Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[Sentinel78]

Demandred said that is rule is secure and armies ready  to march. Personally i beleive he has taken control of Shara. Its the only place that we havent really seen. I doubt he is ruling in the borderlands.

 

Shara's possibly just because it's a huge unknown.  Another possibility is that he's controlling the Legion of the Dragon, which has pretty significant numbers now and we have no idea who is controlling them.  I wouldn't put it past Demandred to try to play it off as if he was Rand with them in truth.  Although, some of the Legion of the Dragon would have seen/met Rand during the Sammael take-down in Illian... He might be using Illusion, who knows. 

 

Shara is still very possible.  Demandred being with the Borderlanders never made much sense to me.

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

I think Demandred is leading the Dreadlord army via many proxies (Taim, Roederan, .  I believe he has ties in the Black Tower, that Taim is one of his, but not HIM directly.  Also I don't buy the Shara-Demandred theory.  Like one poster said her earlier it's too late in the game to be rolling in with a new culture.  Now, I don't dispute that Sharans will have some part to play in the end battle.  As I understand they're all at the tribal sophistication levels, so perhaps Demandred will bring a massive force of loin cloth wearing club wielders...  But that'd be kinda lame wouldn't it?  Won't the trollocs be the main Dark fighting force?  Who knows.  There is all this supposition that TG won't be fought like that, but I think there will be fights on every front...

 

I think Demandred is posing as Roederan, with his 35,000 strong army only a few days ride out of Caemlyn.  If you put the Borderlanders in Far Madding that puts one army on either side of the Hills of Kimbara, with an equidistant ride north to Where????  Caemlyn!  So if you think 35,000 trained soldiers isn't 'gathering for war', try adding the Borderlander Heavy Cavalry...  The combined forces would be more than enough to seige up Caemlyn without much effort.  Aside from King Roederan, there is no other nation whose rule is secure.  All other nations are otherwise occupied running errands for the Dragon Reborn.  In fact, Rand hasn't even mentioned Roederan, seeming to have forgotten Murandy all together.  This is the last available hiding spot in Randland, and it is run by a man who hasn't appeared in the series yet, except indirectly, through his dealing with Talmanes...

 

I refer chapter 18 of the Path of Daggers...

 

Talmanes is in Egwene's tent talking with Lord Pelivar, whose ugly noble retinue includes Murandians that were introduced to Egwene by SHERIAM (Black Ajah).  He is described as having an 'amused smile that did not reach his eyes' (classing darkfriend indicator).  He (talmanes) goes on to inform Egwene that Roedran has offered to pay a years salary to the Band and has increased their numbers (darkfriend plants).  Their conversation is being watched by HALIMA and Siuan.  Talmanes is pressing Egwene for details of where Mat is, and she buckles, but he already somehow knew where Mat was.  Also, he mentions that Roedran cannot be ready before spring.  Roedran IS gathering for war, and thanks to the Band, his rule of Murandy is finally secure.

 

With all that evidence it seems like Shara is a little 'outside the box'.  I think Roedran is Demandred, and anyone who thinks Demandred would be 'weak' with 35,000 troops, has to remember that he has also infiltrated the Band, and likely the Black Tower, considering Demandred is giving orders to Asha'man there.  I think Demandred is playing a very wide spectrum on the field.  Not putting all his eggs in one basket.  With his Asha'man support, plus the nearby Borderlanders, King Roedemandred will have no problem lashing out when the Last Battle comes.

 

 

[Sentinel78]

Every darkfriend on the planet has Mat's picture with orders to kill.  How could Talmanes possibly be a darkfriend?  You'd think Moridin would think to contact Mat's #2 in command and say "Hey, why don't you kill Mat?" as opposed to blindly issuing pictures of Perrin/Mat to every darkfriend.

 

They can't even find Mat right now.  Everyone with Mat (aside from Verin for a minute - ha) is virtually guaranteed NOT to be a darkfriend. 

 

Except maybe Olver... He's a little TOO ugly...

[bobsbarricades]

I bet Olver is Birgitta's ugly lover finally spun out of the pattern.    What was his name?  Gaidal Kain?

[Sentinel78]

I bet Olver is Birgitta's ugly lover finally spun out of the pattern.    What was his name?  Gaidal Kain?

 

This theory comes up from time to time.  RJ explicitly rules this out.  Olver is not Gaidal Cain.  The rate at which time moves in TAR varies with respect to the waking world, but they never flow in reverse.  Gaidal Cain was seen in book IV (like 18 months ago in the series), and Olver is almost a teenager.  Olver is not Cain.

