Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[Sharaman]

Couldn't the broken crown be in reference to Prrin's right to the old/broken kingdom of Manetheren?

Not really, as Perrin gave up his claim to Manetheren in KoD, so he has no right to it.

In TPoD, Tenobia is specifically referenced with the "Broken Crown". Also she's unmarried, Bashere is her nearest relative and Zarine is Bashere's heir.

 

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

He is not Roedran. We've had that PoV, and why wouldn't we have gotten a single clue?

In what book did we get A POV of Roedran?  It doesn't happen.  I have my entire wheel of time collection within arms reach of me at this very computer and I would be more than happy to check friend Charis Sedai, but it does not appear.

 

We have not yet met Roedran of Murandy, otherwise known as Demandred.

 

 

[Sentinel78]

He is not Roedran. We've had that PoV, and why wouldn't we have gotten a single clue?

 

Agreed --- Roedran has not had a POV and has not even appeared directly in any of the chapters.

[Aleron688]

OK,

 

so i have been reading these threads for a while now at work (which is often since there is nothing to do), and I've noticed no one seems to be talking much about this... which i think is fairly important.

 

CIRCLES.  everyone keeps thinking that they have to do everything themselves (such as the AS when the Seanchan attacked, and rand sealing the DO). 

 

i think this could be a major plot device in the next couple books.  Why not have 35 men and 37 women join up and beat the crap out of everyone who stands in their way?  Rand leading the circle with his knowledge of the OP should be able to do some serious damage.

 

 

Another thing i was wondering about, is what is going to be happening with Rand's nausea when he goes for the OP now.  Now that LT is gone/has been... absorbed or w/e you wanna call it, there will obviously be no more struggle to grab the OP.  Will he up-chuck when he grabs it still, or has that been solved now too?

[Kelitor]

My only bit of speculation so far is that Fortuona and the Seanchan will interpret Egwene's use of Voira's sa'angreal to be the "weapon" they think the Aes Sedai have.

[Jillain Sanche]

Whatever happened to Pevara and the other Aes Sedai who went to bond the Asha'man.

.  .  .

Definitely the TOG and the rescue of Moiraine (if she is still alive). Should be epic.

 

The (Two!) Towers have to be the Black Tower and the Tower of Ghenjei -- and of course these are the two big loose threads next needing to be woven back together. ;)

Taim has to be dealt with. Moraine must be freed.

 

Personally I am hoping for something concerning Rand making amends to Tam, Hurin, and others.

[Sharaman]

Another thing i was wondering about, is what is going to be happening with Rand's nausea when he goes for the OP now.  Now that LT is gone/has been... absorbed or w/e you wanna call it, there will obviously be no more struggle to grab the OP.  Will he up-chuck when he grabs it still, or has that been solved now too?

 

I thought Rand's nausea comes, for unknown reasons, from the link with Moridin. His problem with LTT is that the insane creature in his brain used to try to seize saidin, not nausea as such.

[Kelitor]

Here's my little fantasy.

 

Rand and Fortuona agree to meet again. Rand doesn't think, and foolishly allows Alivia to be part of his entourage. Since Fortuona is Empress, she puts herself higher then Rand. This makes Rand and company a little cranky, since they don't really take well to the idea that they aren't allowed to look her in the eyes and all that. Alivia, who snuck an a'dam along just for this sort of thing, makes a point by suddenly getting it around Fortuona's neck. Mass hysteria ensues as the entirety of the Seanchan Blood realize that all Sul'dam are really marath'damane. It looks like everyone is going to die when Rand offers a solution. He offers to kneel, swear the Oaths of Return, and give the Empire jurisdiction over the nations he controls, provided the Damane system is abandoned, and maybe slavery abolished. They agree. Rand kneels, the A'dam come off the damane, everyone cheers/cries/whatever.

 

 

[jemron]

Here's my little fantasy.

 

Rand and Fortuona agree to meet again. Rand doesn't think, and foolishly allows Alivia to be part of his entourage. Since Fortuona is Empress, she puts herself higher then Rand. This makes Rand and company a little cranky, since they don't really take well to the idea that they aren't allowed to look her in the eyes and all that. Alivia, who snuck an a'dam along just for this sort of thing, makes a point by suddenly getting it around Fortuona's neck. Mass hysteria ensues as the entirety of the Seanchan Blood realize that all Sul'dam are really marath'damane. It looks like everyone is going to die when Rand offers a solution. He offers to kneel, swear the Oaths of Return, and give the Empire jurisdiction over the nations he controls, provided the Damane system is abandoned, and maybe slavery abolished. They agree. Rand kneels, the A'dam come off the damane, everyone cheers/cries/whatever.

