If Rand hearing voices makes him insane is Mat crazy too?

[Paladin]

 

II was thinking about the Rand is Mad debate.

 

Rand is considered to be insane because he hears LTT speaking in his head. And has memories from LTT's life drifting into his.

Well that coupled with crippling grief a lack of self preservation and a few other things that I don’t want to go into right now but it got me thinking.

 

Mat has some things in common with him.

 

Long before he goes to visit Finnland (which is not so bad. honestly no matter what the Swedish say). Mat starts speaking in the Old Tongue ("Carai al Elisande....") and there is a distinct case of an old life drifting through into his consciousness when he is being Healed in the White Tower ("I am no Aes Sedai meat. ...."). And then he starts speaking old tongue while playing cards with a couple of Tarien lordlings (" Light burn my bones to ash"). In Mat it is considered the old blood. Rand has similar symptoms, and that is held up as solid proof that he is nuts. I am not saying that Mat hears voices but it makes me wonder. There is evidence in the books that to my mind at least prove that Mat has past lives influencing his current one.

 

Are the memories that float through to Rand mind (stealing fruit from a palace garden, Ilenya’s face, learning to draw etc.) not the same thing that Mat experiences. Again this is before the Ter’Angreal.

 

Now if I started speaking Latin while playing a game of poker with some buddies or started quoting Roman war cries despite the fact that I have never had any inclination or opportunity to learn the language or I started commanding a battle against the Gauls as a Roman general while I have a fever.

My buddies would be suggesting brain chemistry altering medication.

 

No I wonder if Rand is able to hear or interact with his past life on a more direct level because is TDR or because he is bound to the Horn. 

 

I’m not saying he isn’t crazy, I’m not saying that Rand is completely sane. But I am saying that a lot of the “proof” that Rand is insane can be applied to Mat. Not to mention the big guy who speaks to the animals, Of course he’s not insane.

 

Any thoughts?

 

[OptimusPrime]

Mat was given his memories by the Finns, a deliberate effort on their part, because they knew he would be the "Son of Battles." Rand "develops" Lews Therin over time. Rand develops Lews Therin over time and although Lews Therin has helped Rand on the odd occasion, the times when Lews Therin takes over make Rand extremely vulnerable. Mat doesnt have any drawbacks from his memories. Rand does; more and more he acts like Lews Therin because their minds arent as seperate as they should be.

[Paladin]

I'm Talking about before Mat goes through the portal in Rhudein (spelling).

 

Mat uses the Manetheren battle cry "Carai al Elisande" when they encounter a group of Trollocks on the way to Shadar Logoth. Book 1 TEoTW

 

While Mat is being healed by the AS he speaks the Old Tongue, he is basically being interrupted by while he is commanding a battle. If memory serves he is ordering the cavalry to advance.

And when Egwane asks one of the AS what he was saying she translates "I am no Aes Sedai meat" release me etc. Book 3 TDR

 

In the Fires of Heaven before the memorable "Bubble of evil" that makes Rands reflections, Perrin's Axe and Mats playing cards come to life he speaks the old tongue in thought "Light burn my bones to ash" One of his poker buddies comments on it and makes a partial translation.

 

This all happens before he meets the Finns.

 

 

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Moiraine said the old blood runs strong in the Two Rivers. Others of the Emond Fielders noted that they felt as if they should know what the words meant as well. Its not madness or anything similar to Rands situation.

[Wesley_O]

I personally have never believed Rand was going/ is mad. Also recently I've been thinking the same thing about Mat. The only reason people take it for Rand going mad is because he can channel and thus this makes him crazy. But if Mat was having this happen to him and he could channel people would also consider him mad. No, I believe that LTT is a mind trapped inside Rands head. This is how I believe TG will end. Somehow LTT will be killed and not Rand, thus the Dragon's blood is shed and Rand is still alive.

[Perrin 187]

Rand is going mad. If you don't believe it then you haven't been paying close attention. He talks and mumbles to himself about things that don't make much sense,(He stays up for nights recounting things, the woman that have died under him, throwing Perrin across a room and coming close to killing him). He hears the voice of a deraigned lunatic in his head. Callandor help speed it up,(but he was crazy even before that). Suffers from an extremely severe case of paranoia. Not to mention Rand is a ruthless dictator. 

 

Rand is a nutcase and if in our world would most likely be admitted to an asylum for schizophriena.