[jemron]

I bet Olver is Birgitta's ugly lover finally spun out of the pattern.    What was his name?  Gaidal Kain?

 

What Sentinal78 said.

[Muad Cheade]

Demandred is not in Murandy. The army is inferior. It is inferior in number to the four major forces around him, Elayne in Andor, the Borderlanders in Far madding, the Seanchan (they have two armies of 100,000+ on both the  aron the Illian and the Murandy borders with suldam), and Rand's forces on the Illian border. The majority of Roedran's soldiers are under-trained and newly recruited. It is also inferior in channelers as soon as the Dreadlords are thrown out of Black Tower (if that happens) I don't think they will head straight to Murandy.

 

It is unlikely the Borderlanders will ally to the Shadow as that is against their nature and even if some of the rulers do, that does not mean their men are.

 

Talmanes is in Egwene's tent talking with Lord Pelivar, whose ugly noble retinue includes Murandians that were introduced to Egwene by SHERIAM (Black Ajah).  He is described as having an 'amused smile that did not reach his eyes' (classing darkfriend indicator).  He (talmanes) goes on to inform Egwene that Roedran has offered to pay a years salary to the Band and has increased their numbers (darkfriend plants).  Their conversation is being watched by HALIMA and Siuan.  Talmanes is pressing Egwene for details of where Mat is, and she buckles, but he already somehow knew where Mat was.  Also, he mentions that Roedran cannot be ready before spring.  Roedran IS gathering for war, and thanks to the Band, his rule of Murandy is finally secure.

 

The Murandians were with the Andorans to prevent the Aes Sedai from crossing further into Murandy and Andor. Talmanes rarely ever "really smiles." That quote has been used several times to describe people who were not DarkFriends. They were also being watched by several others as he is a leader of a Dragonsworn army. We have no reason to assume the majority of men from the Band are Murandians. He already knows because as he said "many of those who were in the Band have felt a pulling to the south." It is simply ta'avern. If Talmanes was really a DarkFriend or a lot of men from the Band were, Mat would already be dead as Moridin has ordered Perrin and Mat to be killed.

 

With all that evidence it seems like Shara is a little 'outside the box'.

 

As outside of the box as hundreds of thousands of Seanchan coming across the Aryth Ocean?

 

I think Roedran is Demandred, and anyone who thinks Demandred would be 'weak' with 35,000 troops, has to remember that he has also infiltrated the Band, and likely the Black Tower, considering Demandred is giving orders to Asha'man there.  I think Demandred is playing a very wide spectrum on the field.  Not putting all his eggs in one basket.  With his Asha'man support, plus the nearby Borderlanders, King Roedemandred will have no problem lashing out when the Last Battle comes.

 

Moridin is more in control of the Black Tower than Demandred is. I don't think Moridin would approve of those orders he gave to the Asha'man.

[ultramagnus]

I think Demandred is posing as Roederan, with his 35,000 strong army only a few days ride out of Caemlyn....  

 

I completely forgot about Roederan and Murandy, well said. 

[jemron]

I don't care what you all say, I think it would be cool if Shara came into the picture.  And I think it would be a cool idea of Demandred has been posing as the Dragon Reborn in Shara (though I don't think that is possible, since the Pattern won't allow False Dragons once the true Dragon has revealed himself).

 

With that said... It's probably not going to happen.  He's probably either Roederan (sp?), or he's with the BT (my belief), or he's with the Borderlanders (though I think that's where Fain has been hiding out, not Demandred).

[Mortimer]

With regard to Demandred, we haven't visited the Black Tower much in the last 2 books, and we also haven't heard from Demandred. Coincidence?

[Sentinel78]

With regard to Demandred, we haven't visited the Black Tower much in the last 2 books, and we also haven't heard from Demandred. Coincidence?

 

By that logic, we haven't seen much in Shara (ever), the continent of Seanchan (since Rand and Aviendha first hooked up in the Far Snows Chpt of Fires of Heaven), the Legion of the Dragon's training camp, Murandy or the Borderlanders. 

 

Aside from that, if Demandred was at the Black Tower as Taim's puppeteer, I doubt Demandred would have traveled to Shadar Logoth by himself to take on Rand with the CK in Winter's Heart.  You'd think he be like "Hey, you idiots, follow me!".  After all, Demandred's own POV states the following during the taint cleansing battle scene:

 

He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the

men they commanded!

 

A general doesn't leave his army behind when he goes to war. 

 

[Elros]

So my friend loaned me TEOTW last year and I plowed through the series so clearly I'm new here, so I'll shoot for things that make no sense.

