Setalle Anan - Martine Janata of the Brown Ajah

[yellie1107]

I am not sure if this topic has been covered on here, and if it has I appologize.

 

We meet Setalle Anan in the Crown of Swords and understand that she is formerly Martine Janata of the Brown Ajah. We also learn that she burnt herself out or was severed.

 

First question... Is she burnt out or severed? If stilled then she can be Healed and restored to being Aes Sedai.

 

Second question... If she is burnt out can she be Healed?

 

Third question... I understand that if someone is burnt out they can't even feel Saidar. Yet, in the Winter's Heart she claims she can be a sul'dam, which to me means she can feel Saidar.

 

Fourth question... If she can feel Saidar, does it mean she can be Healed?

 

It might be ignorance on my part. I might have missed something in the book. But I can't put two and two together. Please help.

[el Nynaeve]

Burnt out while studying a ter'angreal. Severed or burnt out, she can be Healed once someone discovers who she was and if she chooses to be Healed.

[yellie1107]

I was under the impression that if you are stilled, you can still feel saidar. You can also be Healed.

 

On the other had, if you have been burnt out, you can no longer feel saidar. You can not longer be Healed.

 

Let me know if my logic is flawed.

[Alia]

Actually she cannot be a suldam- I think they tried to use her to get Joline away from the Seachen and it didnt work

[WWWwombat]

Well there is no evidence in the books that I know of to say that being burnt out can or can't be healed.  I'm of the opinion that it probably can be as it falls under "anything short of death," but who knows?

 

And yes, Joline screamed when Setalle wore the a'dam so she presumably cannot be a sul'dam.

[mb]

We meet Setalle Anan in the Crown of Swords and understand that she is formerly Martine Janata of the Brown Ajah.

We are not told what Ajah she was.  My first guess would be Gray because she frequently talks about the law.  My second guess would be Green because she married (Green was the primary Ajah that would marry before the main series).  Third guess would be Brown because of her studying.

 

Yet, in the Winter's Heart she claims she can be a sul'dam, which to me means she can feel Saidar.

Actually, she did not know if she could be suldam or not; and only hoped that she could be.

 

[dholm]

I am of the opinion that being burned out cannot be Healed, at least not in the same manner as stilling can.

[Luckers]

Well there is no evidence in the books that I know of to say that being burnt out can or can't be healed.  I'm of the opinion that it probably can be as it falls under "anything short of death," but who knows?

 

There is actually evidence to suggest that burning out can indeed be healed. Three pieces. Firstly, in LoC Rand crushes Sashelle, Ronaille and Irgaine in fists of spirit--it is later termed in the book that he 'stilled' them because he did it to them, however, functionally, what occured was that he overstressed their abilities, thus expunging them--which is essentially being burned out. Only instead of a ter'angreal, those three had a living man. Certainly it is not the knife-sharp slicing described by Nynaeve as how you 'still' someone. Later, Flinn heals them.

 

Secondly, Egwene states that it is now hard to keep the novices from over-extending themselves since they no longer had to fear being burnt out. Now this could be guesswork on her part, but the Aes Sedai are aware of the differences between being stilled and being burnt out, and the inability of burn outs to even sense saidar anymore should have made them pause and question. Egwene seems utterly certain.

 

Thirdly, Cyndane--but if you want to find out the basis of how she may stand as evidence that burning out can be healed look it up here http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,19889.msg524105.html#msg524105

 

So yes, its not a hundred percent yet (though personally I do think Ronaille and the others DO make it certain, but whatever. I can see how people might argue around that) but there's definately some evidence there.

[dholm]

Luckers, your first point does not exist. Rand stills them. When it is done to you, you are stilled. When it is done through drawing too much of the One Power (which can happen if you fiddle around with a ter'angreal), it's burning out.

 

Egwene guesses. Period.

 

Cyndane is even less proof than the first.

[Mashiara Sedai]

I agree that being burned out should be able to be Healed.  It just doesn't seem possible that the way you are cut off from the Source would make a difference whether it could be Healed or not.  Maybe it's Healed differently, though.

 

Here's an interesting thought. When Setalle Anan put the a'dam on, why did it cause Joline pain?