 

 

 

I wouldn't mind seeing it happen like that.  Though it would be cool also if Mat were somehow involved too.

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

I agree with Jillain Sanche, that's been my speculation.  The Black Tower and The Tower of Ghenjei.

 

I see this.

Mat, Thom, Noal going into the Tower to rescue Moiraine.  Mat has already asked his questions and has had his wish, so there is the question of will he get another or will there be some sort of struggle?  I think it is likely that someone is going to die inside.  Noal is Jain, no question there.  So he was a tool for Ishamael, or so the stories say.  I've been interested in this fellow since he appeared on the barrel back in Ebou Dar.  He saved Mat from the gholam but that doesn't make him a good guy per say.  Given what we know of Darkfriends (Verin, Ingtar) there are some out there that must feel drawn back to the Light thanks to the ta'veren pull.  I hope this is the case with Noal.  Redemption is a theme I am immensely fond of.

 

With the Black Tower...

 

I think this is the part of the series where The Forces of Light and the Shadow essentially pick teams.

We will see the unveiling of the Dreadlords, and the Whose Who for the Light.  I am stoked for Logain's unveiling of the DeathGates and the Arrows.  What were the others?  Blossoms of Fire?  Whatever they're called I hope he has the sense to invert his weaves, because let's face it, you don't want the Dark Asha'man learning those.  I think this is where the Black Ajah and the Black Asha will link and butcher many Dragonsworn, but in all Logain and his retinue will win the glory Min saw.

 

As for Rand and Mat and Perrin, we will see them linking up.  I think they need to stay together for the rest of the series, because as I see it, before they left the Two Rivers they were the eye of the storm, three ta'veren in one place while the rest of the world went on around them, like a whirlpool.  Then they started their journey, and travelled like a tornado through the land, stirring the pot and gathering people into their vacuum.  Eventually the tornado gets so big it breaks into three and they spread around chaotically.  This is where things started to go wrong (Rand-in-a-box), Mat trapped in EbouDar for ten years, Faile kidnapped courtesy of Forsaken scheming and Rand ordering him to stop Masema.  Perrin should have stayed with Rand and helped him reason, tried to keep him same.  Mat too, Mat is a great character though and I suppose he needed to be set free, but I always felt that Perrin was good for Rand.  I think this will be the focus of the Two Rivers Three in ToM, they need to reunite to begin laying the groundwork.  Lan is out scouting as far as I see it, and Nynaeve has seen to it that Malkier will rise again.  I don't see Lan dying, and if he does I'm sure Nynaeve will sort that out.  She's quite resourceful.  Egwene will come around, as the Amyrlin of course and she'll tear into him over the near balefiring of Tam Al'Thor.  I think Cadsuane will bond Tam.  That seems like it could be awesome, if he was essentially Rand's new stepmama.  She's a Green after all.  Ooooooh.  Rand might even get a spanking out of the deal.  I think Rand needs to swear on the Oath Rod.  That would be impressive and certainly helpful should the madness take him.

 

Logain for T'Amyrlin!  The Male and Female Aes Sedai (the leftovers after the Black Tower Incident) will get to link with Rand, and Cadusane will teach all the MegaCircle.

 

[RenaldFanwar]

Here's my little fantasy.

 

Rand and Fortuona agree to meet again. Rand doesn't think, and foolishly allows Alivia to be part of his entourage. Since Fortuona is Empress, she puts herself higher then Rand. This makes Rand and company a little cranky, since they don't really take well to the idea that they aren't allowed to look her in the eyes and all that. Alivia, who snuck an a'dam along just for this sort of thing, makes a point by suddenly getting it around Fortuona's neck. Mass hysteria ensues as the entirety of the Seanchan Blood realize that all Sul'dam are really marath'damane. It looks like everyone is going to die when Rand offers a solution. He offers to kneel, swear the Oaths of Return, and give the Empire jurisdiction over the nations he controls, provided the Damane system is abandoned, and maybe slavery abolished. They agree. Rand kneels, the A'dam come off the damane, everyone cheers/cries/whatever.

 

 

 

But doesn't the Seachan prophecies explicitely decribe Rand kneeling before the"Crystal Throne"? Would Rand kneeling in front of the Empress in westlands suffice?

Although, now that Seanchan has a reasonable chance of possessing "Traveling" through Elaida's assistance, I guess they could make that scenario happen quite easily if they had to.