 

So It seems to be common knowlegdge among the Seachan that Rand will kneel before the chystal throne. Could mean a lot of things but what if it means that Fortuana will be 1 of the 2 that wield Callandor with Rand.

 

Callandor is mentioned constantly in the book and has as much screen time as many characters my guess is Fortuana is one of the two women to help wield it. I'm not sure on the other. Also I expect the sword that is not a sword to become a sword.

 

Also I keep thinking about Lan's story line. He is locked in on the "showing up at just the right moment when all hope is lost" theme. (see also aragorn and lancelot) With the legend of Malkeri behind him, no kings in the borderland, and the pattern pulling men to the last battle you can bet his army will be ridiculous when it shows up. And though the"showing up at just the right moment when all hope is lost" theme is used a lot it usually works quite well and I expect we will still be surprised as we read it.

 

So LTT sealed the dark one in and caused the taint by using half of the power to close the bore.  I'm guessing something else drastic will happen when he is sealed in again. No more access to the one power. Maybe just shortly but it will happen in the early strokes of TG.

 

Picture this.  The dragon is victorious over the dark one but his minions remain and the battle plan for defeating the hordes was to use the one power. Instead the forces of Light hold out because of the cannon and crossbows and because Rand made sure all male power wielders can use the sword. Taim never thought it was important so all his dreadlords will be useless without any form of magic. But the trollics are too strong and there isn't enough ammo.  Then Lan shows up with half the world.  He comes over a hill and kills dreadlord Isam or big-ugly-smiling-halfman-whose-name-I-can't-spell.

 

Yes this is too specific and ridiculous so I'll add more banter. Rand in Mua-Dib fashion causes the Three fold land to become the land of the Leaf. Logain is sadly dead because his glory is that of self sacrifice. Elayne dies, Min dies Avi lives but leads the Aiel in taking up the way of the leaf, and Father Christmas brings the twins a pet grolm.

[Mr Ares]

RJ has had a very weak stomach for killing characters, which makes BrS's comment about playing the headsman in the next couple of books interesting to me.

I wouldn't call it a weak stomach, so much as not wanting to waste perfectly good characters in unnecessary death scenes. Also, for major characters he still needed them around. He can't just kill off Rand without completely changing the story, for example. More minor characters, who can be killed without changing the story...well, they are killed off, every now and then. As RJ won't need these characters in future, many who have had to survive this far won't have those guarantess in future. So major character deaths are possible now in a way they weren't before. You may of course be right - BS certainly says there are a number of deaths, but nothing about "quality" - but I won't be surprised if a few big players don't survive the series.

 

Gawyn hasn't been training long enough to be a super blademaster in the first place.

He's in his 20s and he was trained by Byrne when he was a child. The Tower is not where he learned the sword.

 

I found the revelation that both Bryne and Ituralde were blademasters unrealistic. You would think that in Bryne's case we would have heard that before.

Why would Bryne and Ituralde as blademasters be unrealistic? They are in the top list of generals in Randland. The military is not like royalty, they had to do something to get that high up. Since it takes, IFIRC, a vote of five blademasters, or the act of killing one in combat to be given the title. Why is that hard to believe?

Well, bear in mind that being a good general and being a good swordsman are not the same thing. There is no reason why high levels of skill in one would indicate high levels of skill in another. Much like being a great general today wouldn't require one to be a brilliant sniper or something, only a great commander.

 

Galad and Gawyn have trained in the sword since they were boys. If you trained for hours every day for ten to twelve years you had better be good enough to be a blademaster. They have always impressed thier instructors in their skill. I don't find it far fetched that they could kill Blademasters. The title of blademaster has not been made out to be a rarity. Hell, everyone that posses a sword seems to know what symbol denotes one.

Blademasters are supposed to be rare. Knowing what symbol denotes one does not indicate they are not rare.

 

BrS or RJ really screwed up the whole blademaster ranking thing this book.

What blademaster ranking thing? Doesn't matter how good you are, you can still lose. That's come up in the series before. Lan may be better than Sleete, but still lost twice. Ryne was better than Lan, but Lan won. Valda was better than Galad, but Galad won. Galad used to be better than Gawyn, we don't know if that is still the case (Gawyn might have continued to improve). Mat beat Galad and Gawyn using his staff, which he already knew how to use, not his Ashandarei. None of your conclusions follow, because it just doesn't work like that. A good swordsman can lose to a better one, but he can also lose to someone worse, who got lucky on the day, or maybe the better one got overconfident because he thought he'd won, or something. Now, i do accept that Gawyn seemed a little too good when fighting those two Warders - beating one or the other, or one after the other, would be enough, he didn't need to win a handicap match. But there isn't a precise ranking of best to worst, because sometimes you don't need to be better, you just need one good day.

