Who Was Behind The Attack on Algarin's Manor

[Luckers]

Optimus Prime asked about this theory in the tGS forum, so I figured I'd put it out there. The best way I can see to go about this is to do it sequentially. From order, to enactment, to aftermath.

 

The Order

 

The first issue here is that the order was not obeyed because the man who ordered it looked like Sammael, it was obeyed because the one who gave the order had the Chosen Mark.

 

"Sammael, or someone disguised as him, gave orders to the Myrdraal, and they obeyed so it was one of the Chosen."

 

[KoD--3--At the Gardens

 

For clarity, the Chosen Mark is an sort of imprint the Dark One puts on the souls of his high chosen. RJ describes it thus.

 

Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

 

[Tor QotW]

 

Moridin's point is clear--despite the fact that he looked like Sammael, the fact that he was obeyed means he was one of the Chosen (and thus had the mark). Had he not had the mark, even looking like Sammael would not have helped.

 

But What of Fain?

 

Some raise the fact that Fain has forced Myrdraal to obey him before, but he uses the same methods anyone may employ in forcing people to do their bidding--torture. This person did not torture hundreds of Myrdraal into obeying them. He commanded, they obeyed. As Moridin states that means Chosen.

 

When Was The Attack Launched

 

This issue has its own section because of the Machin Shin problem--specifically how could 100,000 Trollocs move through the Ways unscathed?

 

Some suggest that the movement was staggered. Sent bit by bit and built up before initiating the attack, however this is quite impossible. Rand has been at the manor in Tear for 28 days, even sending the groups through piecemeal for this person to have gathered a hundred thousand in twenty-eight days they would need to seen at least 7100 through at a time, which given Machin Shin's nature is as impossible as the hundred thousand. Furthermore we know pretty much every Trolloc that was sent made it to the manor in tear, or rather every Myrdraal which amounts to the same thing in a group scenario. Even if one or two groups made it through, this wouldn't be possible if Machin Shin were doing its job properly.

 

The answer to the Machin Shin issue is in its changing nature--ever since it encountered Fain in tEotW we have seen its behaviour change--waiting at Waygates, trying to force its way out and at times appearing as if it might succeed. These changes occurred within a six month period, and it has been a further year and half since then for it to continue to change.

 

Either way, whatever is going on with Machin Shin it did not attack the Trollocs, and no plan was put in place by the person who ordered this attack for sending through the Trollocs piecemeal. They were sent as one, and as such Moridin's comments indicate a certain degree of immediacy--he learned of it, and summoned the meeting in TAR straight away to issue his commands that the missing Trollocs be watched for. Likely within the last three or four days.

 

The Nature of the Attack

 

Ok, so send a hundred thousand Trollocs to kill Rand. Seems a simple enough plan, no? And indeed, as Logain states it was a close run thing. Without his Asha'men reinforcements they might have lost. Only pause for a moment a consider that--Rand had the male Choedan Kal and Callandor, and Trollocs attack in a neat little group that would have been right for the plucking. By all rights it should never have come to be as close as it was, only Rand's stupidity allowed for that.

 

More important for this thread, the Forsaken knew this. They had just walked away from getting spanked around by Rand and his followers, and they lived through the war known as THE war of the power. They knew what the power could do against an army. Effectively they had no reason to expect Rand to be an idiot, and from their perspective launching such an attack serves no purpose but to bring Rand's attention back onto the Shadow, which seems counter-productive after all their hard work on spreading dissension and causing drama amongst the light, whilst keeping the Blight as quiet as a lamb. It certainly did with Lan's.

 

This leads to three options.

 

1. The attack was incidental.

2. They really did wish to draw Rand's attention to the North.

3. It wasn't the Forsaken.

 

The Attack Was Incidental

 

This suggestion is that the attack itself wasn't the point--if it killed Rand, hey great, but if not who cares. The issue here is what was the real intention? If it was simply to draw suspicion on one of their fellow Chosen why wear the Sammael mask? That straight up screams disguise, and given the Chosen all clearly thought he was dead (which he is) why would any be aiming for him. Why not appear as one of the live and active Chosen?

