Just how strong is the dark one?

[Rhalurn]

I know he is spoiling the food and has been affecting the weather, along with ressurecting chosen and forever blowing bubbles of evil. Yet i can't help wonder what limit he has, seeing as Moraine used to say how his touch on the world was weak with the seals intact etc.

 

He's made his avatar, shadar huran (sp) and he is impressively strong. Now i know this would make an extremely boring book but, couldn't he just have forsaken reborn into bodies which have insanely high limits for their saidin/saidar? I know they already have this, but i mean - the wheel spun out Rand, immensley strong (as strong as ishy) to give them a fighting chance. The Dark One had 13 at his disposal, if he could do so again (now) could he of made them reborn with twice the power of rand each?

 

Might not make sense to you guys, but im here thinking 'he seems pretty strong and has ressurected ishy to full strength, but could he of made him stronger?'

 

Maybe the souls have something to do with the limit for the power. Also he must feel pretty silly not giving cyndane her full strength, seeing as she failed to beat allai (sp) when the cleansing of saidin happened.

[Solarian]

I'm pretty sure the Dark One has to find bodies for the Forsaken to be reborn into - he doesn't just create them. And I don't think the body has anything to do with the channeling limit of its user, but rather it's their "soul" or whatever life force there is in WOT.

 

As for Cyndane, most people suspect her drop in power is due to what happened on the other side of the ter'angreal doorway.

[Germs]

Solarian is right. Strength in the One Power has nothing to do with the body; it's linked to the soul.

[Alghar Khan]

We have no evidence that says that strength can be influenced by genes. On the other hand, we don't know how to be "finding a suitable body". What is that, anyway? We haven't been told.

 

My guess is that Lanfear was burnt out, recycled, and then healed by some woman. I would also guess that there are no minor strength influencing genes.

[Trebor Nadroj]

The Dark One, as the guide says, is the antithesis of the Creator.

He is most certainly as powerful as the Creator.

If there would be no Dark One there would be no force balancing that of the Creator. And the universe of The Wheel of Time is all about balance.

 

The meaning behind the YinYang symbol is a hint to that fact.

[Balefire to da face!]

In rereading tEotW I came across an interesting quote by Moiraine.

 

To make a point of how strong the Dark One is, she says something along the lines of "As powerful as they are, none of the Forsaken have a tenth of the power of the Dark One".

 

I found it interesting that she would put it that way. Not a hundreth, or a thousandth. Just a tenth. Probably just a casual comment that means nothing, but it made me think that the DO might not be as strong as he is made out to be. Perhaps even within striking distance of Rand sporting a Chodan Kal(sp?)....

[OptimusPrime]

We have no evidence that says that strength can be influenced by genes. On the other hand, we don't know how to be "finding a suitable body". What is that, anyway? We haven't been told.

 

 

I wonder about this too. Maybe people who can learn to channel have the channeler gene, and those with the spark are a channeler soul reborn. Maybe you need a body with the channeler gene, otherwise you'll be weaker

[Rhalurn]

Solarian is right. Strength in the One Power has nothing to do with the body; it's linked to the soul.

 

'Maybe the souls have something to do with the limit for the power'

 

Nice to know, as for the being the opposite to the creator so equal his strength - i thought as much. I must of gone around the point of my question with my blathering.

 

Has he the ability to just made dreadlords with twice rands power, or is it - as people and myself thought, limited to peoples soul (potential, cant be forced).

 

I only wonder about this because Cyndane was brought back significantly weaker, perhaps to punish her. If so, could he do the opposite? Say bring back aragnor (ashaman renegade?) with twice his previous strength?

 

Also just a side comment - anyone else find ishy really cool? In the age of legends, instead of going off into hiding and becoming a forsaken, he tells people publically that he will go follow the shadow. Balls of steel.

[mb]

He's made his avatar, shadar huran

Actually, Shaidar Haran is not the Dark One's avatar.  Robert Jordan told so.  I do not remember where.

 

I know they already have this

Actually, they were resurrected; not reborn.

 

About the Power strengths, I am not sure if severing/burned-out still applies to after death & resurrection.  Aginor might have been burned out and he seemed to return with full strength.

 

About genetics, there is some support in the books of channeling being genetic.  Elayne & Morgase; Asmodean & his mother (he severed her); Talaan & her relatives; maybe Moiraine & Elayne.