 

I think that in ToM verrin's note will tell matt to give his foxhead to elayne to study. He does so while he goes to the tower (because i doubt he'll need it there), and then by the time he's back from the tower Elayne has been able to duplicate the foxhead. Matts army now immune to asha'man instant death will lead the attack on the black tower.

Elayne is having difficulty touching the Source due to her pregnancy, Mat would be understandably reluctant to give his foxhead to anyone, even at Verin's request, and being immune to Asha'man instant death didn't stop Rahvin's lightning killing him in Caemlyn, did it? Good try, but I don't think so.

[Lobivia]

My guesses, many already mentioned by others

 

Moirain saved. How many times does other characters think of her in TGS? I think the weakest point of the book was the over-foreshadowing used. I guess Oliver is the third but Noel or Allundra is not impossible either.

 

Black Tower broken. Maybe followed by unification of Black and White tower.

 

I don't think Fain will have a major part of the book. He is needed in the last book and in the sealing. If Fain isn't involved himself, the dagger will be. Fain and his dagger has not been just a side story. There will be a lot of foreshadowing of Fain on the other side.

 

The three be one I thought would be LTT, Rand and Moridin, but when I read the other posts I found OP/TP likely as well. I still thinks the first one is the more likely one. TP is the dark one himself so I think it will be unlikely that it is used to seal DO away. More likely Fains dagger will be the buffer that separates OP from DO and saves OP from being tainted.

 

Rand might actually abandon the idea of killing DO now that he is just human again. I wonder if he will stop bending the pattern with force as well.

 

 

[Sentinel78]

Moirain saved. How many times does other characters think of her in TGS? I think the weakest point of the book was the over-foreshadowing used. I guess Oliver is the third but Noel or Allundra is not impossible either.

 

The third person for the Ghenjei-rescue mission is described as a "man" that Moiraine does not know.  Olver is a child, not a man.  Aludra is a woman, or else she might have some explaining to do to Mat.  Noal (i.e., Jain Farstrider) is going to be the third person most likely.  'Small' chance it'll be Domon only because Domon knows exactly where the Tower is, but Noal volunteered so that's unlikely. 

 

So unless Olver wakes up as a grown Gaidal Cain like Tom Hanks in Big, that's not happening (yes, I know Olver is not Cain, just a joke)

[charis sedai]

RJ has stated that the main sequence of books will never return to Seanchan, so that wont happen.

 

True. However, as much as I would like to see Shara, I think Seandar makes more sense.

[Lobivia]

Moirain saved. How many times does other characters think of her in TGS? I think the weakest point of the book was the over-foreshadowing used. I guess Oliver is the third but Noel or Allundra is not impossible either.

 

The third person for the Ghenjei-rescue mission is described as a "man" that Moiraine does not know.  Olver is a child, not a man.  Aludra is a woman, or else she might have some explaining to do to Mat.  Noal (i.e., Jain Farstrider) is going to be the third person most likely.  'Small' chance it'll be Domon only because Domon knows exactly where the Tower is, but Noal volunteered so that's unlikely. 

 

So unless Olver wakes up as a grown Gaidal Cain like Tom Hanks in Big, that's not happening (yes, I know Olver is not Cain, just a joke)

 

Yes, your probably right. Aludra at least is out of the question and Noel is in again.

[charis sedai]

 

It was toward the end of the book, when Min basically verbally gave them all the smackdown line.  I don't remember the exact words, but the impetus was, "when are you all going to stop trying to MAKE him do what you think is right?"  Moiraine pegged it exactly when she remembered that you had to surrender sometimes to gain control...these other Aes Sedai need to remember that as well...

 

I like this point hadn't thought of it before: To learn to channel saidar, you must first surrender to it before you can control it. i know saidin is not like that, but isn't it possible that this concept will come into play?

[Mordecai]

possibilities of demandred being Mazrim Taim, or Controlling the Borderlanders army?

 

at one point i think it said the he already has an army, at the forsaken meeting.

 

other possibilities?

[charis sedai]

I feel like the Seanchan either have to have some shattering change in their policy about channelers or they'll have to retreat to Seanchan after TG. They seem pretty comfortable in Randland right now, and the peoples they've conquered also seem content. The big conflict, really stressed in this book, was their feeling about channelers. Will someone finally unequivocally reveal that the sul'dam can channel? Will it break them? If the answer to those questions is yes, will that "encourage" them to ally at least temporarily with Rand?