The Crystal Throne being a ter'angreal which creates a "measure of awe" in everyone's mind, I always thought that Rand would be cuaght up in its effect too(if he somehow managed to ge to the Seanchan royal court), whether he wanted to, or not! And I am not sure an old damane like Alivia would be allowed in the presence of the Empress, even if she came with the Dragon Reborn. Besides,if she was to achieve something big other than helping Rand die, wouldnt Min have had a viewing about it too?

 

[coteaz]

I dont think rand will kneel, that was a corrupt prophecy, he will bind the nine moons to himself however.

[elec1cele]

I really don't think Fortuona has worked with an a'dam long enough to be leashed with it. 

 

She doesn't work as a Sul'dam full time it is a hobby of hers.  Sul'dam have to work with an a'dam for a long time before they are able to be collared with it basically they have to be right on the cusp of being able to channel.  Also she is only about 21( as near as I can tell) the Seanchan test women until they turn 25 to see if they can be leashed.

[karehiro]

The Crystal Throne seems like a ter'angreal that uses low-level Compulsion, so it should be completely ineffective against someone like Rand.  Rand by himself can achieve an analogous effect with his ta'veren/dark aura power, as even Tuon got swept up in his power as well as Cadsuane.

[maradon]

As far as I can tell ToM will be the set up for AMoL (rounding off unfinished stories and getting the forces of the light into a defensible position). So what stories are there to round off;

• 1.Matt, Thom and Noal rescuring Moraine
  
• 2.Perrin meeting up with Galad, and also coming to terms (again) with the wolves
  
• 3.Aviendha going through the WO's trial
  
• 4.Elayne giving birth
  
• 5.Lan arriving at Tarwins Gap
  
• 6.Someone finding and destroying another Forsaken
  
• 7.Rand kneeling to the crystal throne, and the forces of the light lead by the Seanchan (Matt)
  
• 8.Someone sorts those damn borderlanders out!
  
• 9.Perhaps a siege or skirmish somewhere along the blight.
  

 

So then Matt rescuring Moraine has been universally accepted as going to happen. We already know that Perrin has met up with Galad, and that his camp now about Morgase. Also he's going to have to reconcile with the wolves and sort all that out once more. Aviendha learning something vital in Rhuidean would be cool. Elayne needs to give birth as we'll be seeing her at the last battle leading the forces of Andor. Lan will arrive at Tarwins gap (this could be the closing scene). Another Forsaken needs to bite the dust, maybe Mesaana. Rand needs to kneel to the crystal throne at some point so that the Seanchan can create order etc. before the LB. The Borderlanders, I think have been moved away from the Blight because they are some of rands best shock troops. I mean how amazing will 250,000 heavy cavalry be for harrasing a horde of trollocs with the use of gateways. And generally we'll need to be placed into a position where we can see no possible victory for the light, otherwise it just wont be fun.

[coteaz]

Why does everyone insist that rand will kneel to the crystal throne? it is a false prophecy, or is there something that im missing?

[elec1cele]

Why does everyone insist that rand will kneel to the crystal throne? it is a false prophecy, or is there something that im missing?

 

Up until yesterday I 100% agreed with you.  But then I saw somewhere(can't find it now) that Brandon had answered a question about where the Seanchan prophecies came from and he said he wasn't going to go into it but it would be covered in the outriggers if they ever get written.  While this doesn't mean that they are true it does to me at least imply that some of them might be.

 

Still I think for the most part the Seanchan prophecies are a red herring meant to throw people off.  As to why most people believe them I think the only place it is mentioned directly that Ishy corrupted them is in the BWB. 

[Sentinel78]

I'm pretty sure we were told by RJ that the Seanchan Dragon-prophecies were corrupted by Ishamael somewhat, but that doesn't mean that all of it was, or that Rand's kneeling to the Crystal Throne was.  Ishamael likely would have corrupted them by Compelling some of the Seanchan channelers into spewing out some fake foretellings during one of his 40 years per millennium spin-outs, which means it has some poison pills in it but is not completely false.  The Wolf King part is obviously correct, at least the parts we know about it. 

[RenaldFanwar]

Why does everyone insist that rand will kneel to the crystal throne? it is a false prophecy, or is there something that im missing?

Because Seanchan, as a people are much like Aiel, despite the differences. They don't care about what other people say about Dragon Reborn. The Aiel didn't follow Rand because he completed wetlander prophecy by taking Callandor, they did it because he fulfilled their prophecies. Likewise the Seanchan will not be so easily forced to accept some other people's beliefs when they themselves have been following a prophecy for millenia.

