Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[Charlz Guybon]

Gawyn hasn't been training long enough to be a super blademaster in the first place.

 

He's in his 20s and he was trained by Byrne when he was a child. The Tower is not where he learned the sword.

 

I found the revelation that both Bryne and Ituralde were blademasters unrealistic. You would think that in Bryne's case we would have heard that before.

[Robo-Hillbilly]

Gawyn hasn't been training long enough to be a super blademaster in the first place.

 

He's in his 20s and he was trained by Byrne when he was a child. The Tower is not where he learned the sword.

 

I found the revelation that both Bryne and Ituralde were blademasters unrealistic. You would think that in Bryne's case we would have heard that before.

 

Why would Bryne and Ituralde as blademasters be unrealistic? They are in the top list of generals in Randland. The military is not like royalty, they had to do something to get that high up. Since it takes, IFIRC, a vote of five blademasters, or the act of killing one in combat to be given the title. Why is that hard to believe?

 

Galad and Gawyn have trained in the sword since they were boys. If you trained for hours every day for ten to twelve years you had better be good enough to be a blademaster. They have always impressed thier instructors in their skill. I don't find it far fetched that they could kill Blademasters. The title of blademaster has not been made out to be a rarity. Hell, everyone that posses a sword seems to know what symbol denotes one.

[elec1cele]

The DO, of course, only has to win once for everything to be over. Conversely, it seems that from the last chapter of TGS that every turning of the Wheel thus far has been a "draw," namely that the DO is sealed up but not permanently, because in the end, he is freed again in the AoL. This is the crux of the frustration Rand had to deal with at the end of the book -- essentially, the same reasons that Elan crossed over to the Shadow, because he believed the end of all things was inevitable. In "Veins of Gold" Rand remembers the many, many past lives of the Dragon, and thinks about how he "wants to do things right this time." This suggests that there actually is a way to end the struggle with the DO once and for all.

 

Perhaps but it almost seems like that would break the wheel as surely as the DO winning would I mean then what happens in the next AOL.  It just doesn't seem to fit with the world mechanism we are told is in place.  Most of the people arguing for this are asking what makes this incarnation unique enough for RJ to write about. 

 

Maybe they are right and Rand will kill the DO and break the wheel and then they can have linear time instead of cyclic time.

[Sentinel78]

I thought the whole do it right this time meant LTT did not do it right (obviously) and Rand wanted to.  While he had at least momentary recognition or impression of his older lives, I don't think the implication that he did it wrong last time applied to ALL of those lives.  If I remember right, Rand's thoughts at this point that he didn't do it right "last time", not all the times that came before. 

 

I think doing it right this time just means resealing the Bore the right way, not the half-assed 7-seal way LTT applied in desperation.  This does not preclude older-versions of the Dragon already having 'done it right'.

[Tel Janin]

Gawyn hasn't been training long enough to be a super blademaster in the first place.

 

He's in his 20s and he was trained by Byrne when he was a child. The Tower is not where he learned the sword.

 

I found the revelation that both Bryne and Ituralde were blademasters unrealistic. You would think that in Bryne's case we would have heard that before.

 

Why would Bryne and Ituralde as blademasters be unrealistic? They are in the top list of generals in Randland. The military is not like royalty, they had to do something to get that high up. Since it takes, IFIRC, a vote of five blademasters, or the act of killing one in combat to be given the title. Why is that hard to believe?

 

Galad and Gawyn have trained in the sword since they were boys. If you trained for hours every day for ten to twelve years you had better be good enough to be a blademaster. They have always impressed thier instructors in their skill. I don't find it far fetched that they could kill Blademasters. The title of blademaster has not been made out to be a rarity. Hell, everyone that posses a sword seems to know what symbol denotes one.

 

I believe Charlz's comment about Bryne's & Ituralde's blademaster status being unrealistic likely stems more from the fact that he thinks, in Bryne's case at least, we should have found out by now; not necessarily that either of them lacks the necessary skill.  I think there were hints, and we all know by now that RJ was not one to come straight out and say something.  For example, in TEOTW, when Rand falls over the wall and is presented to Morgase in her throne room, Bryne says something to the effect that Rand's heron mark sword is his, even if he's too young to have earned the heron.  Whether he carried the blade that way because of some LTT mannerism, or he carried that way becuase of his iron-willed love of Tam, Bryne had the trained eye to spot it immediately.