 

 

Let's not forget that ForTOUNa was a der'sul'dam- THE EMPRESS of the seancha can channel. I think all it would take to get all of them buying that is Rand/one of his Aes Sedai helpers slapping a collar on her for a bit- thereby possibly binding her to him?

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

possibilities of demandred being Mazrim Taim, or Controlling the Borderlanders army?

Robert Jordan stated that this is not the case.  Unless he lied, then your theory is hooped.

at one point i think it said the he already has an army, at the forsaken meeting.

His words were such.  "My rule is secure.  I gather for war."  - Prologue, The Gathering Storm

other possibilities?

 

1.)  This thread's favorite theory...  Shara.  (To disagree is to be rebuked constantly)

2.)  King Roedran of Murandy, or a proxy close to the throne.  RJ says we haven't met Demandred's alter ego, we haven't ever met Roedran.  He's got 35,000 troops plus has bolstered the numbers within the Band of the Red Hand (Darkfriend plants within the Band, waiting for Tarmon Gai'don to defect on the battlefield).

3.)  He is back on Seandar, orchestrating the rebellion that brought down Tuon's mama and will arrive with filthy Seanchan rabble to Tarmon Gai'don via gateway...  (Only forsaken and non shadowspawn (rabble) can pass through gateways, so this is possible)

 

i pick #2 for my own reasons.  i have investigated this in previous threads...  But regulars have their opinions and are quick to shut a guy down.

[Shard]

I think the Borderlanders is another option, though I do like the idea about King Roedran. Shara just seems pointless, Demandred wants in the game even though he's been keeping out from Rand's notice I am sure that man wants to best Lews Therin. My vote is still with the Borderlanders 200,000 soldiers plus 13 AS away from the Border just seems too perfect a Forsaken plot for it not to be one.

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

I think the Borderlanders is another option, though I do like the idea about King Roedran. Shara just seems pointless, Demandred wants in the game even though he's been keeping out from Rand's notice I am sure that man wants to best Lews Therin. My vote is still with the Borderlanders 200,000 soldiers plus 13 AS away from the Border just seems too perfect a Forsaken plot for it not to be one.

 

It does seem that way, and I know they do have the 13 sisters...  Perhaps Roedran and the Borderlanders are in kahouts...

If you notice that Murandy and Far Madding (the current locale of the Borderlanders) are close together, (seperated by the Hills of Kimbara) and are both equal distance to Caemlyn. I think there will be a massive battle at Caemlyn (echoes of Manetheren) that will be a part of the Last Battle.  If you add that they might have 200,000 Seanchan loyal to Suroth mustering on Illian.  (they might not be loyal to Suroth, but Fortuona seems to have little control over them).

 

Roedran's Murandian Army 35,000

Borderland Heavy Cavalry 200,000

Seanchan Darkfriend Army 200,000

 

I don't care how you look at it.  That's trouble.

[happypants]

At some point in these next two volumes I believe we are going to see the "13 BA/13 Mydraal turning" phenomenon as a major plot device. Didn't Brandon state in one of the recent interviews that something is going to happen that's never really talked about on these boards but should be remembered? It seems like this phenomenon is something no one ever really considers anymore as it hasn't been mentioned since the earlier books.

 

Any thoughts on that?

[charis sedai]

A couple o' thoughts:

 

"three become one"My bet is not on OP and TP.

For one- Sure, there's saidar and saidin, but they're the OP. And the TP is bad news. Its the DO. Why would that seal him up?

My bet is Avi, Elayne and Min, somehow. Them being Ilyena has been mentioned, And I think it is possible... But those three will reunite for sure.

If it isn't the girls, it'll be the boys- Rand, Mat and Perrin.

Either way, those three will come together also.

 

The Seanchan Problem

will obviously need Mat. I know it seems unlikely, but we've heard too much about ForTOUNa's training of damane for it to not play some bigger role. And I have to believe if the empress can channel, the empire will do some shifting of their beliefs.

 

Demandred

is not Taim, although I would really like him to be.

He is not in Shara. Crucify me for that if you like, but it simply does not make sense to introduce the Sharans NOW. The last two books are going to be long enough without bringing in a completly new people.

He is not Roedran. We've had that PoV, and why wouldn't we have gotten a single clue?

He may be with the borderlanders. Maybe.

I still think it is more likely he is in Seandar. After all, Semirhage was a part of the invasion, not of the home base.

 

Rand

My question here is: Is Rand really better? What if he has just truly cracked his nut? What if he now remembers nothing about Rand Al'thor? What happens then? After all, The line in TGS about "they had never really been two men" or whatever the exact words are is not exactly 100% reassuring. Don't get me wrong, i'm glad he's laughing again, but what if it is a madman's laugh?