 

One possible explanation is that the doer was trying to spread dissension amongst the other Chosen--the alliance between Demandred, Mesaana and Semirhage, and the apparent alliance between Cyndane, Moghedian and Moridin (remember the Forsaken don't know of the cour'souvra, though Aran'gar guesses) leaves Graendal and Aran'gar in a loose position. Aran'gar herself points this out to Graendal. We know Aran'gar wasn't at fault (she wonders openly if Demandred is trying to hide that he did it), but it could be Graendal.

 

Still this is a fairly weak argument. It seems to me that there are less self-destructive ways of causing dissension without risking the cause of the Shadow itself, much less disobeying the Dark One openly, especially given the Dark One only just cracked down on disobedience.

 

The Attack Was Meant To Draw Rand's Attention North

 

I'm putting this up because I have seen it suggested, and more or less so that we can rule it out. The method of it would be that maybe one of the Forsaken was a double agent or has since decided to turn on the Shadow. Straight up it's unlikely, but as a source for this attack its impossible--there are better ways to warn Rand to send an army to attack him, even if you feel certain its impossible that army would succeed.

 

Nope. Looney bin with this one.

 

It Wasn't The Forsaken

 

Or rather, it wasn't one of the old Forsaken.Firstly, we know that around book ten the Dark One was feeling remarkably dissatisfied with his Chosen. He was forced to rely on them because they were irreplaceable in their knowledge and ability, yet they were fractious and self-serving, and the previous threat of their utter annihilation was no longer available.

 

He responded to this in a number of ways. Reigning them in tightly under Moridin, Soulbinding Cyndane and Moghedian, having Shaidar Haren go over their heads to directly interact with darkfriends like Alviarin and so on.

 

It's in that last one that I believe the key is, specifically Shaidar Haren marks Alviarin with a weaker version of the Chosen Mark as a sign of favour. Now, that doesn't instantly mean that he's also raising new chosen, however it does show that Shaidar Haren is elevating Third Agers, and marking them--effectively it shows that the Dark One is attempting to create methods of accessing power without having to rely on the current Chosen too heavily.

 

Now Alviarin only gets a weak mark, which makes sense. She is not overly strong in the power, and her education is that of a Third Ager, and we know that the Dark One values these things in his Chosen. RJ stated it thus...

 

the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge.

 

[Tor QotW]

 

So, the Dark One clearly places value on knowledge and strength, yet he can't (and doesn't) like having to rely on his current Chosen, who in recent days have caused problems with disobedience. The answer is Taim.

 

Mazrim Taim

 

Origins

 

Firstly according to RJ he is 28 years of age in LoC, and the earliest a man can spark is 18*. This means that currently Taim has been channeling a minimum of 6 years and a maximum of around 11 years (a year has passed since LoC).

 

We also know something of what he was doing during the time prior to his announcing himself Dragon 2 years ago--he says that he found five men over the years who could channel, though the only one who had the courage to go beyond the training went mad after 2 years. That two years, along with the comment of 'over the years' plus the 2 years after he announced himself Dragon is why i set up the 6 year minimum, though in truth i believe it to be longer.

 

Now even 6 years is a long time for Taim not to be showing signs of the Taint--both the mental instability, and the physical rotting. Its not impossible of course, and some suggest that Taim's emotional instability and hubris might be a form of highly functional insanity, but even so, it seems a long time.

 

This is what i suggest. Around fifteen or sixteen years ago we know that Ishamael was in one of his free cycles (he personally physically forced Jarna Milari into the ter'angreal that killed her) and that he knew at the time that the Dragon Reborn had been born, and that Tarmon Gai'don was fast approaching. At this time I believe that he set out to gather channelers--beginning by testing and training men himself directly (and probably having women trained as well, Liandrin certainly infers as much in tFoH), and then setting them to go out and train men.