 

It could also be relative to the fact that the first blademaster we encounter in the series is Lan, who is arguably the best.  That's like trying to base all your evaluations of swordplay against Musashi Miyamoto.  I think it's perhaps jaded all of us a bit when it comes to who in the WoT has been awarded the heron.

 

Technically speaking, Rand became a blademaster the day he slew the High Lord Turak; Gawyn the day he slew Hammar; and Galad the day he slew Eamon Valda.  It doesn't matter how long you've trained.  To become a blademaster you must be chosen as one by a panel of five blademasters, or slay one in single combat.  Period.  Length of training has nothing to do with it.

 

My two coppers.  I could be wrong.  ;)

 

[elec1cele]

I thought the whole do it right this time meant LTT did not do it right (obviously) and Rand wanted to.  While he had at least momentary recognition or impression of his older lives, I don't think the implication that he did it wrong last time applied to ALL of those lives.  If I remember right, Rand's thoughts at this point that he didn't do it right "last time", not all the times that came before.  

 

I think doing it right this time just means resealing the Bore the right way, not the half-assed 7-seal way LTT applied in desperation.  This does not preclude older-versions of the Dragon already having 'done it right'.

 

Good point

 

From pg 759

That's why he fought.  That's why he lived again, and that was the answer to Tam's question.  I fight because last time, I failed.  I fight because I want to fix what I did wrong.

    I want to do it right this time.

 

I much prefer Rand sealing the DO back up permanently[until AOL] theory to the somehow destroying him one.

[ultramagnus]

 

Concerning the location of Demandred.

 

I've read a few of the posts on this thread so I not sure if anyone mention this as a possibility yet or not, but I personally believe Demandred is with the Borderlanders.

 

This seem to be the most logical location for him since he mentions to Moridin in TGS, though I can't remember the exact quote and don't have the book in front of me, that he is gathering for war and something about his place being secure. I would bet that he is masquerading as either one of the kings or possibly one of the generals, though we get the impression that he has a position of high authority such as a ruler. He could be responsible for the uncharacteristic abandonment of the blight border to head south and look for Rand. I have always found it odd that the borderland nations would gather such a large force just to search out Rand, it doesn't add up, or at least to me. They could have sent a smaller force and still keep to large enough force to watch the Blight.

 

Maybe I missed something... and maybe someone already mentioned this theory, if so I agree with you. 

[shadowkiller_001]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this site, but i've been reading RJ's WOT series since i was a kid.

 

I just wanted to know if there is a thread for ideas about the final ending?

 

I was thinking the other day about the prophecies related to rand haveing to die to live. I thought maybe Nynaeve could find a way to heal death, since she's always had a hard time with that. But that the only way she can do it is to die herself, ie. sacrifice herself to save rand. Maybe this could come about aftert Lan dies in the blight, or the final battle and she would have nothing to live for.

 

now that I typed it out though, it doesn't sound like RJ's style...

 

any other ideas on how the final few chapters will play out?

[Sentinel78]

any other ideas on how the final few chapters will play out?

 

I think back to Nicola's Foretelling about "The great battle done but the world not done with battle".  If the great battle is Rand vs. Dark One (killing the DO, tearing down and rebuilding the DO's prison, etc.), then the world not done with battle might be Moridin finally unleashing the horde of shadowspawn he's been breeding.  If this is the case, Towers of Midnight might end with Rand victorious against the DO but then he's either dead or alive somehow but comatose, such that the rest of humanity has to deal with the actual shaowspawn invasion in Memory of Light.

 

Of course, this prophecy might also just mean the great battle is all of Tarmon Gaidon inclusive of Rand vs. DO and also dealing with the shadowspawn, with there still being conflicts among different groups (e.g., Seanchan vs. others) afterwards. 

 

I kind of lean the first direction, because Rand taking out the DO has to be some type of raid on Shayol Ghul, big armies wouldn't really seem to help as your cover is probably going to be provided by the Horn of Valere's heroes anyway, and Moridin is just keeping his shadowspawn on standby because he probably figures that the DO's influence on the world is probably enough to win a war of attrition against humanity.

