If Rand hearing voices makes him insane is Mat crazy too?

[dholm]

Anyone who refuses to acknowledge Rand is crazy after having it pointed out to them is denying reality. Hearing voices is not sane, people. Listing everyone who's dead for you isn't exactly sane either.

 

Mat doesn't hear voices. The Old Blood is an established mechanic in Randland. It has nothing to do with insanity.

[a pale tanned lover]

Anyone who refuses to acknowledge Rand is crazy after having it pointed out to them is denying reality

And i thought they were fantasy books. *opens up a gateway, and leaves conversation* ;)

[Perrin 187]

 

 

What kind of list is that with Moiraine at #4 and Rand at #5 O.o?

 

My top three are constantly changing, as of KOD my favorite characters are

 

#1-Lan

#2-Perrin

#3-Thom

#4-Moraine

#5-Rand

#6-Mat

#7-Nynaeve

[Phariah]

ok the training methods at the BT  are to actually make something of those men, i mean u have no idea when TG is gonna hit they need to have some skills and strength, so you want a nice mellow training system? ok TG hit we send 700-1000 men, 300 of them attack w/ small projected rocks and a few gusts of air since they are the strongest the other 700 use some blown around dust and toss a few candle flames at the trollocs since they have really no training or strength  ::)

 

and as for the AS at the wells .... lol he was far more humane than i would have been after being beaten multiple times, after seeing Min beaten, after being held in a chest. lol nah i would have executed any AS that held me shielded, beat me or Min and the rest would have been stilled on the spot and sent to be permanent gaishan  8)

 

[Perrin 187]

ok the training methods at the BT  are to actually make something of those men, i mean u have no idea when TG is gonna hit they need to have some skills and strength, so you want a nice mellow training system? ok TG hit we send 700-1000 men, 300 of them attack w/ small projected rocks and a few gusts of air since they are the strongest the other 700 use some blown around dust and toss a few candle flames at the trollocs since they have really no training or strength  ::)

 

and as for the AS at the wells .... lol he was far more humane than i would have been after being beaten multiple times, after seeing Min beaten, after being held in a chest. lol nah i would have executed any AS that held me shielded, beat me or Min and the rest would have been stilled on the spot and sent to be permanent gaishan   8)

 

In my orginial post I said the Aes Sedai deserve it. That still doesn't make Rand Gandhi or a nice guy. And the training as I see it, is inefficent, you kill some of the few people who can channel, just because you don't want to create something like the WT. The WT can train people to channel extremely efficently without killing them.

 

Your argument is flawed, just because TG is coming doesn't mean Rand is absolve of his actions. Sure he has a good damn reason to rule with an iron fist, but he is still ruling with an iron fist.Like I said earlier, he may have good reason to be extremely paranoid, but he is still extremely paranoid. Which isn't heathly for the mind.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

He has to do those things. If he didn't rule with an iron fist, things would slip through the cracks. And may I say he doesn't rule with an iron fist anyway, however, he does keep a tight rein on the nobility to stop them from screwing up everything. Also, who cares about training losses if each Asha'man is equal to 50,000 men? 1000 Asha'man = 500,000+ men. And its martial law imo. Rand is running around trying to get things ready, so he has to be hard on people that are working against the plan. He is absolved of everything he does because of it O.o.

[OptimusPrime]

Actually that statement is just his perception of events and how he words it do not give concrete evidence Optimus Prime.

 

You'd probably say the same thing even if the blurb tells of Rands insanity. In fact, Im sure one of them does say that Rand and the Ashaman are succumbing to the effects of the Taint-MADNESS. Of course, one way or another that will be discarded I bet, because it goes against your personal belief APTL.

 

Thats not the way to argue really.

 

Have you read TGS? It is as said a review by a person, a very thin mostly spoilerless review. You cant base anything on it when it comes to Rand's sanity. You can take the word though and read that Rand isnt feeling that well.

 

Nowhere it has been clear that Rand is Insane imo. The greatness of WOT is that you get sooo many Point of Views and so much information, which makes the world abit more alive. But all of the information isnt right, far from it.

 

Id say it is the way to argue with someone who disagrees with absolutely everything you say, who does so just for the sake of it. Anyway, look at this, and tell me this is PoV based. Try denying this.

 

Winters Heart blurb

 

 

Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, is slowly succumbing to the taint that the Dark One has placed upon saidin - the male half of the True Source. His Asha'man followers are also showing the signs of the insanity that once devastated the world and brought the Age of Legends to an end.