 

Why do I believe Taim is one such? For starters we know that Ishamael did it before, during the Trolloc Wars, so it makes sense that he would do it again. Secondly we have Taim's mannerisms--comments like 'so-called Aiel', the use of the lightning bolt sigil favoured by Sammael and Be'lal, the colouring of the tiles, the use of the Lord of Chaos comment--all of which imply, since we are assuming here that he is not a recycled Chosen, significant long term exposure to the Forsaken and their mannerisms.

 

Beyond which he actually states it, he says he found five men--he claims only one of those men went beyond the testing, and that man went mad in two years, yet this almost certainly must be a lie because we know Taim is a darkfriend--one way or another he IS a darkfriend. Thirdly, he comments to Rand that if you use to much power in testing a man for the ability, the resonance MIGHT kill him, yet if he learned this through personal experience then one of those five men died, and there is no 'might' about it. His knowledge is too exactly technical.

 

So that, according to this theory, is Taim's origins. From there i believe he was commanded to announce himself Dragon by Ishamael and perform atrocities to spread and heighten fear of the Dragon. Certainly that’s implied by the few comments we have about his actions in that time, of what he did to Bashere's emissaries.

 

What Ties Taim to this Attack

 

1. Timing. We know that less than three days prior to the attack Taim was desperately seeking to learn Rand's location--and yes, he didn't get it from Logain, but even assuming one of Logain's men isn't a plant then there are 51 Aes Sedai who directly stated their intention to play on the rift between Logain and Taim who could have revealed it.

 

From there, the timing is perfect. Three days, time to go to the Trollocs, command them into the Ways, have them travel the Ways, leave at Stedding Shangtai, and make the trip from there down into northern Tear and the manor.

 

2. History. Taim is well known for assuming Forsaken characteristics and mannerisms. He copies their language, uses their designs (the fist holding three prongs of lightning) and colours (the use of Moridin's red and black). It would fit with his nature to appear as Sammael.

 

3. Modus Operendi. Whilst the attack makes no sense from one of the real Forsaken, It fits Taim. His methods are always blunt--this almost exactly matched what he did during the attack on the Sun Palace, throwing force blindly as long as it can't be traced to him with no real pause for thought or planning on the off chance that it succeed. It matches what he did with saving Rand from the Grey Man, the way he set up his inner cadre of darkfriends, the attack on Demira, the way he responded to Pevara....

 

Taim is blunt, and so was this attack.

 

 

 

[draconian]

Ok, so send a hundred thousand Trollocs to kill Rand. Seems a simple enough plan, no? And indeed, as Logain states it was a close run thing. Without his Asha'men reinforcements they might have lost. Only pause for a moment a consider that--Rand had the male Choedan Kal and Callandor, and Trollocs attack in a neat little group that would have been right for the plucking. By all rights it should never have come to be as close as it was, only Rand's stupidity allowed for that.

i thought it was cadsuane that held both Choedan Kal and Callandor so how is rand stupid?

[LordoftheMorning]

I always thought it was Taim as well.. I know that everyone believes that he isn't a recycled Chosen, but something is up with him. He was either trained by the Forsaken or he is something more.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 09:54:23 AM

Ok, so send a hundred thousand Trollocs to kill Rand. Seems a simple enough plan, no? And indeed, as Logain states it was a close run thing. Without his Asha'men reinforcements they might have lost. Only pause for a moment a consider that--Rand had the male Choedan Kal and Callandor, and Trollocs attack in a neat little group that would have been right for the plucking. By all rights it should never have come to be as close as it was, only Rand's stupidity allowed for that.

 

i thought it was cadsuane that held both Choedan Kal and Callandor so how is rand stupid?

 

They're all stupid. Any and all of them should have thought of it.

 

Loial, "Oh my, lions and tigers and bears--mixed with the human genome to create terrible monsters. Whatever should we do?"

 

Random, "Mmm, we have these super powerful sa'angreal we could use?"