 

We've seen Siuan and Leane both put on the a'dam when Moghedien was wearing the collar and it never hurt anyone in that situation.  Siuan and Leane are even able to feel Moggie's feelings through the a'dam.  I guess it's never stated if Setalle was able to feel Joline, but I doubt it, or Joline would have been able to feel her too, and I didn't get that impression.

[Luckers]

Luckers, your first point does not exist. Rand stills them. When it is done to you, you are stilled. When it is done through drawing too much of the One Power (which can happen if you fiddle around with a ter'angreal), it's burning out.

 

Egwene guesses. Period.

 

Cyndane is even less proof than the first.

 

The issue with Ronaille and the others is in the nature of the damage done. What occured to them was not stilling. Silling is a razor sharp cutting of the ability. Technically, Rand did not still them. He did not weave with the intention of cutting them off from the source, and the weave he DID make was not designed to do so. What he did to them was crush weaves they were holding. It was the stress of that which extinguished their ability, not Rand.

 

Rand initiated the action which resulted in them being severed from the True Source, so others say that he stilled them, because the word 'stilled' is what is applied when its done to you by someone else. However Rand did not still them. He crushed a weave, and the stress of that burnt them out.

 

Which is precisely what occurs with a ter'angreal. The ter'angreal tries to use the power in a way that over-stresses the channelers ability. Same thing.

 

And Cyndane's a damn bit of evidence. But if you want to discuss that I'm cool--just lets do it in the other thread.

 

As for Egwene, you don't know she guessed. I acknowledged that possibility myself, but there is no 'period' about it. She and the Aes Sedai should have considered the issue before reaching such a conclusion. They may not have, but then again they may have.

 

I don't get it, why are you being so high handed dholm? Did I offend you or something?

 

I agree that being burned out should be able to be Healed.  It just doesn't seem possible that the way you are cut off from the Source would make a difference whether it could be Healed or not.  Maybe it's Healed differently, though.

 

Here's an interesting thought. When Setalle Anan put the a'dam on, why did it cause Joline pain?

 

We've seen Siuan and Leane both put on the a'dam when Moghedien was wearing the collar and it never hurt anyone in that situation.  Siuan and Leane are even able to feel Moggie's feelings through the a'dam.  I guess it's never stated if Setalle was able to feel Joline, but I doubt it, or Joline would have been able to feel her too, and I didn't get that impression.

 

Joline's pain was caused by the a'dam's 'no moving the bracelet' condition. Note that it hits her on her second step, just like with Egwene. Moghedian did not experience this because a) she didn't try to move and b) Elayne had changed her version of the a'dam to allow movement when the bracelet isn't being worn.

 

Setalle may have felt the same emotions, but given she was trying to hide who she used to be and Joline's agony clearly displayed that she could not act as sul'dam she had no reason to speak of it.

 

That being said given burn outs can't sense the source, but stilleds can, she may not have felt anything.

[dholm]

Luckers, your first point does not exist. Rand stills them. When it is done to you, you are stilled. When it is done through drawing too much of the One Power (which can happen if you fiddle around with a ter'angreal), it's burning out.

 

Egwene guesses. Period.

 

Cyndane is even less proof than the first.

 

The issue with Ronaille and the others is in the nature of the damage done. What occured to them was not stilling. Silling is a razor sharp cutting of the ability. Technically, Rand did not still them. He did not weave with the intention of cutting them off from the source, and the weave he DID make was not designed to do so. What he did to them was crush weaves they were holding. It was the stress of that which extinguished their ability, not Rand.

 

Rand initiated the action which resulted in them being severed from the True Source, so others say that he stilled them, because the word 'stilled' is what is applied when its done to you by someone else. However Rand did not still them. He crushed a weave, and the stress of that burnt them out.

No, he didn't. He broke through the shield first. The weave was already broken when he severed them from the Source.

 

The "soft points" he can feel when he tries to break through the shield are Aes Sedai maintaining the shield. When they tie it off -- when they do not maintain it any longer -- it becomes a hard knot that he can burst. He seizes the soft points and "crushed them in fists of spirit". If they were still maintaining the weave, he couldn't possibly do that, seeing as he wouldn't have access to saidin.