And as Rand falters, the Shadow falls across a stricken land. In the city of Ebou Dar the Seanchan, blind to the folly of their cause, marshal their forces and continue their relentless assault. In Shayol Ghul the Forsaken join together to destroy the Dragon.

Rand's only chance is to hazard the impossible and remove the taint from saidin. But to do so he must master a power from the Age of Legends that none have ever dared to risk - a power that can annihilate Creation and bring an end to Time itself

 

 

 

Do I need to go on? If the blurbs of the books say he is going insane, well... I just know there are going to be pointless denials about it still. Who knows, maybe Harriet wrote her interpretation of the book as the blurb, and it just so happens to fit with my theory. Maybe she was joking, or being sarcastic, or just writing how Rand feels about himself, or how Mat feels about Rand. Who knows, maybe she outright lied. Better any of that or any more far fetched ideas that make Rands difficulties not madness, even though the plot summary designed to give readers insight is wrong. Better that than admit to being wrong.

[Knightscape]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, is slowly succumbing to the taint that the Dark One has placed upon saidin - the male half of the True Source. His Asha'man followers are also showing the signs of the insanity that once devastated the world and brought the Age of Legends to an end.

And as Rand falters, the Shadow falls across a stricken land. In the city of Ebou Dar the Seanchan, blind to the folly of their cause, marshal their forces and continue their relentless assault. In Shayol Ghul the Forsaken join together to destroy the Dragon.

Rand's only chance is to hazard the impossible and remove the taint from saidin. But to do so he must master a power from the Age of Legends that none have ever dared to risk - a power that can annihilate Creation and bring an end to Time itself

 

 

Do I need to go on? If the blurbs of the books say he is going insane, well... I just know there are going to be pointless denials about it still. Who knows, maybe Harriet wrote her interpretation of the book as the blurb, and it just so happens to fit with my theory. Maybe she was joking, or being sarcastic, or just writing how Rand feels about himself, or how Mat feels about Rand. Who knows, maybe she outright lied. Better any of that or any more far fetched ideas that make Rands difficulties not madness, even though the plot summary designed to give readers insight is wrong. Better that than admit to being wrong.

 

I think "showing the signs" is the key phrase.  The Asha'man are showing the signs because, well, they are (which the wine takes care of).  Whereas  Rand is showing the signs because LT is speaking to him.  As per the blurb, could it not be for the purpose of inciting debate as to whether Rand is going insane or not?

[Braus]

I havent argued against rand showing signs of insanity. I mean hell, i bet there is loads of people who shows the signs, without actually being insane. Noone can read minds afterall, except sookie in true blood.

 

Now i dont know if i got a wrong way at looking at things, but my opinion of insane is forexample if Rand would go schizo. Say do something and then not remember anything at all, or if he.. nvm dont really know exactly how to describe that word. Since after all what Rand has been going through is alot. Its pretty natural that your personality changes when you, how many years have it been, 2-3? goes from a simple farm boy, to a man who not only have people all around trying to kill him or hurt him in anyway possible by killing someone close, but a person who also are pretty much forced to chase after forsaken and other darkfriends and kill them, clear up Randland of petty squabbles and make it ready for the last battle(he needs to do something that took arthur hawking quite sometime).

Question really is: Is if he's personality is changing because of cold logic decisions. Or if his personality is shifting because of some outside power, the taint/lews therin.

 

Just think there is a difference between insanity and experience(experience that causes you to change who you are)

[a pale tanned lover]

Tell you what Optimus, i for one will not argue about Rand sanity or insanity if you can point out in the book this part of the blurb:-

In Shayol Ghul the Forsaken join together to destroy the Dragon.

[Perrin 187]

He has to do those things. If he didn't rule with an iron fist, things would slip through the cracks. And may I say he doesn't rule with an iron fist anyway, however, he does keep a tight rein on the nobility to stop them from screwing up everything. Also, who cares about training losses if each Asha'man is equal to 50,000 men? 1000 Asha'man = 500,000+ men. And its martial law imo. Rand is running around trying to get things ready, so he has to be hard on people that are working against the plan. He is absolved of everything he does because of it O.o.

Yeah, but you guys were getting on my back because I called Rand a,"Ruthless dictator" and brought up my reasons why I think so. Look at his actions from the point of view of say Lord Agelmar or Queen Tenobia. They haven't seen him wield callandor but what they do see is a guy going from country to country and conquering. Thats a very dictatorish action.