 

Innately stupid person, "Don't be silly. Let's just trust on the chance that Rand's exposure to the taint caused a really helpful melding of a past personality of his soul who has knowledge of powerful and devastating weaves."

 

Logain, "Lucky I brough my boys. It was a close run thing."

 

The point was more in that the Forsaken would have expected the use of those sa'angreal though.

[draconian]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 09:54:23 AM

Ok, so send a hundred thousand Trollocs to kill Rand. Seems a simple enough plan, no? And indeed, as Logain states it was a close run thing. Without his Asha'men reinforcements they might have lost. Only pause for a moment a consider that--Rand had the male Choedan Kal and Callandor, and Trollocs attack in a neat little group that would have been right for the plucking. By all rights it should never have come to be as close as it was, only Rand's stupidity allowed for that.

 

i thought it was cadsuane that held both Choedan Kal and Callandor so how is rand stupid?

 

They're all stupid. Any and all of them should have thought of it.

i doubt she or rand keeps them at hand longer then nded

heck rand has in the past lock both away behind weaves etc which lanfear knows therefore some of the forsaken may know aswell

 

[Durinax]

in a massive attack they wouldnt be like oh lets go grab that, they would focus on the attack (since channelling requires extreme focus) and what type of channelling would finish it fastest

[CTM]

the Choedan Kal would tell every male channeler where Rand was. That could make a bad situation worse very quickly.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 09:54:23 AM

Ok, so send a hundred thousand Trollocs to kill Rand. Seems a simple enough plan, no? And indeed, as Logain states it was a close run thing. Without his Asha'men reinforcements they might have lost. Only pause for a moment a consider that--Rand had the male Choedan Kal and Callandor, and Trollocs attack in a neat little group that would have been right for the plucking. By all rights it should never have come to be as close as it was, only Rand's stupidity allowed for that.

 

i thought it was cadsuane that held both Choedan Kal and Callandor so how is rand stupid?

 

They're all stupid. Any and all of them should have thought of it.

i doubt she or rand keeps them at hand longer then nded

heck rand has in the past lock both away behind weaves etc which lanfear knows therefore some of the forsaken may know aswell

 

 

Actually what Lanfear knew was that he kept them hidden by weaves in the room of the place he was currently occupying. The Forsaken knew Rand had channelers with him who would give him more than enough time to reach his room.

 

in a massive attack they wouldnt be like oh lets go grab that, they would focus on the attack (since channelling requires extreme focus) and what type of channelling would finish it fastest

 

The Forsaken had just had their collective asses handed to them because they trusted in Rand's short-sightedness. They failed, epically, at the Cleansing because they were not prepared and organised, and Rand's forces were. So in effect had every reason to think Rand would have the sa'angreal close at hand, and that he would be prepared to use them.

 

the Choedan Kal would tell every male channeler where Rand was. That could make a bad situation worse very quickly.

 

How so? Rand and Nynaeve were placed in danger because they were absorbed with the Cleansing. Free to think Rand could swat away entire armies of male channelers with the Choedan Kal, and Nynaeve and Cadsuane could warn him of their presense so sneak attacks are out as well.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Okay so Ive read the passage, heres what I think.

 

The thing I like most about your theory Luckers is the way you depict Taims nature, it fits with my own views on him 100%. Ishamael recruited him, he was trained in the Power extensively, and ordered to proclaim himself as the Dragon Reborn. Beyond that I always believed Ishamael pushed further in his manipulations, that he had the Black Ajah create some situation in which Taim could escape with the help of his followers, something that would be less likely to occur without a Black sister on the inside. I think Ishamaels plan for Taim here was to create fear of the Dragon as you said (to be a False Dragon so close to the real thing made it work even better I think) but to also cause the public to doubt the White Towers ability in handling male channelers, despite having a faction solely dedicated to that objective. Two birds, one stone. Patterns within patterns, as Mik said.

