Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[DemandredFO]

Despite all the Asha'man Warders running around I sincerly doubt it.  For a start, when the Aes Sedai at least the rebels find out that when holding saidin the Asha'Man can't be compelled they're going to throw a royal tantrum.  The also Nicola's foretelling the Guardians cannot balance the servants if they are united because the current crop of servants do not share.

[Mr. Micawber]

maybe the white and black tower will end the "schism" and the collective title will be towers of midnight. midnight being the time between light and dark or more appropriately white and black.

 

I dunno, it's pretty flaming dark here in New York at Midnight.

 

Perhaps you live in a polar region? ::)

[chris hawkwing]

it was not a literal statement. i was just referencing the time slots between day and night.

[Charlz Guybon]

The Armies of Night are what Luthair's crew called the Seanchan forces they fought because of the Aes Sedai element but also because of the exotics they were faced with. Ironic a bit given their own widespread use of exotics.

 

Edit: Also here's a question, why does the Seanchan view on the Karaethon Cycle have to be false? I'm not saying whether or not it's the true version or something of the sort. But let's say this, Tuon is the Crystal Throne(I always held the view that she was in Randland as a representative of the Throne and therefore could be considered the Crystal Throne(not the literal object but the majesty aspect)), because she was the DotNM before, and because she's now the legitimate Empress even if she might not have been crowned yet. What if her condition for acceding to a truce, because she's a fervent believe of the Seanchan Karaethon prophecy, is for Rand to bow before her(either literally or symbolically). Wouldn't that make them sorta true? And if that's the case, what other differences are there between the two, I know there are mention of at least a few, but don't think we ever heard a specific one aside from that.

I'm pretty sure that Rand's ta'vereness will convert her. Her disbelief in ta'veren surely foreshadows it working on her.

 

Also, as I recently noted in the Mat thread in the structured discussion forum, many of the lords whose memories he has lived during the Trolloc Wars. It would only be natural for those men to wonder if the Last Battle was coming and to read the Prophesies. Now Mat usually remembers an event or knowledge when something in his immediate environment triggers it, so if Toun mentions her faulty understanding of the prophesies in front of him I wouldn't be surprised for him to offer a learned objection.

[Mr. Micawber]

it was not a literal statement. i was just referencing the time slots between day and night.

 

Those aren't called "midnight", they're called "dusk" and "dawn", which is as good a reason as any for Rand to "Come with the Dawn".

[Luckers]

It could refer to the upcoming darkfriend uprising in both Towers--Taim and BA. Maybe the 13th book deals heavily with that.

 

Edit: Also here's a question, why does the Seanchan view on the Karaethon Cycle have to be false? I'm not saying whether or not it's the true version or something of the sort. But let's say this, Tuon is the Crystal Throne(I always held the view that she was in Randland as a representative of the Throne and therefore could be considered the Crystal Throne(not the literal object but the majesty aspect)), because she was the DotNM before, and because she's now the legitimate Empress even if she might not have been crowned yet. What if her condition for acceding to a truce, because she's a fervent believe of the Seanchan Karaethon prophecy, is for Rand to bow before her(either literally or symbolically). Wouldn't that make them sorta true? And if that's the case, what other differences are there between the two, I know there are mention of at least a few, but don't think we ever heard a specific one aside from that.

 

To kneel to a throne is to submit to it. Oh I agree that had it been a true prophecy Rand might simply have knelt before the throne before, you know, killing it's occupent or something, but pushing all that aside and simply looking at it from Tuon's perspective--kneeling would mean submitting.

 

It will cause problems. Tuon will not see a flimsy bow as the fulfilment of prophecy--but ultimately Rand will bind her in service to him.

[Vassili]

Two questions:

 

Do we know that the Blight extends into Seanchan and Shara, even in a lesser form? If it did, wouldn't the Seanchan know to be more concerned about the DO and not simply dismiss shadowspawn as superstition?

 

And:

 

Do we know there are no waygates in Seanchan? Its assumed because we never hear of anyone using them to to get to Seanchan in the past, but not very much is known about them anymore. However, their creators could Travel, and it stands to reason they would have wanted to unite ALL the stedding, not just those in Randland.

[Mr. Micawber]

Two questions:

 

Do we know that the Blight extends into Seanchan and Shara, even in a lesser form? If it did, wouldn't the Seanchan know to be more concerned about the DO and not simply dismiss shadowspawn as superstition?

 

And:

 

Do we know there are no waygates in Seanchan? Its assumed because we never hear of anyone using them to to get to Seanchan in the past, but not very much is known about them anymore. However, their creators could Travel, and it stands to reason they would have wanted to unite ALL the stedding, not just those in Randland.