 

Ashamen Training, yeah why waste some of the few people alive who can help you that signifigantly. there are other orginzations such as WT who create effective channelers without killing thier people.

 

Plus like Cadsuane said if rand lives and wins, the way he is acting it would be almost as bad as if the DO won. Because he is enforcing strict polocies and has absolute power and is a heartless maniac. So no that doesn't absolve him of his actions. If he wins he'll have lasting negavtive effect on the world. 

 

[Braus]

Bah if he wins he'll write the history :) Just look at our own...

And im not sure what kind of meaning a ruthless dictator got in that age. Rand is far from greedy at least.

 

[Sab]

Ummm ruthless dictator????? How has he crushed all who oppose him?  Did he wipe out the rebellions against him in Tear or Cairhien?  He negoiated with the Tear rebels.  Did he try to wipe out the Shaido before Sammael sent them everywhere?  Did he order an attack on the white tower after ELaida had him kidnapped.  He wants a truce with the Seachean.  He has no desire to rule the world, he just wants the nations united in time for the final battle and to stop their petty fighting. If he has to conquer them all to ensure it then thats what he will do.  But its not so he can be some all mighty ruler.  He welcomes any who wish to ally with him.  If he was a ruthless dictator he would of never given Andor up after he controlled it. 

[Mr Ares]

Mat has some things in common with him.

Not really. He doesn't have any voices in his head, for one thing. In fact he possesses none of the symptoms of Rand's insanity.

 

Now if I started speaking Latin while playing a game of poker with some buddies or started quoting Roman war cries despite the fact that I have never had any inclination or opportunity to learn the language or I started commanding a battle against the Gauls as a Roman general while I have a fever.

My buddies would be suggesting brain chemistry altering medication.

Well, if you are speaking Latin, a language you have never studied, in a way that suggests years of experince with it, scientists might be curious, but I'm not sure they would consider you insane. If you started talking about Joeus the Roman, who spoke to you in Latin in your head, as the source of your knowledge, then there's a bit more of a case for you being crazy.

 

um... Rand is a ruthless dictator? absolute monarch?

Yes. A benevolent tyrant is no less a tyrant.

 

Tell you what Optimus, i for one will not argue about Rand sanity or insanity if you can point out in the book this part of the blurb:-

In Shayol Ghul the Forsaken join together to destroy the Dragon.

WH 13. They gather at SG, and are told to kill Rand when he uses the CK. At Shayol Ghul, joined together, destroy Dragon. Seems to fit.

 

How has he crushed all who oppose him? Did he wipe out the rebellions against him in Tear or Cairhien? He negoiated with the Tear rebels.

So? Ruthlessness is not a synonym for bloodlust.

Did he try to wipe out the Shaido before Sammael sent them everywhere? Did he order an attack on the white tower after ELaida had him kidnapped.

Ruthless is not a synonym for stupid.

If he has to conquer them all to ensure it then thats what he will do.

Sounds pretty ruthless to me.

But its not so he can be some all mighty ruler. He welcomes any who wish to ally with him. If he was a ruthless dictator he would of never given Andor up after he controlled it.

Ruthless is not a synonym for power crazed.

[a pale tanned lover]

WH 13. They gather at SG, and are told to kill Rand when he uses the CK. At Shayol Ghul, joined together, destroy Dragon. Seems to fit.

Actually Mr Ares they gather close to SG. So twice in your statement your wrong. But the question was directed for Optimus so don't feel bad that you are wrong(twice).

[Braus]

Mat has some things in common with him.

Not really. He doesn't have any voices in his head, for one thing. In fact he possesses none of the symptoms of Rand's insanity.

 

 

Well if we are talking insanity again... Then mat speaking the old tounge and then not being able to control it/not remembering it is just as big of a "sign" of "insanity" as argueing with a voice in your head. So yes, he does possess some of the symptoms that Rand has. Unless we decide that alot of the stuff on Rand isnt symptons on insanity but merely apart of the Wheel Of Time world and Rand just acts after cold logic to reach his goal to face the dark one in the best position possible.

 

 

 

Also this whole thing about Ruthless all depends on what age we are talking about. In our time(part of world?) with democratic systems and free(hmpf commersial) powerful and swift media. Or how the ruling system is in Randland...