 

Now, here is what I think Taims bigger picture role is. He isnt just there to steal Ashaman from Rand, he is there to stop Rand from using the Ashaman altogether. And the method he uses for this is a calculated, deliberate bluntness aimed at Rand and Rand alone, using Lanfears intel that Rand knows things only Lews Therin could as the foundation of how Taim would create that gap.

 

My belief is that Ishamael told Taim to cause as big a gap between Rand and the Black Tower as he could, and to help Taim in this task Ishamael teaches him of the Age of Legends, with particular emphasis on the Chosen. And as Taim settles in the role Rand gave him, we begin to see all the Forsaken references Luckers mentioned; the red and black tiles, the hand clutching three lightning bolts, things Ishamael might think Lews Therin would recognise. Then we have the so-called Aiel comment, again something only Rand would ever pick up on having access to the knowledge of what the Aiel used to be like, again something only Lews Therin is as likely to understand as the Forsaken themselves. And then, when Rand tells Taim if he moves against the Aes Sedai Taim would be in biiig trouble-in Caemlyn?-Taim responds with words to the effect of "so if Demandred makes a move, I answer for it?" He just casually mentions Demandred, not the Forsaken in general, as if he knew Demandred and maybe knew his plans.

 

So yeah, I think thats what Taims real task is. His plans have been set in stone, ready for Rand to notice all the deliberate similarities Taim has with the Chosen.

 

The thing I like second best about Luckers' theory is that it succeeded in convincing me that Taim is a new Chosen. Others have tried and failed, but the way Luckers put it fits in with my own belief of Taims importance to the Shadow, whereas anywhere else I saw the idea it just didnt look convincing. The position Taim is in could easily go wrong for the Shadow, and they would only send someone to Rand like they do with Taim if they were absolutely sure of both their allegience and the skill necessary to do the job. Remember, if I am right then Taims primary task is to make Rand paranoid of the Black Tower, to quell his faith in his own creation to the point that he doesnt dare use it. If you ask me, he was very close to succeeding in this, but Rand managed to sly a few loyal Ashaman, which were enough for the tasks Rand aimed himself at.

 

So, Im convinced Taim sent the attack, and I also believe (as I did before, but it fits even better now) that it was Taim who ordered Isam to kill Rand and Min. Isams PoV revealed that the person who masked their appearance and voice claimed to be Chosen, and Isam obeyed, despite not even being 100% sure that the person was male, let alone being sure it really was a Chosen. Im not saying that Slayer is compelled to obey the Chosen like shadowspawn, but the fact that he obeyed shows that he was convinced, especially if I recall rightly when I think Isam thought to himself that he only obeyed the Chosen.

 

Does anyone actually believe Moridin doesnt know who is "masquerading" as Chosen? Is there a chance that Moridin might not be informed if Taim was Chosen? I certainly hope not, not with Moridin being Nae'blis. I will be mad if the Dark One starts working round Moridin instead of through him. My theory is that Moridin is waiting, letting Taim decide how to introduce himself as Chosen to the others. God damn it, he needs to be at the next coffee hour!

 

Well done Luckers, and thanks for opening the thread in response to my question on the theory.

 

So does all this mean Taim has access to the True Power? I actually hope not, that should stay with Moridin among humans till the end now if you ask me.

[CTM]

 

 

the Choedan Kal would tell every male channeler where Rand was. That could make a bad situation worse very quickly.

 

How so? Rand and Nynaeve were placed in danger because they were absorbed with the Cleansing. Free to think Rand could swat away entire armies of male channelers with the Choedan Kal, and Nynaeve and Cadsuane could warn him of their presense so sneak attacks are out as well.

 

 

 

They were also prepared to be placed in danger i.e. strategic links, protective domes. one balefire is all it takes. channeling requires line of sight if i am not mistaken and that would put people inside at a severe disadvantage.

 

I will concede that Rand may not use enough of the OP to let everyone know where he is, but it is definitely a risk.

 

 

 

[LedZepMan]

first off, I think that Rand was too occupied worrying about LTT weilding the Power to grab the Choedan Kal.  I know if I was in that situation, I wouldn't even think about it.