 

1. Yes, because the World Map in the BBWBA explicitly shows the Mountains of Dhoom and thus the Blight extending across the entire continent *and* we know the Sharans had to deal with the Trolloc Wars. Moreover, in BBWBA and from RJ's own testimony, we know that there is something called the Lesser or Little Blight or whatever in Seanchan, but the Trollocs over there were wiped out by Portal Stone creatures like the Grolm.

 

2. We know that the Ogier, like Loial for example, have no clue there are Ogier on the other side of the ocean. In fact they have no idea what's on the other side. The Ways stopped being used around the time of the War of a Hundred Years, but remember that's approximately the time of Loial's grandparents or greatgrandparents, and *none* of the Ogier have any idea about the Gardeners across the sea. Moreover, the Longing never touched the Seanchan Ogier, which is why they can be soldiers, because according to RJ there are a lot more Stedding over there. The Ways were created to avoid human interaction, but principally to avoid the Longing. The Seanchan Ogier had and have no need for the Ways.

[Charlz Guybon]

Two questions:

 

Do we know that the Blight extends into Seanchan and Shara, even in a lesser form? If it did, wouldn't the Seanchan know to be more concerned about the DO and not simply dismiss shadowspawn as superstition?

 

And:

 

Do we know there are no waygates in Seanchan? Its assumed because we never hear of anyone using them to to get to Seanchan in the past, but not very much is known about them anymore. However, their creators could Travel, and it stands to reason they would have wanted to unite ALL the stedding, not just those in Randland.

 

1. Yes, because the World Map in the BBWBA explicitly shows the Mountains of Dhoom and thus the Blight extending across the entire continent *and* we know the Sharans had to deal with the Trolloc Wars. Moreover, in BBWBA and from RJ's own testimony, we know that there is something called the Lesser or Little Blight or whatever in Seanchan, but the Trollocs over there were wiped out by Portal Stone creatures like the Grolm.

 

 

Seanchan creatures are totally overrated. They would have to exist in far greater numbers then we've seen to be solely responsible for that. Sure, they're helpful but I'm certain the Seanchan attribute the defeat of the Trollocs there to them so they don't have to attribute it to the efforts of the Marath'damane who were there before Luthair arrived. And there's always the breaking of the world to consider, it's possible that simply not that many Trollocs were stranded in Seanchan and so were easy to mop up.

[Mr. Micawber]

I'm pretty sure that RJ explicitly stated - either in the BBWBA or in a Q&A (any help here Luckers!?) - that the Seanchan brought the "exotics" through the Portal Stones to combat Trollocs and other Shadowspawn.

 

We know, actually, from the world that Lanfear sends Rand, that the grolm and other Portal creatures actually wiped out the Trollocs in that version of reality.

 

The reason they could do this, however, is that the Lesser Blight was less virulent, and, as you said, had no access to Shayol Ghul and reinforcements.

 

But it *was* those creatures that did the deed.

[Charlz Guybon]

I'm pretty sure that RJ explicitly stated - either in the BBWBA or in a Q&A (any help here Luckers!?) - that the Seanchan brought the "exotics" through the Portal Stones to combat Trollocs and other Shadowspawn.

 

We know, actually, from the world that Lanfear sends Rand, that the grolm and other Portal creatures actually wiped out the Trollocs in that version of reality.

 

The reason they could do this, however, is that the Lesser Blight was less virulent, and, as you said, had no access to Shayol Ghul and reinforcements.

 

But it *was* those creatures that did the deed.

 

I have BWB and it says that "while the creatures effectiveness was not recorded, it was during the same time that all the remaining shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated". The book merely implies that they were the cause. I don't remember what Lanfear said, but what ever she said, she wasn't around when it happened and is merely repeating the legends that remain and as we all know legends are not reliable. Think about it logically, what is more dangerous to an army of Trollocs. A regiment of torm cavalry or a handful of women who can channel? I'm not saying the torm were not helpful, only that the women were more important. In the end though, we'll see how the exotics do against Trollocs this side of the ocean.

[Mr. Micawber]

I'm pretty sure that RJ explicitly stated - either in the BBWBA or in a Q&A (any help here Luckers!?) - that the Seanchan brought the "exotics" through the Portal Stones to combat Trollocs and other Shadowspawn.

 

We know, actually, from the world that Lanfear sends Rand, that the grolm and other Portal creatures actually wiped out the Trollocs in that version of reality.

 

The reason they could do this, however, is that the Lesser Blight was less virulent, and, as you said, had no access to Shayol Ghul and reinforcements.

 

But it *was* those creatures that did the deed.