 

As for the difference in what Rand did and what Nynaeve tried to do, that can be explained easily. Rand channels saidin, not saidar. A weave woven with saidar is different from one woven with saidin. It's also entirely possible that there is more than one way of approaching a weave. In fact, we know that's possible.

 

Which is precisely what occurs with a ter'angreal. The ter'angreal tries to use the power in a way that over-stresses the channelers ability. Same thing.

No, not at all. A ter'angreal does not burn someone out by amplifying a weave beyond its capabilities (which is what you're suggesting). There need not be a weave to activate a ter'angreal.

 

And Cyndane's a damn bit of evidence. But if you want to discuss that I'm cool--just lets do it in the other thread.

 

As for Egwene, you don't know she guessed. I acknowledged that possibility myself, but there is no 'period' about it. She and the Aes Sedai should have considered the issue before reaching such a conclusion. They may not have, but then again they may have.

Yes, period. I am not even in doubt about this, because Egwene cannot possibly know. No one has burned out from overchanneling and been restored to any semblance of ability yet.

 

I don't get it, why are you being so high handed dholm? Did I offend you or something?

I apologize if I seem harsh, but I find my conclusions on this topic to be self-evident, and it baffles me that other people cannot see it.

[BKVMC]

I assume being burned out can  be healed  for these reasons 1 ) they still have a soul and 2) they still have the  channeling gene.

[Luckers]

No, he didn't. He broke through the shield first. The weave was already broken when he severed them from the Source.

 

The "soft points" he can feel when he tries to break through the shield are Aes Sedai maintaining the shield. When they tie it off -- when they do not maintain it any longer -- it becomes a hard knot that he can burst. He seizes the soft points and "crushed them in fists of spirit". If they were still maintaining the weave, he couldn't possibly do that, seeing as he wouldn't have access to saidin.

 

Ok, my problem with that is that the fact that the knots go hard when Aes Sedai left show that these knots are not them, but the place where they are holding the shield. The knot remains present, merely in a different state. They are like the ropes--held loosely but living hands (minds) or tied tight to a wall. With the tied ones Rand merely unties them, then once enough ropes are untighed he snaps the rest, reaches out and grabs torn remains and rips them free of the minds that hold them.

 

The strain of which burns out those minds.

 

As such I would suggest the crushing of the soft points is not the crushing of them, but the crushing of where they are holding onto the weave, or what was left of it--for remember though he burst it the weave did not imediately disipate. Usually a broken weave snaps back but this one retained some cohesion, enough for Rand to still feel along the edges of it and find the minds and abilities of those that held it--which he would not have been able to do if the weave were completely gone, as you state. My guess would be because it was maintained by a circle.

 

Now, whilst I still think that is the case, for the sake of the argument lets say it's precisely as you suggest, and move forward.

 

As for the difference in what Rand did and what Nynaeve tried to do, that can be explained easily. Rand channels saidin, not saidar. A weave woven with saidar is different from one woven with saidin. It's also entirely possible that there is more than one way of approaching a weave. In fact, we know that's possible

 

The male shield is woven in the same manner as the female, and the shield is the basis weave of stilling someone. But even were that the case it's irrelevant, since whether or not Rand 'stilled' them, he did not do it with the knife-like weave, he expunged their ability, over-stressed it, and crushed it.

 

Do you agree with that? That he crushed their ability, not cut it?

 

He may have done it to them, and thus linguistically be said to have stilled them, but functionally, he burnt them out. Unless you disagree with the fact that he crushed their ability?

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 08:31:30 PM

Which is precisely what occurs with a ter'angreal. The ter'angreal tries to use the power in a way that over-stresses the channelers ability. Same thing.

 

No, not at all. A ter'angreal does not burn someone out by amplifying a weave beyond its capabilities (which is what you're suggesting). There need not be a weave to activate a ter'angreal.

 

Not nessasarily amplifying, though that is possible--but I'd say a more general way of saying it would be 'using in a manner that over-strains the channelers ability'. Consider Egwene's description from her encounter with the broken access ter'angreal.