 

Second, great theory on Taim luckers. It makes total sense, except maybe the BA escape trick, but to me that is because I have no proof. It is a great theory, makes alot of sense.

[Braus]

 

Taim is blunt, and so was this attack.

 

 

 

 

Without writing that much, i can share that im thinking the same about taim :) The sun palace attack, was in a way very weak. It was pretty much. "ok we know Rand returned to his room a while back, lets bomb it" And then they had no idea if they had succeeded or not, and are pretty much caught by suprise all gathered when Rand notice them. If truelly that many of the people Rand had gathered around him was darkfriends, they should had been able to choose a better time. But Taim, who proberly got alot of newfound power, seems wasteful and just gives the order.

Same thing with the trolloc attack, if Taim gotten himself a chosen mark or the likes, i bet that was also a way to flex his newfound power. He seems very ignorant, just like forexample Liandrin(thinks to much of himself that is). I remember the few times we got to experience Liandrins PoV, and she was always very high in self estem, thinking that she was everyone's equals or above. She was the kind of person who might admire someone one day, then the other day(once say she spent some time with that person and learnt a few new things) suddenly think that she is above. They dont seem that self concious about how powerful they actually are.

[Phariah]

i always thought it was Demo that sent the force, figured he wanted some payback for the cleansing fight lol he was stressed

" i'm a great tactician a leader. but leaders didn't need to fight. " or something like that.it was a tantrum attack hehe  ::)

[Tyrell]

first off, I think that Rand was too occupied worrying about LTT weilding the Power to grab the Choedan Kal.  I know if I was in that situation, I wouldn't even think about it.

 

So? Logain could have used the CK, he's certainly strong enough. Or one of them could use Callandor. I don't know the various comparative strengths of the other male channellers with Rand and Logain but those that we've seen a lot - Flinn, Narishma, for ex. - seem to be getting pretty strong too.

[Braus]

1. Rand dont trust himself with them (might be a good thing afterall, who knows if lews therin would had given up the power if he had been using the CK)

2. Rand doesnt trust them with using it(which is kinda understandable since a pretty large percent of the Ashaman that he kept "close" before turned out to be darkfriends/loyal to a darkfriend.

3. He is proberly afraid that someone will nick it, so he proberly put em away at his safe place once more:P

[Pandemonium]

Luckers, that was a great theory.  I haven't read something this original and well-supported in a long time.  I had completely forgotten that there were Dreadlords in the Trolloc Wars-- this point really makes it obvious that Ishamael would have spent the last few years recruiting male channelers.  I always wondered where Taim got his knowledge because it seemed too fishy that Taim taught himself all of the things he knows.  Plus, it seemed that shadow would have had to have taught Taim for far longer than the breakout from the Aes Sedai.  How could Taim really have learned enough 'special' weaves for inside circle by himself?  I also thought it was somewhat fishy that Taim knew a strong form of compulsion.  Rand knows a lot of tricks, but he obtained them from Asmodean and LTT.  Taim would need a similar teacher to learn many of his tricks.  And Taim probably started learning these tricks long before his capture and escape from the Aes Sedai.

 

Secondly, I wanted to add 1 important point to your theory.  To me, it is about 90% certain that Taim is already a Forsaken.  In the KoD forsaken meeting A'rangar notes that there was an unused chair (11th chair) among the Forsaken.  Who else could it be for than Taim? 

 

Another VERY important point is that Taim brought one of the 7 seals to Rand.  To me, this shouts that Taim has been majorly influenced by a Forsaken-- most likely Ishamael.  The 7 seals are very important, and I find it interested that Taim was ordered to give Rand a seal in LoC.  Later, beginning in CoT (right after the cleansing of saidin) we see the Dark One makes efforts to retrieve these seals.  Dobraine and Bashere's wife are hurt in the process.  In KoD, Moridin makes explicit instructions that the seals need to be retrieved.  I think this may all have something to do with the fact that saidin is now cleansed, and Rand can do more danger to the DO with seals now that he can channel pure saidin.  I'm not sure how effective he would have been able to seal the DO's prison if the saidin was already tainted with the DO.  Now, however, Moridin is probably afraid that Rand actually could find an effective way to recreate the prison using cleansed saidin.