 

Mat doesn't hear voices and got his memories from the finns. Sure he mumbles things in the old tongue, but atleast for the most part it is related to the conversation he is having,and isn't just some random spasm like LTT and Rand. If he is insane then it is artfical.

 

I look at it this way. Who would have the higher chance of randomly killing people. Mat or Rand. I'd say Rand.

[draconian]

Suffers from an extremely severe case of paranoia. Not to mention Rand is a ruthless dictator. 

multiple factions have been excuting a massive conspiracy  for 3000 year to kill control or capture rand and he shouldnt be paranoia? :o i dont think so

 

Rand is a ruthless dictator really to whom? maybe people who cant see beyond anything but there own selfish want

 

[Perrin 187]

Suffers from an extremely severe case of paranoia. Not to mention Rand is a ruthless dictator. 

multiple factions have been excuting a massive conspiracy  for 3000 year to kill control or capture rand and he shouldnt be paranoia? :o i dont think so

 

Rand is a ruthless dictator really to whom? maybe people who cant see beyond anything but there own selfish want

 

Exactly, being the dragon reborn isn't a healthy work enviroment. He may have a right to be paranoid but it isn't healthy for his psyche.

 

Rand is an absolute monarch who conquers countries and appoints his own heads of state and destroys any who threaten him, many happen to be darkfriends, other are nobles that Rand doesn't like and they don't like Rand. He rules with an iron fist.

 

Rand suffers what alot of dictators through the centuries have, mental instabilty.

 

 

 

 

[Phariah]

Suffers from an extremely severe case of paranoia. Not to mention Rand is a ruthless dictator. 

multiple factions have been excuting a massive conspiracy  for 3000 year to kill control or capture rand and he shouldnt be paranoia? :o i dont think so

 

Rand is a ruthless dictator really to whom? maybe people who cant see beyond anything but there own selfish want

 

Exactly, being the dragon reborn isn't a healthy work enviroment. He may have a right to be paranoid but it isn't healthy for his psyche.

 

Rand is an absolute monarch who conquers countries and appoints his own heads of state and destroys any who threaten him, many happen to be darkfriends, other are nobles that Rand doesn't like and they don't like Rand. He rules with an iron fist.

 

Rand suffers what alot of dictators through the centuries have, mental instabilty.

 

 

 

 

um... Rand is a ruthless dictator? absolute monarch?

he has appointed stewards because he does not want to rule, being Dragon Reborn is enough. he does not have time to debate or argue with selfish nobles TG is coming and he wants men to stop killing men to have some type of peace to organize, while the nobles would be happy to kill for a square yard of land and a wooden nickel. he had a truce made w/ the rebels in Tear, he wants to make a truce w/ Seanchan.

he is so ruthless he cares that 2 boys in Tear get fed, that Tear sends its grains to feed people in Cairhein and Illian, he is so much of a despot that he sends men to stop the chaos in Arad Doman ( the pillaging, the raping , the killing ), so evil as to cut taxes on the peasants / farmers, to make sure laws are balanced for all and not exclude the nobles from justice

 

he is so insane that he can see this while the sane nobles can't ?

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Very well put Phariah.

[Balefire to da face!]

Just hearing voices isn't a definition of insanity. I've heard voices before, and chances are that most of you have, too.

 

As others have already given examples of, though, functionally Rand's "voices" have, quite frankly, driven him to the edge of disfunctionality. Mat's voices have not even come close to doing that.

 

I think that's the important thing. More then where the voices are coming from or what they are saying, how are they impacting the men's lives? In Mat's case, the worst seems to be that occasionally he gets a little drifty. In Rand's case....god, where to even start. He bugs out at the most vital times, the voice in his head(who, despite a rare helpful tip here and there, is as disfunctionally insane as they come) has nearly taken over several times, his reactions are so messed up that it's hard to tell at this point if it's simply a lack of mental capacity to process things reasonably or just the fact that he's been ****ed with by so many so often.

 

Rand is losing it. I wouldn't go so far as to say he is mad because there is a core of reason there holding it together, but he's really teetering on the edge. Also, it should be noted that in Rand's case we know for a fact that his "hardware" has and is being damaged. It's not just a case of memories being crammed into the brain, he has a physical taint that is detereorating his mind and body. Mat is no where near mad. He just has a ton of info crammed into his head that he can't process as solely his own. It causes a little confusion, but nothing more, really.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Just hearing voices isn't a definition of insanity. I've heard voices before, and chances are that most of you have, too.

 

As others have already given examples of, though, functionally Rand's "voices" have, quite frankly, driven him to the edge of disfunctionality. Mat's voices have not even come close to doing that.

