Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[Ashaman Kovan]

Didn't forget. Just can't read the prologue.  :'(

[jemron]

Bummed that I couldn't start a new post on this.  But, I'm happy that I was the first to post about the puzzle peaces which clicked in my mind.

 

Graendal was wrong in the prologue of TGS.  Moridin's "black fortress" was not in the blight (at least, not on this side of the Aryth Ocean).  Some people even complained that there was so much emphasis put into Graendal's thoughts ("black rocks!") and that it wasn't very "typical" of RJs writing (even though he probably did write this).

 

Anyway, it seems clear to me that Moridin's fortress is the Towers of Midnight in Imfaral.

 

We know that the literal Towers of Midnight are 13 towers and, to quote RJ directly "a fortress complex, and were... the center of military might, or the forces that were beginning the consolidation before the conquest of Seanchan." (emphasis added).

 

So, my theory goes something like this:

 

Since Semi wrought (reaked?) havoc in Seanchan, the Blight there is no longer dead, and the evil depths of the Blight on that continent are moving back down into the Seanchan territory (as far south as the Towers of Midnight).  Either that or Moridin has been bringing the creatures from the Blight to the continent somehow (Waygates? Portal Stones? Something with the TP?).  The Blight on our side of the Aryth Ocean has been receding because all of the secret preparations that have been going on on the other continent (Seanchan).  Seanchan is where Moridin (and possibly Demandred!!!) are gathering their hoards of Trollocs/Myrdraal/Other for the Last Battle.  It fits so well!

 

On a side note:  I love how Towers of Midnight can also refer to all of the various towers in the series, before the Last Battle.  "Like a thief in the night" comes to mind.  This is that last night before the Last Battle.  This book could be called "Last Battle Eve."

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

A mod should put a spoiler alert on this topic. :) I can't read it anymore lol.

[jemron]

I briefly mentioned this in my previous post on this thread, but to take it one step further, maybe Demandred is actually working with Trolloc troops "preparing for battle" on the Seanchan continent, and that is why Graendal can't figure out where he's been.  Maybe he's been hiding in Seanchan this whole time, and that's why we haven't been able to place him.  Though, I do like the theory that he's been involved with the Dragonsworn, or Murandy, or even the Black Tower (which seems the most obvious).  I'm just throwing this theory out there to stir the pot some more as to Demandred's true whereabouts.

 

This is fun!

[Ereinion]

Graendal was wrong in the prologue of TGS.  Moridin's "black fortress" was not in the blight (at least, not on this side of the Aryth Ocean) ... Anyway, it seems clear to me that Moridin's fortress is the Towers of Midnight in Imfaral. 

 

Where are you getting this exactly? I'm not saying your wrong necessarily, it just seems that the only real thing we have to go on is Graendal: "So, it was the deep northeastern Blight. It had been some time since she’d been here ... Soldiers were necessary to fight off attacks from the various Shadowspawn that inhabited the lands this deep within the blight. Those creatures obeyed no master save for the Great Lord himself. What was Moridin doing all the way out here?"

 

Either that or Moridin has been bringing the creatures from the Blight to the continent somehow

 

Hmmm....??

 

I just really haven't seen anything that would make me think that Graendal is wrong here. BS does have a way of turning things around though.

[Diederichos]

What would be the point of it be from a story-telling sense? We're too emotionally invested in the Westlands to have the penultimate book revolve heavily around an entirely different place, and it's too late in the series to do a lot of the explanatory stuff that would be required. I think Towers of Midnight is a reference to the darkness within the BT, the WT and given that Mat seems most likely to get to Ghenji at the very end of tGS, Ghenji.

[Luckers]

We know it isn't THE Towers of Midnight (as in the Seanchan fortress from which Luthair ruled before the Imperial Court moved to Seandar).

 

We know this because RJ stated that the main sequence books would never return to Seanchan, and a)Brandon wouldn't defy that, and b) the major plot points were laid out by RJ, and he wouldn't have gone against his own word--certainly not massively enough for an entire section of what was to be the last book to be named after a place in Seanchan.

[jemron]

It is just speculation.  It all seemed to fit to me, from what I could remember of the prologue (was too lazy to go back and look at Graendal's exact description).  I guess I should've said "Graendal could be wrong."  She might have mistaken the area for the Northeast Blight, because of the similarities.  On the other hand, she did seem pretty certain, didn't she?

 

I could be wrong, but I think it is a possible theory that can't be completely rejected (not that anybody has rejected it).

 

It just seems like the name is directly taken from the very Towers of Midnight in Seanchan; however, with that being said, that doesn't mean that the literal Towers of Midnight even need to make an appearance in the series.  It could be just based around the story of the Towers of Midnight, or, like many others (including myself) believe, it could be a metaphor for the moments leading up to the Last Battle, and all of the various important Towers in the series.  That's why it is such a good name, IMO.  It has a lot of applications/metaphors/meanings.  That, to me, makes a good book title.  I think A Memory of Light is also an excellent title for the same reasons.