[AuldGoldBeard]

People thinking the DO is just going to get resealed and we'll have a reset of the same pattern that's been going on since eternity are fooling themselves.  If that were going to be the ending, there'd be no point in reading the series, and no point in writing it in the first place.  Try coming up with another fantasy epic that ends with, "And they were all happy, but they knew in another 1000 years, the bad evil guy could just destroy them all over again, annihilating their souls and ending all time in a mess of death and despair."  Doesn't happen, and there's a reason for that.

 

 

BrS or RJ really screwed up the whole blademaster ranking thing this book.  So Lan, who we've been led to believe is the best swordsman in the world, loses 2 or 3 out of 7 (can't remember) to some random Warder.  Then Gawyn can thump that same Warder and another guy at the same time without taking a scratch.  But Galad could thump Gawyn all around the practice yard without ever losing a match.  And Galad could barely beat Eamon Valda.  And Mat could take out Galad and Gawyn at the same time, even before he got all his memories of how to use the ashandarei.  And then Super Mat, with the ashandarei and the memories, could barely beat Couladin.  We have no reason to believe that Couladin was a super fighter, aside from him being a fake clan chief.  

 

So basically, a good-to-great Aiel fighter could slaughter Lan without even blinking an eye, Valda was far superior to Lan, and now Gawyn and Galad must be too, despite training with the sword for approximately 30 fewer years.  Doesn't add up.

[Bob T Dwarf]

DragonCon 28 June 1997 - SciFi Channel Chat

 

Ishamael: Would Rand technically be a bladesmaster since he killed the Seanchan blademaster [Turak] in The Great Hunt? Or is there more to being a bladesmaster than that? 

RJ: There's more to it than that.

 

James Oliver Rigney III (RJ's nephew)

 

RJ:  Rand is second only to Lan with the sword.

[Thorn]

 

BrS or RJ really screwed up the whole blademaster ranking thing this book.  So Lan, who we've been led to believe is the best swordsman in the world, loses 2 or 3 out of 7 (can't remember) to some random Warder.  Then Gawyn can thump that same Warder and another guy at the same time without taking a scratch.  But Galad could thump Gawyn all around the practice yard without ever losing a match.  And Galad could barely beat Eamon Valda.  And Mat could take out Galad and Gawyn at the same time, even before he got all his memories of how to use the ashandarei.  And then Super Mat, with the ashandarei and the memories, could barely beat Couladin.  We have no reason to believe that Couladin was a super fighter, aside from him being a fake clan chief.  

 

 

I think that's something called "realism." It's not like blademasters all have power levels and you just compare skill levels to see who wins. In the fight where Mat took on Galad and Gawyn, for example, he was taking the fight much more seriously than the two G's were. The random warder who managed to beat Lan 2 out of 7 matches on one day presumably lost hundreds of matches to Lan at other points, and that was years ago (before Lan stopped practicing with other Warders; presumably, he's better now than he was then). Galad now is several year's worth of practice more skilled than he was at the beginning of the series, etc.

 

One thing that's clear is that the Damodred line and the Aiel are both exceptionally gifted martially -- a lot of Rand and Galad's skill is explained by their reflexes, etc., which are apparently at or near human peak ability. So with a few year's worth of training to establish a base of skill, their reflexes give them an edge over older, better trained swordsmen (like Hammar, Turak, etc).

 

 

[Sentinel78]

Regarding the Warder that allegedly beat Lan 3 out of 7 or something like that, the way it was written made it seem like it was that guy's best day in the practice yard ever - not that he could do it consistently.  Also, Lan was a lot younger when they would have fought too.  It was mentioned that their match occurred back when Lan still practiced with other Warders, and who knows the last time Lan was even at the White Tower.  This could have happened like 20 years earlier, back when that Ryne-guy was a better swordsmen than Lan in New Spring, and not the current uber-experienced Lan.

 

That being said, Galad was always made out to be a better swordsman than Gawyn, both in The Dragon Reborn when they fought Mat and later on in Samara when Galad basically singlehandedly took out the mob.  I didn't think he would have had much trouble with Valda, but eh.  So yeah, I was thrown a little by Gawyn turning into uber-Gawyn in TGS.

[Sentinel78]

Thorn beat me to it...