 

I think that's the important thing. More then where the voices are coming from or what they are saying, how are they impacting the men's lives? In Mat's case, the worst seems to be that occasionally he gets a little drifty. In Rand's case....god, where to even start. He bugs out at the most vital times, the voice in his head(who, despite a rare helpful tip here and there, is as disfunctionally insane as they come) has nearly taken over several times, his reactions are so messed up that it's hard to tell at this point if it's simply a lack of mental capacity to process things reasonably or just the fact that he's been ****ed with by so many so often.

 

Rand is losing it. I wouldn't go so far as to say he is mad because there is a core of reason there holding it together, but he's really teetering on the edge. Also, it should be noted that in Rand's case we know for a fact that his "hardware" has and is being damaged. It's not just a case of memories being crammed into the brain, he has a physical taint that is detereorating his mind and body. Mat is no where near mad. He just has a ton of info crammed into his head that he can't process as solely his own. It causes a little confusion, but nothing more, really.

 

If by hearing voices you mean thinking I hear other people inside my mind speaking, then no, I do not hear voices. If you mean an inner monologue or talking to myself in my mind, then yes. Also, Mat doesn't hear voices, he just has dead men's memories stuffed inside the empty parts of his own memory. There has never been a time in which a man has spoken in Mat's head. He does however remember men speaking and directing battles and dozens of other things.

[Paladin]

Personally I think that the Taint has tainted a lot of peoples perception of Rand. - no pun intended -

 

He Channels and Channeling makes men go crazy. So Rand has to be nuts.

 

Now if Mat another man in his early twenties, who has the occasional past life drifting through his head, suddenly found himself able to channel, expected to save the world,  responsible (at least in his own mind) for the death of dozens of women, wounded, beaten, kept in a box for days, and generally being very very hard used.

 

How "sane" would he be.

 

I;m not Saying that the taint has had no effect on Rand.

I am not saying that Rand is completely sane.

What I am saying is I do not believe that he is showing Taint induced madness.

 

He is as insane as anyone else could be if they had been through the same experiences.

 

He is paraniod becuase they are out to get him.

He has a temper problem because he is expected to save the world and he has to do things that he doesnt like doing but he still has to. So he feels guilt, frustration and anger, both at the people who are to selfish and short sighted to help him out and at himself for needing to use people but having no choice. 

 

We know that Rand feels the same as the Shienarans with regards to women "better to take a wound from a knife than to hurt a woman" and suddenly he is, in his own mind at least, resposible for the deaths of dozens of women.

he cannot deal with the guilt because he is a young sheepherder.

 

not to mention that he has a crazy guy talking in his head.

 

Under the same circumstances I would be in a prozac induced stupor.

[OptimusPrime]

TGS SPOILER

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look at Jasons review of TGS. He said it focuses on Rand as he goes deeper into depression and insanity. Deeper, hinting that it was already there.

[Phariah]

ok that beat me damn solid facts, guess Rand is insane :(

 

[OptimusPrime]

Just realized I put a spoiler out there just then without giving warning. Apologies, I will edit. Sorry Phariah.

[a pale tanned lover]

Actually that statement is just his perception of events and how he words it do not give concrete evidence Optimus Prime.

[OptimusPrime]

Actually that statement is just his perception of events and how he words it do not give concrete evidence Optimus Prime.

 

You'd probably say the same thing even if the blurb tells of Rands insanity. In fact, Im sure one of them does say that Rand and the Ashaman are succumbing to the effects of the Taint-MADNESS. Of course, one way or another that will be discarded I bet, because it goes against your personal belief APTL.

[Rhalurn]

Right firstly: Rand isn't insane. Insane is Lews Therin, incomprehensible muttering and making no real sense. Yeah Rand is disturbed, he has been channeling tainted saidin for years, has been severely injured and constantly suffering. He has been given immense responsibility, which for example, Elaine has been trained throughout her childhood to deal with (for one nation). He has to deal with what, four/five nations? Also he knows he has to expand his reign else TG is doomed.

 

Secondly, Matt's situation is so different to Rand it is suprising that he is compared to him. Matt has the blood of Manetheren (sp) running thickly through his veins. Matt suffered from fain's dagger and then had his memory filled with past lifes. A great storyline and a great character, but he doesn't have a general who went insane telling him to suck on horseshoes for luck before battle. He has convenient memories of every battle his 'soul' ever had. Rand has been using tainted saidin for years, got some insane fool blabbering at him and now has 4 women in his head and a forsaken. He still isn't insane, but he has managed to hold on to sanity in my opinion.