 

As her hand grasped it, the Power surged within her, into the half-figure then back into her, into the figure and back, in and back. The crystal sphere flickered in fitful, lurid flashes, and needles stabbed her brain with each flash. With a sob of agony, she loosed her hold and clasped both hands to her head.

 

[tSR-11-What Lies Hidden]

 

As for there not needing to be a weave to activate a ter'angreal--who cares? For a ter'angreal to burn a woman out it must drawn on her ability in some way (unless it's designed to still people, I suppose. Though why anyone would create such a ter'angreal I don't know). Hense over-stressing it, and burning her out.

 

It's the functionality of the burning out, not how the woman came to be in a position to be over-stressed by the ter'angreal that's important.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 08:31:30 PM

And Cyndane's a damn bit of evidence. But if you want to discuss that I'm cool--just lets do it in the other thread.

 

As for Egwene, you don't know she guessed. I acknowledged that possibility myself, but there is no 'period' about it. She and the Aes Sedai should have considered the issue before reaching such a conclusion. They may not have, but then again they may have.

 

 

Yes, period. I am not even in doubt about this, because Egwene cannot possibly know. No one has burned out from overchanneling and been restored to any semblance of ability yet.

 

Oh? Egwene states that its hard to stop the novices pushing themselves too far, so what if one has? Nothing in what she said suggest it hasn't occured. And Egwene certainly seems confident of her position. Who's to say it hasn't happened a dozen times so far?

 

I apologize if I seem harsh, but I find my conclusions on this topic to be self-evident, and it baffles me that other people cannot see it.

 

That, at least, is self-evident.

[el Nynaeve]

We meet Setalle Anan in the Crown of Swords and understand that she is formerly Martine Janata of the Brown Ajah.

We are not told what Ajah she was.  My first guess would be Gray because she frequently talks about the law.  My second guess would be Green because she married (Green was the primary Ajah that would marry before the main series).  Third guess would be Brown because of her studying.

 

She is confirmed Brown Ajah.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/importance-of-setalle-anan.html#stilled

[dholm]

No, he didn't. He broke through the shield first. The weave was already broken when he severed them from the Source.

 

The "soft points" he can feel when he tries to break through the shield are Aes Sedai maintaining the shield. When they tie it off -- when they do not maintain it any longer -- it becomes a hard knot that he can burst. He seizes the soft points and "crushed them in fists of spirit". If they were still maintaining the weave, he couldn't possibly do that, seeing as he wouldn't have access to saidin.

 

Ok, my problem with that is that the fact that the knots go hard when Aes Sedai left show that these knots are not them, but the place where they are holding the shield. The knot remains present, merely in a different state. They are like the ropes--held loosely but living hands (minds) or tied tight to a wall. With the tied ones Rand merely unties them, then once enough ropes are untighed he snaps the rest, reaches out and grabs torn remains and rips them free of the minds that hold them.

 

The strain of which burns out those minds.

The knots are not them, of course. Your rope analogy works fine. The soft points are the Aes Sedai -- or rather, their ability to channel.

 

As such I would suggest the crushing of the soft points is not the crushing of them, but the crushing of where they are holding onto the weave, or what was left of it--for remember though he burst it the weave did not imediately disipate. Usually a broken weave snaps back but this one retained some cohesion, enough for Rand to still feel along the edges of it and find the minds and abilities of those that held it--which he would not have been able to do if the weave were completely gone, as you state. My guess would be because it was maintained by a circle.

He doesn't "feel along the edges of it" after he bursts the shield. He simply reaches out and grasps their channeling ability and crushes it.

 

Now, whilst I still think that is the case, for the sake of the argument lets say it's precisely as you suggest, and move forward.

 

As for the difference in what Rand did and what Nynaeve tried to do, that can be explained easily. Rand channels saidin, not saidar. A weave woven with saidar is different from one woven with saidin. It's also entirely possible that there is more than one way of approaching a weave. In fact, we know that's possible

 

The male shield is woven in the same manner as the female, and the shield is the basis weave of stilling someone. But even were that the case it's irrelevant, since whether or not Rand 'stilled' them, he did not do it with the knife-like weave, he expunged their ability, over-stressed it, and crushed it.

