highly addictive substance only given explicitly by the Dark One is how she got away from the Gholam.

 

We've heard from basically every one of the Chosen, especially when they see the saa, that the True Power is something they'd only use in the time of greatest need. I'd say a creature that can't be touched by the OP, and that is as strong as ten men, qualifies as such.

 

Moreover, it would explain why Elan Morin in POD is utterly unconcerned with the presence of the Gholam in Ebou Dar, since he's a TP addict and the only fellow allowed to use it.

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Osangar wove balefire to Rand, and Elza killed Osangar before the balefire could hit Rand.

Probably distance plays a factor on when balefire does its damage.

 

 

In general, Balefire burns threads from the Pattern. However, as seen with Rahvin, he used Balefire and killed Aviendha, Mat, and Asmodean, and then the amount of the One Power Rand used to destroy Ravhin with balefire caused time to go backwards, and everything Rahvin had done or killed a period of time before, came back into existence.

 

Hence Mat 'died and now lives again', and Asmodean became mortal. Otherwise he wouldn't have died.

 

 

 

And, to stay on topic, the weave I'm thinking, actually kills the target before the weave passes where they were standing. However, we have no evidence that the Gholam was actually around when Balefire was used, or if it came into contact with it.

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In general, Balefire burns threads from the Pattern. However, as seen with Rahvin, he used Balefire and killed Aviendha, Mat, and Asmodean,

 

i don't know if you actually think that or if you just made a mistake with the words, but just so your clear, Ravhin used lightning which is a secondary hit weave. not Balefire.

 

and about graendal escaping a Gholam, it might be just as easy as she seeing it and instantly runs away via a gateway

 

BTW: isn't there already a topic on this? like for example can gholam's be killed by balefire? just one page back

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Forgive me for posting this twice, but this thread seems to be more appropriate...

 

The Gholam, possibly related to Cuendillar? Both immune/absorb weaves...perhaps the pain the Gholam felt was Mat's foxhead sort of...'sucking out' the weaves laid onto/into the gholam?

 

Any thoughts?

It's a nice idea, but I don't think it works because of the descriptions of what happens when you channel at cuendillar and when you channel at the gholam/Mat's ter'angreal.

 

Mat and the gholam don't actually absorb the weaves - it's described as being more of a dissipation or an unraveling of the weave as it settles on either body. Cuendillar is said to absorb anything directed at it in order to make itself stronger.

 

My own theory on why Mat's ter'angreal damages the gholam is more in keeping with the "like charges repel" idea that I've seen in some place. Both the ter'angreal and the gholam would probably need some kind of anti-OP property - kind of like an electric charge, shall we say, just for the sake of illustrating my idea - for it to do what it does. So, you try and place one on top of the other, and suddenly the molecules of this "anti-OP" matter start violently repelling each other, causing some sort of exothermic reaction.

 

What I want to know is why Mat's ter'angreal comes out unscathed - no scratches or melting of the foxhead have been mentioned - and yet the gholam comes out with second-degree burns. I suppose that's a weak point in my own argument, really - because if it was a reaction of two like-substances, then it's plausible that there would be damage to both items, not just one.

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I thought of the electric charge part too, when I read that. Perhaps the charge on the foxhead is stronger, or maybe it's more concentrated. After all, that small amulet is able to replicate what the Gholam does for Mat's whole body.

 

Or may be it's just that it's silver. I hope to God, though, that the T-1000, err, the Gholam doesn't have to be destroyed in a steel foundry or something. That would kind of suck.

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I thought of the electric charge part too, when I read that. Perhaps the charge on the foxhead is stronger, or maybe it's more concentrated. After all, that small amulet is able to replicate what the Gholam does for Mat's whole body.

 

Or may be it's just that it's silver. I hope to God, though, that the T-1000, err, the Gholam doesn't have to be destroyed in a steel foundry or something. That would kind of suck.

Even more anti-climactic would be the death of a gholam by an accidental stab of an ashandarei in the heel :P.
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