  So, the only rational thing left for Rand to do if he wants Seanchan forces as an ally, is to complete their prophecies even if he knows them to be "corrupt",becauase that is "what must be done".

 

And we all know that Rand's dark aura/taveren thing didn't work on Tuon even when she wasn't Empress. Would anyone say that it would work on her, now that she is Empress?

[Sharaman]

I really don't think Fortuona has worked with an a'dam long enough to be leashed with it. 

 

She doesn't work as a Sul'dam full time it is a hobby of hers.  Sul'dam have to work with an a'dam for a long time before they are able to be collared with it basically they have to be right on the cusp of being able to channel.  Also she is only about 21( as near as I can tell) the Seanchan test women until they turn 25 to see if they can be leashed.

She's proficient enough and practised enough to control two AS simultaneously - the only such example we've seen. The a'dam would certainly hold her, the oath rod would also certainly bind her.

[maradon]

And we all know that Rand's dark aura/taveren thing didn't work on Tuon even when she wasn't Empress. Would anyone say that it would work on her, now that she is Empress?

 

I think that was Rands taveren did work. The whole thing comes from Tuons POV, and we can see that she does want to agree to the ceasefire;

(this is a fairly long quote, so bear with me)

"You must call off your attacks," he said, nearly a whisper. "You must sign a treaty with me. These are not requests. They are my will."

Tuon found herself longing, suddenly, to obey him. To please him. A treaty. A treaty would be excellent, it would give her a chance to stabilize her hold on the lands here..... So many possibilities opened to her, as if her mind were suddenly determined to see every advantage of the alliance and none of the flaws.

 

Eventually she blurts out that she will not agree to the treaty, even though from her own thoughts we can see that she definitely wants to. It is classic taveren behaviour, a person saying the last thing they expected to. Some people may claim that Rand is using compulsion, but if he was why would he stop at the very last moment allowing her to say no? To me it can only be taveren behaviour, the pattern did not want to have Rand and the Seanchan allied at that specific point because Egwene was still captured in the tower and it needed the Seanchan attack to set her up as the Amyrlin Seat.

 

On a different point; I never new that Ishamael had corrupted some of the Seanchan prophecies, but it does make sense. The two prophecies that come to mind are he (the dargon reborn) will bind the nine moons to him and the other is that Rand will kneel before the crystal throne. These two seem contradictory as how is Rand binding the nine moons to him if he's giving up control to the crystal throne? Anyway, hope that all makes sense:)

[Ashaman DeRouge]

Not sure what exactly it means, but now Galad is in charge of the Whitecloaks, and Morgase signed that agreement that Whitecloaks can roam freely in Andor, is some sort of alliance between Amadicia and Andor in the works here?

 

Galad is essentially ruler of Amadicia, his sister Elayne ruler of Andor... Carheinen folk could be convinced to follow either. Perrin will seed the two rivers back to Andor, but will probably end up with Saldea, and Tear is basically Rand's to give, despite the new King.

 

It all looks very neat and tidy! Suspiciously so... Or perhaps sleep deprivation is kicking in, either way!

[elec1cele]

She's proficient enough and practised enough to control two AS simultaneously - the only such example we've seen. The a'dam would certainly hold her, the oath rod would also certainly bind her.

 

No one else has had a reason to try and control 2 at once.  Their are many more Sul'dam then damane, some can go quite a while without being linked to a damane.

 

I could be wrong, their are lots of things we don't know.  The typical age at which one becomes a Sul'dam would be helpful. As would how long those that see weaves w/o being linked have typically worked before that happens.

 

I have always had the impression you had to work with the a'dam for years before you could be leashed with it.

[Mr Ares]

Galad is essentially ruler of Amadicia, his sister Elayne ruler of Andor... Carheinen folk could be convinced to follow either. Perrin will seed the two rivers back to Andor, but will probably end up with Saldea, and Tear is basically Rand's to give, despite the new King.

 

Or perhaps sleep deprivation is kicking in, either way!

I think sleep deprivation has kicked in, as you apparently forgot that the Seanchan rule in Amadicia now - Galad has no real influence there at all.

[BlastOff]

Perrin will seed the two rivers back to Andor, but will probably end up with Saldea,

 

Well the Two Rivers already belongs to Andor. If Perrin went up to Elayne and said "Hey, you can have the Two Rivers back." She'd laugh in his face.