 

Do you agree with that? That he crushed their ability, not cut it?

I agree that he crushed them because that's precisely what it says in the books. That does not equate to him expunging their ability, however.

 

Where's your evidence that the male shield is woven in the same manner as the female? For that matter, even if it is, that doesn't automatically mean the nature of severing them is the same. And again, even if it is, Rand could simply have used a different weave than normal to achieve the same result.

 

He may have done it to them, and thus linguistically be said to have stilled them, but functionally, he burnt them out. Unless you disagree with the fact that he crushed their ability?

Logical fallacy. The fact that he crushed their ability does not mean he caused them to burn out.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 08:31:30 PM

Which is precisely what occurs with a ter'angreal. The ter'angreal tries to use the power in a way that over-stresses the channelers ability. Same thing.

 

No, not at all. A ter'angreal does not burn someone out by amplifying a weave beyond its capabilities (which is what you're suggesting). There need not be a weave to activate a ter'angreal.

 

Not nessasarily amplifying, though that is possible--but I'd say a more general way of saying it would be 'using in a manner that over-strains the channelers ability'. Consider Egwene's description from her encounter with the broken access ter'angreal.

 

As her hand grasped it, the Power surged within her, into the half-figure then back into her, into the figure and back, in and back. The crystal sphere flickered in fitful, lurid flashes, and needles stabbed her brain with each flash. With a sob of agony, she loosed her hold and clasped both hands to her head.

 

[tSR-11-What Lies Hidden]

 

As for there not needing to be a weave to activate a ter'angreal--who cares? For a ter'angreal to burn a woman out it must drawn on her ability in some way (unless it's designed to still people, I suppose. Though why anyone would create such a ter'angreal I don't know). Hense over-stressing it, and burning her out.

 

It's the functionality of the burning out, not how the woman came to be in a position to be over-stressed by the ter'angreal that's important.

You were the one who said it worked like a ter'angreal, not I.

 

The broken access ter'angreal is just that: Broken. We can extrapolate nothing from it except that it's broken.

 

Tell me, precisely what gives you the idea that if a weave is "overstressed", it can burn out a channeler? It doesn't happen anywhere in the books. Burning out (where it is clearly burning out) always happen either because the person drew too much of the One Power, or because they meddled with ter'angreal.

 

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 08:31:30 PM

And Cyndane's a damn bit of evidence. But if you want to discuss that I'm cool--just lets do it in the other thread.

 

As for Egwene, you don't know she guessed. I acknowledged that possibility myself, but there is no 'period' about it. She and the Aes Sedai should have considered the issue before reaching such a conclusion. They may not have, but then again they may have.

 

 

Yes, period. I am not even in doubt about this, because Egwene cannot possibly know. No one has burned out from overchanneling and been restored to any semblance of ability yet.

 

Oh? Egwene states that its hard to stop the novices pushing themselves too far, so what if one has? Nothing in what she said suggest it hasn't occured. And Egwene certainly seems confident of her position. Who's to say it hasn't happened a dozen times so far?

You can't just assume it has occurred when we have heard nothing about it. There's zero evidence it has happened, therefore the logical conclusion is that it hasn't.

Of course Egwene is confident; she doesn't know there's a functional difference between burning out and stilling. Most Aes Sedai wouldn't -- and it's also obvious why. They hate and fear any woman who is stilled or burned out; they send them as far away as they can as soon as possible.

 

There's at least one question they should ask of themselves:

Stilled women can still sense saidar. Can those who are burned out?

 

We haven't seen them do so, so we can only conclude they haven't.

 

I apologize if I seem harsh, but I find my conclusions on this topic to be self-evident, and it baffles me that other people cannot see it.

 

That, at least, is self-evident.

Heh.

[mb]

We meet Setalle Anan in the Crown of Swords and understand that she is formerly Martine Janata of the Brown Ajah.

We are not told what Ajah she was.  My first guess would be Gray because she frequently talks about the law.  My second guess would be Green because she married (Green was the primary Ajah that would marry before the main series).  Third guess would be Brown because of her studying.