 

Finally, I want to add one possible loony theory into this mix.  Could Taim actually be Ishamael's son?  It would be very hard for Ishamael to find and recruit strong male channelers.  Taim is a VERY strong male channeler, almost as strong as Rand and Ishamael.  It would be very, very difficult for Ishamael to recruit very strong channelers like this and then subsequently turn them into dreadlords.  In fact, it would be like finding a needle in a haystack.  Another strategy would be for Ishamael to breed with strong members of the Black Ajah until viable offspring were created.  Ishamael keeps coming back every few years for centuries now.  To me, it makes sense that he would try to breed a few dreadlords and have them raised according to his specifications.  Could Taim actually be one of Ishamael's most promising sons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

first off, I think that Rand was too occupied worrying about LTT weilding the Power to grab the Choedan Kal.  I know if I was in that situation, I wouldn't even think about it.

 

But the issue is not rationalising Rand's lack of thought, the issue is that the Forsaken would have known he had the Choedan Kal nearby, and given their recent humiliation, expected organised defense.

 

In effect, they would have expected the use of the Choedan Kal and Callandor in that situation.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

first off, I think that Rand was too occupied worrying about LTT weilding the Power to grab the Choedan Kal.  I know if I was in that situation, I wouldn't even think about it.

 

But the issue is not rationalising Rand's lack of thought, the issue is that the Forsaken would have known he had the Choedan Kal nearby, and given their recent humiliation, expected organised defense.

 

In effect, they would have expected the use of the Choedan Kal and Callandor in that situation.

 

 

 

So whats your take on Moridins comments about someone masquerading as Chosen Luckers? Do you think the Dark One didnt tell Moridin, or would you say his surprise is a manipulation? I think it would be a good way for him to make the others feel under pressure.

 

 

I really want Taim at the next coffee hour.

[Luckers]

first off, I think that Rand was too occupied worrying about LTT weilding the Power to grab the Choedan Kal.  I know if I was in that situation, I wouldn't even think about it.

 

But the issue is not rationalising Rand's lack of thought, the issue is that the Forsaken would have known he had the Choedan Kal nearby, and given their recent humiliation, expected organised defense.

 

In effect, they would have expected the use of the Choedan Kal and Callandor in that situation.

 

 

 

So whats your take on Moridins comments about someone masquerading as Chosen Luckers? Do you think the Dark One didnt tell Moridin, or would you say his surprise is a manipulation? I think it would be a good way for him to make the others feel under pressure.

 

 

I really want Taim at the next coffee hour.

 

Firstly, yes i do think its likely Moridin knew Sammael was dead and not coming back. My personal line of thought lies with manipulation and presure. Consider, initially pretending it was him and then slipping in that smooth 'or someone pretending to be him' is an excellent interrogation technique. Looking for a slip. To his mind none of the Chosen knew that Sammael was dead, and likely therefore would have thought that using him as a disguise was a clever subterfuge. Moridin leaping straight to the end point might have thrown them, and a visible twitch would be as much as a shout of guilt in that group.

 

But, that being said, we don't know for a fact that the Dark One DID tell Moridin these things. Consider, who's to say the Dark One even knows this is going on, and thus needed to give Moridin this information. As Demandred states "He was never sure how much the Great Lord knew of the world. He had been as startled by ignorance as by knowledge." And as to why Moridin wouldn't have gone to him with this, maybe he's too busy. He denies access to himself as he chooses. Elaida says that "...the dead appearing was the first sign, a thinning of reality as the Dark One gathered himself."

 

We haven't seen the Dark One in person since he began to 'gather himself', but whatever he's been doing he's still in the process of doing it. Perhaps he's too busy with his own stuff.