[OptimusPrime]

Right firstly: Rand isn't insane. Insane is Lews Therin, incomprehensible muttering and making no real sense

 

And guess who Rand acts like nowadays? Guess who Rand cant tell the difference between half the time. If you had someone elses memories and started acting in accordance with those new memories and not your own, you would be called insane. Those memories affect Rands judgement. I cant believe you say he isnt insane, and then mention that hes been channeling through the Taint as if that makes him disturbed and not insane, when the books supply several times where the Taint sometimes makes people act very out of character. Rand is the best example we have of the wildness of the mind, which is something the Taint encourages. If I ever experienced wildness of the mind, no matter how coherent my thoughts were the rest of the time I would say I was mentally ill, which is the modern day term for insane, mad.

 

Hey, Im Rand, I lose control of myself and there have been times where I dont know if Im me or the guy in my head, but that doesnt mean Im insane.

[Perrin 187]

 

um... Rand is a ruthless dictator? absolute monarch?

he has appointed stewards because he does not want to rule, being Dragon Reborn is enough. he does not have time to debate or argue with selfish nobles TG is coming and he wants men to stop killing men to have some type of peace to organize, while the nobles would be happy to kill for a square yard of land and a wooden nickel. he had a truce made w/ the rebels in Tear, he wants to make a truce w/ Seanchan.

he is so ruthless he cares that 2 boys in Tear get fed, that Tear sends its grains to feed people in Cairhein and Illian, he is so much of a despot that he sends men to stop the chaos in Arad Doman ( the pillaging, the raping , the killing ), so evil as to cut taxes on the peasants / farmers, to make sure laws are balanced for all and not exclude the nobles from justice

 

he is so insane that he can see this while the sane nobles can't ?

 

Julius Ceaser had the love of the mob would you call him a benevolent ruler? No you wouldn't.

 

I know Rand gives a damn about the lower classes, because he's been there. He is still dictator and every dictator that ever lived has been ruthless. Rand wouldn't have cared to treat those aes sedai that captured him as the next thing to darkfriends. Though many desevered that kind of treatment, would you call him a benevolent ruler than. Have you read about the training methods he has enforce into the black tower. Rand crushes countries and force them under his rule. Whatever Rands says goes or you are punished. He is a dictator straight and simple. One preparing for TG but one none the less.

 

By the way, I never said the nobles under him were sane or nice people. Nobles tend to be narcissistic and selfish, many are real headcases in their own right.

 

The other poster hear who said they have heard voices too. Have you heard the voice of a madman who masscred his entire family and all of his friends, and has influenced your behaviors in a very severe way. Then I would suggest you get help.

 

Rand is a nutcase straight and simple.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Rhalurn, small correction. Mat doesn't have his past lives in his head, those are the memories of the men that went through either the doorway in Tear or the Tower of Ghenjei. The Finns just stuffed him full of the memories they were done with, so now he is full of memories of visitors of the Finns, which just happen to have a whole assload of battles.

[Braus]

Actually that statement is just his perception of events and how he words it do not give concrete evidence Optimus Prime.

 

You'd probably say the same thing even if the blurb tells of Rands insanity. In fact, Im sure one of them does say that Rand and the Ashaman are succumbing to the effects of the Taint-MADNESS. Of course, one way or another that will be discarded I bet, because it goes against your personal belief APTL.

 

Thats not the way to argue really.

 

Have you read TGS? It is as said a review by a person, a very thin mostly spoilerless review. You cant base anything on it when it comes to Rand's sanity. You can take the word though and read that Rand isnt feeling that well.

 

Nowhere it has been clear that Rand is Insane imo. The greatness of WOT is that you get sooo many Point of Views and so much information, which makes the world abit more alive. But all of the information isnt right, far from it.

[Perrin 187]

I'd just like to say rand is my fifth favorite character, after moriane. I don't mind him being a monarch, like most rulers in randland. Him being very mentally unstable gives him depth and makes him intersting. My only real problem with him, is his love square but that has nothing to do with this thread.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

I'd just like to say rand is my fifth favorite character, after moriane. I don't mind him being a monarch, like most rulers in randland. Him being very mentally unstable gives him depth and makes him intersting. My only real problem with him, is his love square but that has nothing to do with this thread.

 

What kind of list is that with Moiraine at #4 and Rand at #5 O.o?