She is confirmed Brown Ajah.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/importance-of-setalle-anan.html#stilled

Where/How did they get her Ajah?

 

[Luckers]

Martine is a confirmed brown, but Satelle is not yet confirmed as Martine, though its very very likely, as the thirteenth depository lays out so admirably.

 

Oh, and dholm, I'm not ignoring your post, im just being a naughty boy and posting at work so I don't have time right now. I'll reply properly later on.

[Blackhoof]

where does it say that burnt out women cannot sense the source? In my opinion its like what egwene thought in TGH, "Its like having two different words for falling down the stairs, if someone pushes you, or you fall by accident." But i could be wrong.

[dholm]

They cannot -- it's mentioned when Nyneave is taking her test for the Accepted. The Aes Sedai who went into the testing ter'angreal fully protected came out "with her ability burned to nothing, unable to channel, unable even to sense the True Source." (The Great Hunt, Chapter 23.)

 

There's at the very least a mechanical difference between being burned out and being stilled. Stilled women can sense the Source.

 

stilling:

The act, performed by Aes Sedai, of shutting off a woman who can channel from the One Power. A woman who has been stilled can sense the True Source, but she cannot touch it.

 

It's the same for men, by the way.

 

gentling:

The act, performed by Aes Sedai, of shutting off a male who can channel from the One Power. This is necessary because any man who learns to channel will go insane from the taint on saidin and will almost certainly do horrible things with the Power in his madness. A man who has been gentled can still sense the True Source, but he cannot touch it. Whatever madness has come before gentling is arrested by the act of gentling, but not cured by it, and if it is done soon enough death can be averted. See also One Power, the; stilling.

[Blackhoof]

They cannot -- it's mentioned when Nyneave is taking her test for the Accepted. The Aes Sedai who went into the testing ter'angreal fully protected came out "with her ability burned to nothing, unable to channel, unable to even sense the True Source." (The Great Hunt, Chapter 23.)

 

There's at the very least a mechanical difference between being burned out and being stilled. Stilled women can sense the Source.

 

Personally I think sheriam meant the strangeness and inconsistency of the ring ter'angreal, but i could be wrong.

[dholm]

There's no "inconsistency" with the ter'angreal. It always works in the same manner.

[Blackhoof]

when nynaeve channeled, she was fine, when this other girl sheriam was refering to did, she was burnt out, there are other little differences, too. (sometimes people suffer horrendous wounds, but come out fine, others come out with the same wounds, etc, etc.) You might not think of these as inconsistencies, but i do.

[Luckers]

I'm quite drunk, so I'm in no way in a position to respond yet (though it's coming *grins a silly grin*)

 

However, there is something clear in your comments.

 

stilling:

The act, performed by Aes Sedai, of shutting off a woman who can channel from the One Power. A woman who has been stilled can sense the True Source, but she cannot touch it.

 

The method performed by Aes Sedai is the knife-like weave. The method performed by Rand, which you suggest as the male-method is completely different.

 

Therefore the claim of 'stilling' is different to burning out is really that the female method of 'stilling' is different to burning out.

 

That's as much fuzzy logic as my incredibly drunk mind can make. I'll probably regret it tomorrow and post something more reasonable.

 

Also, the snosberries taste like snosberries.

[Kaznen]

I'm quite drunk, so I'm in no way in a position to respond yet (though it's coming *grins a silly grin*)

 

However, there is something clear in your comments.

 

stilling:

The act, performed by Aes Sedai, of shutting off a woman who can channel from the One Power. A woman who has been stilled can sense the True Source, but she cannot touch it.

 

The method performed by Aes Sedai is the knife-like weave. The method performed by Rand, which you suggest as the male-method is completely different.

 

Therefore the claim of 'stilling' is different to burning out is really that the female method of 'stilling' is different to burning out.

 

That's as much fuzzy logic as my incredibly drunk mind can make. I'll probably regret it tomorrow and post something more reasonable.

 

Also, the snosberries taste like snosberries.

There have been references to how women channlers' weaves are fine detailed and the men's are rougher and less refined.  Maybe women sever the connections with a cutting weave and men bash at it until it shatters.