 

Besides, Moridin may have asked and recieved no answer. Semirhage dwells on the Dark One's handling of his Chosen.

 

 

Asmodean. A traitor, and so doomed, but he really had vanished, and Shaidar Haran's existence and her own orders here combined to remind her that the Great Lord worked in his own ways toward his own goals. The Chosen were no more than pieces on the board; they might be Counselors and Spires, but they were still pieces. If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving Moghedien or Lanfear, or even Asmodean? Might Shaidar Haran not be sent to deliver covert commands to Graendal or Sammael? Or for that matter, to Demandred or Mesaana? Their uneasy alliance—if it could be called by so strong a name—had lasted a long time, but neither would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael

 

[LoC-6-Threads of Woven Shadow]

[OptimusPrime]

first off, I think that Rand was too occupied worrying about LTT weilding the Power to grab the Choedan Kal.  I know if I was in that situation, I wouldn't even think about it.

 

But the issue is not rationalising Rand's lack of thought, the issue is that the Forsaken would have known he had the Choedan Kal nearby, and given their recent humiliation, expected organised defense.

 

In effect, they would have expected the use of the Choedan Kal and Callandor in that situation.

 

 

 

So whats your take on Moridins comments about someone masquerading as Chosen Luckers? Do you think the Dark One didnt tell Moridin, or would you say his surprise is a manipulation? I think it would be a good way for him to make the others feel under pressure.

 

 

I really want Taim at the next coffee hour.

 

Firstly, yes i do think its likely Moridin knew Sammael was dead and not coming back. My personal line of thought lies with manipulation and presure. Consider, initially pretending it was him and then slipping in that smooth 'or someone pretending to be him' is an excellent interrogation technique. Looking for a slip. To his mind none of the Chosen knew that Sammael was dead, and likely therefore would have thought that using him as a disguise was a clever subterfuge. Moridin leaping straight to the end point might have thrown them, and a visible twitch would be as much as a shout of guilt in that group.

 

But, that being said, we don't know for a fact that the Dark One DID tell Moridin these things. Consider, who's to say the Dark One even knows this is going on, and thus needed to give Moridin this information. As Demandred states "He was never sure how much the Great Lord knew of the world. He had been as startled by ignorance as by knowledge." And as to why Moridin wouldn't have gone to him with this, maybe he's too busy. He denies access to himself as he chooses. Elaida says that "...the dead appearing was the first sign, a thinning of reality as the Dark One gathered himself."

 

We haven't seen the Dark One in person since he began to 'gather himself', but whatever he's been doing he's still in the process of doing it. Perhaps he's too busy with his own stuff.

 

Besides, Moridin may have asked and recieved no answer. Semirhage dwells on the Dark One's handling of his Chosen.

 

 

Asmodean. A traitor, and so doomed, but he really had vanished, and Shaidar Haran's existence and her own orders here combined to remind her that the Great Lord worked in his own ways toward his own goals. The Chosen were no more than pieces on the board; they might be Counselors and Spires, but they were still pieces. If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving Moghedien or Lanfear, or even Asmodean? Might Shaidar Haran not be sent to deliver covert commands to Graendal or Sammael? Or for that matter, to Demandred or Mesaana? Their uneasy alliance—if it could be called by so strong a name—had lasted a long time, but neither would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael

 

[LoC-6-Threads of Woven Shadow]

 

True, but my belief is that Moridin knows it is Taim and knows the Dark One raised him as a new Chosen. I think Moridin is letting Taim leave signs of being Chosen, and that at the moment a good idea is to leave Sammael trails. This way, the other Chosen can be sure its not Sammael-after it was revealed Sammael was dead-and that the Shadowspawn obeyed means something is going on as you mentioned. When the time comes, none of them can deny that Taim is a genuine Chosen because the Chosen mark will be too obvious to miss. I think Moridin will be helping Taim establish his place as a new Chosen, and make the fact that a new Chosen has risen become a factor of shaping up the rest. They will become more competitive if someone else becomes eligible for the prize theyre all after.