 

I don't know that RJ was totally set on the "what happens in Randland, stays in Randland" quote.  Didn't he say on some occasions that he might return to those continents if he felt the story required it, but that it wasn't necessarily likely to happen?

[Ereinion]

I could see a reference to the towers of midnight in the book. Or perhaps a short, but important(rand/sanchean truce or something of the sort), scene appearing there. I also agree that it probably has somewhat to do with the other towers that have already been mentioned. In my mind I'd prefer it be both rather than one and not the other.

 

edit: I just saw your post Luckers and that makes sense.

[Muad Cheade]

Bummed that I couldn't start a new post on this.  But, I'm happy that I was the first to post about the puzzle peaces which clicked in my mind.

 

Graendal was wrong in the prologue of TGS.  Moridin's "black fortress" was not in the blight (at least, not on this side of the Aryth Ocean).  Some people even complained that there was so much emphasis put into Graendal's thoughts ("black rocks!") and that it wasn't very "typical" of RJs writing (even though he probably did write this).

 

Anyway, it seems clear to me that Moridin's fortress is the Towers of Midnight in Imfaral.

 

We know that the literal Towers of Midnight are 13 towers and, to quote RJ directly "a fortress complex, and were... the center of military might, or the forces that were beginning the consolidation before the conquest of Seanchan." (emphasis added).

 

So, my theory goes something like this:

 

Since Semi wrought (reaked?) havoc in Seanchan, the Blight there is no longer dead, and the evil depths of the Blight on that continent are moving back down into the Seanchan territory (as far south as the Towers of Midnight).  Either that or Moridin has been bringing the creatures from the Blight to the continent somehow (Waygates? Portal Stones? Something with the TP?).  The Blight on our side of the Aryth Ocean has been receding because all of the secret preparations that have been going on on the other continent (Seanchan).  Seanchan is where Moridin (and possibly Demandred!!!) are gathering their hoards of Trollocs/Myrdraal/Other for the Last Battle.  It fits so well!

 

On a side note:  I love how Towers of Midnight can also refer to all of the various towers in the series, before the Last Battle.  "Like a thief in the night" comes to mind.  This is that last night before the Last Battle.  This book could be called "Last Battle Eve."

 

 

Map of Seanchan.

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/File:Seanshanmap.png

 

As you can see, Imfaral is nearly horizontal to Seandar albeit across a large body of water. For the Shadow to have taken Imfaral would mean Seandar would be under their control according to your theory.

 

Trollocs would not be able to be in the Lesser Blight (the one in Seanchan) as it would take an immense time to transport them via the Ways because Mashadar is attracted to large groups of people. That's the reason why there were only about 10,000 Trollocs in the Two Rivers. The Shadow could only move 20 or 30 in a group at a time as Verin noted. They couldn't transfer them through Portal Stones a Rand could barely transfer the hundreds of Aiel to Rhuidien even with the fat man angreal. Also, if Graendal was in Seanchan there would be signs of civilization such as buildings since the Twoers of Midnight are in the sixth largest Seanchan city.

 

Seanchan and Shara are not the primary target of the Shadow. The Westlands are. It makes sense to take them out first and then take out the others.

[jemron]

Again, you're probably right.  But, are we sure that the Ways are the only way to transport Trollocs?

 

Also, maybe I just can't let this one die, but my theory isn't that they are gathering their armies in Seanchan to attack Seanchan, but that, like in the Seanchan history, they could be using Imfaral as a place to prepare their armies outside of the view of the general mainland population (in complete secrecy).

 

Anyway, I can tell my theory is losing steam, but it seemed like an obvious connection at the time.  It just seems cool to think that Moridin is hanging out in a fortress made of 13 black towers called the Towers of Midnight.  It just seems to fit... accept, of course, for the obvious holes in my theory that have been mentioned.

 

Still, that's why this thread is called "Speculation"

[fikkie77]

No-one commented that the Towers of Midnight makes Tom in short? I found that rather funny.

 

The story will not happen in Seandar, though some short POV's might happen in the actual Towers of Midnight. Beyond that, it's only speculation: the book hasn't been finished yet!

[fikkie77]

Again, you're probably right.  But, are we sure that the Ways are the only way to transport Trollocs?

 

Also, maybe I just can't let this one die, but my theory isn't that they are gathering their armies in Seanchan to attack Seanchan, but that, like in the Seanchan history, they could be using Imfaral as a place to prepare their armies outside of the view of the general mainland population (in complete secrecy).

 

Anyway, I can tell my theory is losing steam, but it seemed like an obvious connection at the time.  It just seems cool to think that Moridin is hanging out in a fortress made of 13 black towers called the Towers of Midnight.  It just seems to fit... accept, of course, for the obvious holes in my theory that have been mentioned.

 

Still, that's why this thread is called "Speculation"

Portal Stones can't transport that many shadowspawen, travelling gates kills them, which leaves the Ways as the only possiblility, but they are even too corrupted for shadowspawn.

[Luckers]

I'm gonna have to think on how this spoiler/non-spoiler deal should be handled so we arn't simply having the same conversation back and forth--It's not really working. *sigh*.

 

For the most part jemron I'll leave the RJ quote discussion in the other thread if that's cool, but I would point this out...