[draconian]

Yeah, but you guys were getting on my back because I called Rand a,"Ruthless dictator" and brought up my reasons why I think so. Look at his actions from the point of view of say Lord Agelmar or Queen Tenobia. They haven't seen him wield callandor but what they do see is a guy going from country to country and conquering. Thats a very dictatorish action.

 

Ashamen Training, yeah why waste some of the few people alive who can help you that signifigantly. there are other orginzations such as WT who create effective channelers without killing thier people.

 

Plus like Cadsuane said if rand lives and wins, the way he is acting it would be almost as bad as if the DO won. Because he is enforcing strict polocies and has absolute power and is a heartless maniac. So no that doesn't absolve him of his actions. If he wins he'll have lasting negavtive effect on the world. 

 

how many of the accepted and novices willbe useful in the last battle? very few except maybe to fill circles

aes sedai are not trained as weapons and it takes 10+ years in most cases to make a full aes sedai and even then they do not reach there full power till years later

every man at the BT willbe useful in TG and willl likely be able to output dmg = or greater  most aes sedai

yes some die durring training but rand knew when he made the BT 3 seal were broken and the rest were weakening

he doesnt have 10 years and he nds a strong core/circle of men and women if hes gonna take the fight to the DO so the cost of having strong male channels before TG is some die in training

 

caddsuane is wrong or refering to the cost of victory(such as lews therins cost of victory)

an evil rand ruling for a finite period of time wouldnt even come close to a full DO victory

as loial said "Tarmon Gai'don is coming, and on that hangs the fate not only of this world, but of any world we might flee to"

so tell me how can an evil rand even come close to the evil of the DO spreading all over the universe? thats like saying 1000 is close to infinity

[dholm]

Mat has some things in common with him.

Not really. He doesn't have any voices in his head, for one thing. In fact he possesses none of the symptoms of Rand's insanity.

 

 

Well if we are talking insanity again... Then mat speaking the old tounge and then not being able to control it/not remembering it is just as big of a "sign" of "insanity" as argueing with a voice in your head. So yes, he does possess some of the symptoms that Rand has. Unless we decide that alot of the stuff on Rand isnt symptons on insanity but merely apart of the Wheel Of Time world and Rand just acts after cold logic to reach his goal to face the dark one in the best position possible.

 

How exactly is speaking a language you have never studied or even heard before a sign of insanity? It is completely unexplainable, but insane?

[a pale tanned lover]

How exactly is speaking a language you have never studied or even heard before a sign of insanity? It is completely unexplainable, but insane?

What Braus is saying as far i understood is, its WOT world, and if you're going to compare one, like Rand hearing LTT(Dragon-Dragon Reborn) to our world then you might as well compare Mat speaking a different language/tongue or Perrin talking too wolves. Basically you might as well say they are all insane.

[Braus]

That and the fact that mat sometimes dont remember what he has just done or said >.<

[Padraic_Seebrr]

He has to do those things. If he didn't rule with an iron fist, things would slip through the cracks. And may I say he doesn't rule with an iron fist anyway, however, he does keep a tight rein on the nobility to stop them from screwing up everything. Also, who cares about training losses if each Asha'man is equal to 50,000 men? 1000 Asha'man = 500,000+ men. And its martial law imo. Rand is running around trying to get things ready, so he has to be hard on people that are working against the plan. He is absolved of everything he does because of it O.o.

Yeah, but you guys were getting on my back because I called Rand a,"Ruthless dictator" and brought up my reasons why I think so. Look at his actions from the point of view of say Lord Agelmar or Queen Tenobia. They haven't seen him wield callandor but what they do see is a guy going from country to country and conquering. Thats a very dictatorish action.

 

Ashamen Training, yeah why waste some of the few people alive who can help you that signifigantly. there are other orginzations such as WT who create effective channelers without killing thier people.

 

Plus like Cadsuane said if rand lives and wins, the way he is acting it would be almost as bad as if the DO won. Because he is enforcing strict polocies and has absolute power and is a heartless maniac. So no that doesn't absolve him of his actions. If he wins he'll have lasting negavtive effect on the world. 