[shadowkiller_001]

Another point that someone touched on earlier, is that when Galad is facing Valda it is Galad's first time fighting a blademaster. Valda would have had much more experience and more mentally prepared for such a fight. This might help explain why Galad had a hard time with the fight. It's not so much that he is less skilled, but that he was facing an opponent who had the mental superiority from experience.

 

 

[AuldGoldBeard]

I think that's something called "realism." It's not like blademasters all have power levels and you just compare skill levels to see who wins. In the fight where Mat took on Galad and Gawyn, for example, he was taking the fight much more seriously than the two G's were. The random warder who managed to beat Lan 2 out of 7 matches on one day presumably lost hundreds of matches to Lan at other points, and that was years ago (before Lan stopped practicing with other Warders; presumably, he's better now than he was then). Galad now is several year's worth of practice more skilled than he was at the beginning of the series, etc.

 

One thing that's clear is that the Damodred line and the Aiel are both exceptionally gifted martially -- a lot of Rand and Galad's skill is explained by their reflexes, etc., which are apparently at or near human peak ability. So with a few year's worth of training to establish a base of skill, their reflexes give them an edge over older, better trained swordsmen (like Hammar, Turak, etc).

 

 

 

Realism would be Hammar running Gawyn through without a second thought.  Realism would be both of those Warders crushing Gawyn.  Realism would be Turak slaughtering Rand.  Not realism, but at least consistency, would be Galad dispatching Valda without too much trouble.  

 

I guess the random Warder just stopped training when Lan left, so he never got any better, right?  Your timeline is also way off, as the entire series has only lasted about 2 years, and Rand was getting sucked through alternative universes via portal stone for at least a couple of months.  So he'd had maybe two months of real practice with the sword when he faced Turak.

 

 

Another point that someone touched on earlier, is that when Galad is facing Valda it is Galad's first time fighting a blademaster. Valda would have had much more experience and more mentally prepared for such a fight. This might help explain why Galad had a hard time with the fight. It's not so much that he is less skilled, but that he was facing an opponent who had the mental superiority from experience.

 

 

 

See Rand v. Turak, or Gawyn v. Hammar.  Galad had at least as much experience sparring against blademasters as either Gawyn or Rand, and none of them had been in a real fight before that.

[monkeypie]

finding out that Olver is Gaidal Cain and him getting some nookie off of Birgitte.

8. Mazrim Taim is, in fact, Damondred

 

 

 

RJ said several times in interviews that Olver IS NOT cain.

 

Taim IS NOT Demandred.

 

He said both several times. please stop posting this garbage

[Sentinel78]

In Rand's fight with Turak, Rand realized he was getting really lucky and was barely able to fend Turak off.  With Rand's level of ta'veren, being 'lucky' is probably an understatement.

[Tathel]

Ok this is 35 pages and i'm on my lunch break so if this has already been put out there sorry to repeat. I think that in ToM verrin's note will tell matt to give his foxhead to elayne to study. He does so while he goes to the tower (because i doubt he'll need it there), and then by the time he's back from the tower Elayne has been able to duplicate the foxhead. Matts army now immune to asha'man instant death will lead the attack on the black tower.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Realism would be Hammar running Gawyn through without a second thought.  Realism would be both of those Warders crushing Gawyn.  Realism would be Turak slaughtering Rand.  Not realism, but at least consistency, would be Galad dispatching Valda without too much trouble.  

 

I guess the random Warder just stopped training when Lan left, so he never got any better, right?  Your timeline is also way off, as the entire series has only lasted about 2 years, and Rand was getting sucked through alternative universes via portal stone for at least a couple of months.  So he'd had maybe two months of real practice with the sword when he faced Turak.

...

See Rand v. Turak, or Gawyn v. Hammar.  Galad had at least as much experience sparring against blademasters as either Gawyn or Rand, and none of them had been in a real fight before that.

 

Sparring matches last a long time, primarily because the object is to workout.

 

Real fights are usually one-punch affairs.  Especially if the fighters know their stuff.

 

All of these fights were cinematic folderol.

[monkeypie]

 

Concerning the location of Demandred.

 

I've read a few of the posts on this thread so I not sure if anyone mention this as a possibility yet or not, but I personally believe Demandred is with the Borderlanders.