 

I don't know that RJ was totally set on the "what happens in Randland, stays in Randland" quote.

 

RJ didn't say what happens in Randland would stay in Randland, he said the main sequence novels would never return to Seanchan.

 

He did also say that he didn't think it would go to Seanchan or Shara, but that he was leaving himself open in case he changed his mind.

 

It just seems like the name is directly taken from the very Towers of Midnight in Seanchan; however, with that being said, that doesn't mean that the literal Towers of Midnight even need to make an appearance in the series.  It could be just based around the story of the Towers of Midnight, or, like many others (including myself) believe, it could be a metaphor for the moments leading up to the Last Battle, and all of the various important Towers in the series.  That's why it is such a good name, IMO.  It has a lot of applications/metaphors/meanings.  That, to me, makes a good book title.  I think A Memory of Light is also an excellent title for the same reasons.

 

I would have thought it would have been titled THE towers of midnight were it to do with reference to them, or relation to the story of them.

 

Still, that interpretation is viable.

 

Also, maybe I just can't let this one die, but my theory isn't that they are gathering their armies in Seanchan to attack Seanchan, but that, like in the Seanchan history, they could be using Imfaral as a place to prepare their armies outside of the view of the general mainland population (in complete secrecy).

 

Why would they bother? Seanchan is in chaos, civil war has torn it appart and its major cities are in the hands of rioters. For the purposes of this war attacking Seanchan makes absolutely no sense. Semirhage took them out of the game.

 

Trollocs would not be able to be in the Lesser Blight (the one in Seanchan) as it would take an immense time to transport them via the Ways because Mashadar is attracted to large groups of people. That's the reason why there were only about 10,000 Trollocs in the Two Rivers. The Shadow could only move 20 or 30 in a group at a time as Verin noted. They couldn't transfer them through Portal Stones a Rand could barely transfer the hundreds of Aiel to Rhuidien even with the fat man angreal. Also, if Graendal was in Seanchan there would be signs of civilization such as buildings since the Twoers of Midnight are in the sixth largest Seanchan city.

 

That no longer applies. For whatever reason Machin Shin is not doing its job (likely as a result of the changes that began to occur in it because of its interaction with Fain continued off screen).

 

In KoD we see 100,000 Trollocs sent through the Waygate. They were sent all at the same time, not staggered, and either none, or so few as to make no difference, got attacked.

 

 

However, that being said, the point is moot anyway--there are no waygates in Seanchan. If there were Ogier like Loial would know of Seanchan and its history (at least up until the ways went dark 1000 years ago).

 

[richnewton82]

.

[nnokwoodeye]

Just because shadowspawn can't go through OP gateways doesn't mean that they can't be transported with the TP.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Just because shadowspawn can't go through OP gateways doesn't mean that they can't be transported with the TP.

 

Except that it would have been extremely advantageous for the Shadow on any number of occasions throught the series, yet, so far we've seen nothing to suggest something like that has been or can be done.

[Raistlin]

Could it be refering to the tower we see the forsaken meet in fron the prologue. Could there be several of these towers through out the blight. Or a conection with it to the black tower.

[jemron]

My theory is pretty dead, I know.  But I'm having fun with it.

 

Crazy theory:  Moridin moved the Towers of Midnight from Seanchan to the Great Blight in Randland.

[fikkie77]

My theory is pretty dead, I know.  But I'm having fun with it.

 

Crazy theory:  Moridin moved the Towers of Midnight from Seanchan to the Great Blight in Randland.

Funny, but ehm... how?

[nnokwoodeye]

Maybe the Seanchan are going to conquer the WT and rename it the Towers of Midnight for traditional reasons.

[DemandredFO]

The Towers of Midnight sound like Credic Shaw to me, maybe those shadowspawn kept away by soldiers are Coloss ;D.  To get serious there is also a reference the "the Armies of Night" in a seanchan prophecy or something.

[Diederichos]

The Armies of Night are what Luthair's crew called the Seanchan forces they fought because of the Aes Sedai element but also because of the exotics they were faced with. Ironic a bit given their own widespread use of exotics.

 

Edit: Also here's a question, why does the Seanchan view on the Karaethon Cycle have to be false? I'm not saying whether or not it's the true version or something of the sort. But let's say this, Tuon is the Crystal Throne(I always held the view that she was in Randland as a representative of the Throne and therefore could be considered the Crystal Throne(not the literal object but the majesty aspect)), because she was the DotNM before, and because she's now the legitimate Empress even if she might not have been crowned yet. What if her condition for acceding to a truce, because she's a fervent believe of the Seanchan Karaethon prophecy, is for Rand to bow before her(either literally or symbolically). Wouldn't that make them sorta true? And if that's the case, what other differences are there between the two, I know there are mention of at least a few, but don't think we ever heard a specific one aside from that.

[sheikh chilli]

something big will happen at the black tower if it already hasn't in book 12.

[chris hawkwing]

maybe the white and black tower will end the "schism" and the collective title will be towers of midnight. midnight being the time between light and dark or more appropriately white and black.