 

 

Perrin187, the White Tower has a very long process which takes about 10-20 years for a woman to become a Aes Sedai. They currently have numbers of about 800-1000 correct? They have been there for a good 2800 years. The Asha'man have a short but sweet process, which involves in-depth training of skills they will actually use very quickly. The Asha'man have been there a few months. The Asha'man have 1000 in numbers, each of which is a very very dangerous weapon, where as the Aes Sedai cannot do anything in regular war (by regular I mean man vs man war). Also, Rand can go to every corner of the world by traveling and recruit some more, and while there is not an endless supply, there is a very large supply. He is enforcing strict policies, because he has about 5 months until total hell breaks loose (literally) and starts slaughtering everyone. If it wasnt for his strict policies, then he would be unable to weld the world together to stand against it. He has delegated power, his Stewards more or less control the countries he has conquered. As for a maniac, yes he is, but a fully functional maniac. A negative lasting effect on the world if he wins? First of all, if he wins the world will survive. Secondly, he has started schools in major cities, which are already showing many useful inventions. So how is starting schools and a still living world negative effects?

[Mr Ares]

Actually Mr Ares they gather close to SG.

How close must one be to be counted as there? They are not standing on the summit, but they are close enough to be counted as there. At the foot of SG, more or less.

 

Well if we are talking insanity again... Then mat speaking the old tounge and then not being able to control it/not remembering it is just as big of a "sign" of "insanity" as argueing with a voice in your head.

No it isn't. It is a strange phenomenon, but not madness. And even if it was, it is a completely different form to Rand's.

So yes, he does possess some of the symptoms that Rand has.

No, he possesses completely different symptoms.

Unless we decide that alot of the stuff on Rand isnt symptons on insanity but merely apart of the Wheel Of Time world

Why would we accept something so absurd? Mat's case is very different to Rand's, therefore the one doesn't reflect on the other. One can be mad, or both, but if they are then they are different forms. It is illogical to say that if one thing counts as madness, it therefore follows that something completely different also counts.

 

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that I started hearing voices in my head (not mine) telling me to murder everyone, and you started talking French, even though you had never learnt anything much beyond bonjour. I get diagnosed as a schizophrenic, you get diagnosed as odd. I get sectioned, you get a lot of papers written about you by baffled scientists. The two are completely different.

 

its WOT world, and if you're going to compare one, like Rand hearing LTT(Dragon-Dragon Reborn) to our world then you might as well compare Mat speaking a different language/tongue or Perrin talking too wolves. Basically you might as well say they are all insane.

No, you might as well not say anything as ridiculous as that. All three have very different "conditions" with very different "symptoms". You might call a paranoid schizophrenic insane, but not someone whose only problem was appendicitis. Appendicitis is not insanity. So saying If Rand is one thing, then you might as well say that Perrin and Mat with their completely different conditions are the same thing makes no sense at all.

[OptimusPrime]

Tell you what Optimus, i for one will not argue about Rand sanity or insanity if you can point out in the book this part of the blurb:-

In Shayol Ghul the Forsaken join together to destroy the Dragon.

 

Im not looking that up because it has absoultely nothing to do with this discussion. Im not going to try proving a point by looking up stuff that sheds no light on the situation. Its like asking me to find what page in TGH Mat blew the Horn on to prove that Rand is mad. Completely unrelated. And, as I guessed, you even ignore the book summaries. Well done, you have just discovered a new level of ignorance. We should think of a third name for you.

[a pale tanned lover]

How close must one be to be counted as there? They are not standing on the summit, but they are close enough to be counted as there. At the foot of SG, more or less.

The blurb that i was referring to has them as being in SG, not close too, or almost at. You referred to them being at SG not near or close.

No, you might as well not say anything as ridiculous as that. All three have very different "conditions" with very different "symptoms". You might call a paranoid schizophrenic insane, but not someone whose only problem was appendicitis. Appendicitis is not insanity. So saying If Rand is one thing, then you might as well say that Perrin and Mat with their completely different conditions are the same thing makes no sense at all.

As you well know i don't think Rand is insane my point is valid from what i believe. Trying to belittle it is ridiculous.

[a pale tanned lover]

Tell you what Optimus, i for one will not argue about Rand sanity or insanity if you can point out in the book this part of the blurb:-

In Shayol Ghul the Forsaken join together to destroy the Dragon.

 

Im not looking that up because it has absoultely nothing to do with this discussion. Im not going to try proving a point by looking up stuff that sheds no light on the situation. Its like asking me to find what page in TGH Mat blew the Horn on to prove that Rand is mad. Completely unrelated. And, as I guessed, you even ignore the book summaries. Well done, you have just discovered a new level of ignorance. We should think of a third name for you.

 

Well you brought up evidence to back up your theory. If your going to use the blurb to state an opinion then you should back it up, if not then don't bring up things you don't want to discuss.