 

This seem to be the most logical location for him since he mentions to Moridin in TGS, though I can't remember the exact quote and don't have the book in front of me, that he is gathering for war and something about his place being secure. I would bet that he is masquerading as either one of the kings or possibly one of the generals, though we get the impression that he has a position of high authority such as a ruler. He could be responsible for the uncharacteristic abandonment of the blight border to head south and look for Rand. I have always found it odd that the borderland nations would gather such a large force just to search out Rand, it doesn't add up, or at least to me. They could have sent a smaller force and still keep to large enough force to watch the Blight.

 

 

Demandred said that is rule is secure and armies ready  to march. Personally i beleive he has taken control of Shara. Its the only place that we havent really seen. I doubt he is ruling in the borderlands.

[Edvar alGiven]

I was thinking the other day about the prophecies related to rand haveing to die to live. I thought maybe Nynaeve could find a way to heal death, since she's always had a hard time with that. But that the only way she can do it is to die herself, ie. sacrifice herself to save rand. Maybe this could come about aftert Lan dies in the blight, or the final battle and she would have nothing to live for.

 

now that I typed it out though, it doesn't sound like RJ's style...

 

any other ideas on how the final few chapters will play out?

 

Heres my take. Rand already has tried to revive the dead using Callandor. He would have been successful except for one thing, the thing that makes Healing death impossible for mortals. No soul. Now, I think RJ left a loophole for that. He's going to have to link with 2 woman to use Callandor again. Min predicted Alivia  would 'help him die'. She will be one. I can't imagine Nynaeve would let him link with Alivia without her as she has made it her personal goal to protect Rand from Alivia. Now, the loophole. Rand uses his connection to Moridin to keep his soul(and his saidin, allowing the woman to continue using Callandor) around long enough for Nynaeve to Heal his body and restore his soul. Perhaps they will have to kill Moridin to free Rands soul again... My only question is how does a day dawn twice. Seems to me that Rand will have to use balefire to defeat the DO, but that would do really bad things to the pattern, causing the entire day to be as if if never happened.

 

As for Galad and Gawyn...who says Galad is better? Perhaps Gawyn just doesn't try as hard as he can against Galad. He worships Galad. Galad saved his life when they were children.

[stormcrow]

Galad had a reasonably even fight with a blademaster in KoD. Gawyn defeats Warders, blademasters, and 4 Aiel at the same time as if dealing with children with practice swords. There is no consistency in his skills and are completely out of sync with the skills of those around him. Galad should still be around the same or slightly better than Gawyn with the sword.

 

Rand was able to win against Turak because he is ta'veren. Gawyn has no reason to be able to dispatch 2 Warders/blademasters simultaneously with little effort.

[ultramagnus]

Demandred said that is rule is secure and armies ready  to march. Personally i beleive he has taken control of Shara. Its the only place that we havent really seen. I doubt he is ruling in the borderlands.

 

That is true, there is a possibility he's in Shara. It would be interesting to finally see something of those lands/peoples. Though I still don't think the borderlanders actions add up.

[Paedraig Gaidin]

One of my ideas is that the three become one might be in reference to the White tower, the Black tower, and the Towers of Midnight (assuming that's where the Seanchan train damane) joining together once Rand has bound the nine moons to him.

 

I believe the three must unite refers to saidar, saidin, and the true power.  Somehow Callandor is involved too.  Callandor is unstable unless it is controlled by a female channeler.  I believe all three powers are necessary to reseal the bore, and remake the seals.  That was the mistake the was made by the Aes Sedai at the end of the Age of Legends.  They had only the male channelers.  I suspect that if the female channelers involved both halves of the one power would have become tainted.  Maybe that was the dark one's plan in the first place, tainting both halves of the one power. 

One more thing I think the 3 wielders will Alivia, Rand, and Moridin.  Each will die in the process.

 

I feel like we have seen quite a few "threes" out there that need to unite- and that this isn't talking about one specifically. Rand/LTT/Moridin,Rand/Mat/Perrin,Saidar/Saidin/TP,White Tower,Black Tower/Towers of Midnight(Seanchan),Elayne/Avi/Min(not that they will literally become one-but there is the animosity between Min and Avi- so they must make peace to "become one")-And I am sure there are other "threes" out there that I am forgetting.