Guide tells that channeling is a recessive gene. (Chapter titled 'Age of Legends')

 

[Blackhoof]

I only wonder about this because Cyndane was brought back significantly weaker, perhaps to punish her. If so, could he do the opposite? Say bring back aragnor (ashaman renegade?) with twice his previous strength?

 

Actually, Cyndane is lanfear, and it is believed that she is weaker because of the ter'angreal doorway or something. So the DO cannot increase your channeling.

 

Ps: I think that bodies are found, like they capture slaves and the DO shoves a non-balefired forsaken into it.

 

Pps: Since Sammael wasn't balefired, and was mashadared, could the DO resurrect him?

[Mr Ares]

Might not make sense to you guys, but im here thinking 'he seems pretty strong and has ressurected ishy to full strength, but could he of made him stronger?'

Presumably not, as He has shown no ability to affect the strength of His Chosen.

 

Also he must feel pretty silly not giving cyndane her full strength

I don't see why He would. He hasn't done anything to her strength, after all.

 

it made me think that the DO might not be as strong as he is made out to be.

Or perhaps she was making the Chosen out to be stronger than they really were.

 

Cyndane was brought back significantly weaker, perhaps to punish her.

Almost certainly not, as it's a counter-productive punishment.

 

Actually, Shaidar Haran is not the Dark One's avatar. Robert Jordan told so.

Actually, Robert Jordan told that he does not consider SH to be Shai'tan's avatar due to how he defines the term. We need not share his definition.

 

Pps: Since Sammael wasn't balefired, and was mashadared, could the DO resurrect him?

Probably not.

[Blackhoof]

Pps: Since Sammael wasn't balefired, and was mashadared, could the DO resurrect him?

Probably not.

 

thought not. that would piss me off, killing someone and then having them come back.

[OptimusPrime]

Doesnt Mashadar eat souls, or is that Machin Sin? Either way I always assumed that Mashadar killing Sammael stopped him from being brought back.

 

The Dark One can bench press 800lb one handed.

[Alghar Khan]

Doesnt Mashadar eat souls, or is that Machin Sin? Either way I always assumed that Mashadar killing Sammael stopped him from being brought back.

Yeah, Sammael is toast. RJ said so.

 

The Dark One can bench press 800lb one handed.

While balancing it on his index finger.

[Mr Ares]

Doesnt Mashadar eat souls, or is that Machin Sin?

Mashadar is never stated to eat souls. On the other hand, it is never stated to not eat souls, and it did only arise once everyone was dead, so might perhaps be formed of their souls. And, of course, it is an evil that hates the Shadow. If anything could guarantee you not being beyond Shai'tan's reach, Mashadar is most likely.

[OptimusPrime]

Doesnt Mashadar eat souls, or is that Machin Sin? Either way I always assumed that Mashadar killing Sammael stopped him from being brought back.

Yeah, Sammael is toast. RJ said so.

 

 

Yes I know that but I was looking at why

[Aiemond]

How does eating souls work in the WoT universe? Supposedly all souls are reborn, but if we have these souls being eaten, how could the wheel not run out of them? I guess this would also tread into the "where do non-heroes go when they die" question.

 

I think it sounds like when they are "eaten" they are gone forever, for all turnings, but this just not seem to jive with the whole idea of how the wheel works. Otherwise we would be running out of Sammaels :P

[Blackhoof]

Mmmmm.... i think that only major heroes are reborn specifically, like LTT and Birgitte and Hawking, but maybe im thinking of the Horn..... Perhaps the wheel generates souls to replace balefired/eaten ones?

[Mr Ares]

How does eating souls work in the WoT universe? Supposedly all souls are reborn, but if we have these souls being eaten, how could the wheel not run out of them? I guess this would also tread into the "where do non-heroes go when they die" question.

There's an afterlife, where non-Heroes go. Souls that are consumed by entities such as Mashadar or Machin Shin might end up there eventually, when those entities are destroyed.

[Thor]

how's about just say 'we don't know' instead of wildly speculating?

 

else ask the author(s).

[pxnsolid]

Because wild speculation is fun? Aside from the fact that speculation has brought about many innovations and truths, its the basis of experimentation and discovery.

[Blackhoof]

pxnsolid is right; wild speculation if fun! I bet that Moiraine is actually Black Ajah, Rand is secretly a woman, and the Dark One is actually the Creator when he gets angry.  ;)