 

I have BWB and it says that "while the creatures effectiveness was not recorded, it was during the same time that all the remaining shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated". The book merely implies that they were the cause. I don't remember what Lanfear said, but what ever she said, she wasn't around when it happened and is merely repeating the legends that remain and as we all know legends are not reliable. Think about it logically, what is more dangerous to an army of Trollocs. A regiment of torm cavalry or a handful of women who can channel? I'm not saying the torm were not helpful, only that the women were more important. In the end though, we'll see how the exotics do against Trollocs this side of the ocean.

 

Yes! I've been waiting for a Lopar - Myrrdraal or a Grolm - Trolloc throwdown for twelve years  ;D

[DemandredFO]

The Seanchan keep saying I wonder if a Grolm could kill a trolloc, well we'll get our chance.  I want to see a Raken and a Dragkhar but what I really want to see is some of those nearly uncontrollable shadowspawn, I would also like to know what a wyrm turned into, Mothra maybe.  All I have to say is really dangerous shadowspawn has been foreshadowed ever since the beginning I hope they live up to their billing

[Mr. Micawber]

what I really want to see is some of those nearly uncontrollable shadowspawn, I would also like to know what a wyrm turned into, Mothra maybe.

 

The most exotic of the Seanchan exotics is damane.

 

And I can't think of anything short of Alivia-powered damane taking on a jumara; none of the Forsaken sounded particularly happy with Aginor over his super powered creations.

[algspkr]

I believe that the title indicates that we will see resolution at the Black and White Towers.  I hope I am wrong about the White Tower as I would like to see that resolved in TGS.

[Charlz Guybon]

I believe that the title indicates that we will see resolution at the Black and White Towers.  I hope I am wrong about the White Tower as I would like to see that resolved in TGS.

Sanderson said Egwene would get a lot of screen time so I'm expecting her to be crowned by the end.

[DemandredFO]

I think we'll see Egwene made the official amarlyn in TGS but I think the Seanchan will hold the White Tower and Egwene forces will hold the surrounding areas and maybe the city of Tar Valon.  My hope is that the last scene of the book will be an army of Shadowspawn and dreadlords smashing their way out of the borderlands on the way to Tar Valon.

I was listening to tGH just at the scene where Moraine recalls Gitara's foretelling and I'm wondering if Eliada will have some kind of foretelling when Egwene is attending her.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

thats an interesting thought about the foretelling, i think it would be cool if it was something which makes it clear she isnt the amyrlin who reunites the tower, and the one the dragon faces and knows her anger. she has been on such an ego trip the whole time since siuan was deposed, but especially since they removed alivarin as keeper. i think it is only a matter of time before the tower aes sedai do something about her ineptitude for the job, but i dont think things will play out the way some of us would like ( eladia being stilled and executed). she will most likely be removed, yes, but remember egwene's test for accepted, when she was amyrlin and eladia a red sitter, and her biggest opposition in the hall? i think the rings are similar to the ones in rhudiean in that they show some possibilities of the future, so i doubt she will just be killed off, at least not right away. sorry if i messed up the spelling of the names horribly, but i dont have a book with me and was too lazy to open another tab to look the proper spelling up... :-\

[RelentlessAttack]

I personally feel like Egwene will gain the tower in TGS, but I'm not sure if the black ajah will be outed at the same time as the seanchan attack.  I have a feeling that the BA stuff may take place in towers of midnight, along with the black tower stuff, due to the name of the book.

[Durinax]

I think the Towers of Midnight are the black tower and white tower being controlled by darkfriends, it is directly reffered to by Mesaana during the prologue

[Dashier]

The Towers of Midnight are:

 

"Both the Tower of Ravens and the Court of the Nine Moons are located in Seandar, the Imperial capital, located in the northeast of the Seanchan Continent. Seanchan is the largest city in the Empire.  The other major cities in decending order are Kirendad, Noren, M'Shar, Assinbayar, Qirat, Imfaral (Location of the Towers of Midnight, Sohima, T'zura, Anangore, Shon Kifar, and Rampore."

 

p. 162 The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time.

[Dashier]

is weird theory, with no basis on the books, a moderator reportable offense?

[Ashaman Kovan]

What the hell are you talking about Dashier?  ???

[Durinax]

I think Dashier was talking about my theory, but I have no idea what would make him think that it is an offense. . . after all this is a spoiler thread.

btw teh basis is masaanas quote from the prologue about the tower, most people would associate the darkest hour to midnight, towers of midnight. . . is that clear or am I just crazy

[Luckers]

There is nothing to moderate here Dashier, although it would do you well to read the thread before posting. There has been considerable discussion of the Towers of Midnight in Seanchan, and why they probably arn't the 'Towers of Midnight' the book is named after--the key piece of evidence being RJ said the main sequence books would never return to Seanchan.

 

You'll note too that the book is named 'Towers of Midnight', not 'THE Towers of Midnight.