two river rebellion

[Luckers]

The strongest things I see about the big, curly-haired fellow are a wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him.

 

[tEotW-15-Strangers and Friends]

[Thorum]

The first part, about the spouses becoming co-rulers. The Min-thing could be related to Faile being Queen, with Perrin "husband to the queen"

[Luckers]

"As my wife, how could you not be Queen? We are Malkieri here, not southlanders. You were crowned in the Seven Towers at the same time we exchanged rings."

 

It's about Malkier, admittedly, and in the rings, but he doesn't say 'we're malkieri, of course your queen'. He says 'we're malkieri, not southlanders'. The implication is fairly clear.

 

Though if she's queen of Saldaea and he's lord of the Two Rivers and Ghealdean blurring would naturally occur anyway. Consorts are perople with no power, this would be a union of equals in power and authority. As such their realms would blend.

[Perrin 187]

The borderlands have co-rulers, the first ruler of Saldaea was a king, so historically we know of no gender difference. I'd would say they would both have equal rule. But we will find out in the next books atleast.

[Mr Ares]

And that still leaves the current Civil War ;D

And Ghealdan's power vacuum, in the absence of Prophet and Queen.

I was discussing the situation in Cairhien, not in Ghealdan.

I know. My point was that Perrin already faced the same problems as Elayne in territories already under his control. Taking over Elayne's territories will only increase the number of problems, as he will have to deal with problems like bandits, and with Elayne herself.

 

If I read your answer correctly, you believe Perrin will reign a country which is now in two parts? One Ghealdan/Two Rivers; the other Saldaea?

No, I don't think he will remain as ruler of Ghealdan in the long term.

 

Also, don't forget the Blight should be gone after Tarmon Gaidon (or at least a lot calmer), so Perrin will have a larger army than Elayne.

That depends on who suffers greater losses in TG. Also, larger armies do not necessarily convert to victories. Elayne could still prove victorious in any conflict that broke out.

 

He's already siezed parts of Andor--not intentionally, but because they needed him and Andor wasn't doing anything about it. The same continues. Elayne's concerns ignore the far west, the only reason she'd pay it attention is the "rebellion". That is Perrin's reason. He has a strong sense of duty and he will follow through on it.

 

That being said the issue of him siezing part of Andor to my mind will be incidental. He will not actively do so, he'll just do what he must and that part of Andor will end up under his control. And by the time Elayne can do anything about it it will be too late.

So the "rebellion" is her only interest in the west? And she will not take a greater interest in the event of that same rebellion spreading? Perrin took control of a province that was only nominally part of Andor, but in this instance he would be taking regions that were part of Andor in more than just name. And not just administering them, as he is doing in the TR - which remains no less a part of Andor than it was before - but actually annexing them to Saldaea. That's quite different to anything he's done so far. That part of Andor may end up under his control, but that doesn't mean he needs to start reshaping international borders. He could simply take over Andoran territories. And he already has problems of his own in Ghealdan, and Saldaea is sure to need his help in the future. These places are already tied to him, so his duty lies first and foremost with them, not in overreaching himself to start saving all and sundry.

 

Actually he probably won't have to "seize" anything. The placement of the borderlanders and the upcoming issues means that his army will be in place to face Tarmon Gai'don from that part of Andor. He will simply do what he must, and as a result end up in charge of Andoran forces from the area. Time and situational nessecity will follow from there.

 

No one wants such an outcome. Don't mean it won't happen, or that its unlikely.

But taking over those regions to help them face TG does not automatically lead to them becoming part of Saldaea. Being in charge of Andoran forces needn't mean anything beyond leading Andoran forces.

 

The situation in the west won't escalate as far as she percieves--it's not like Perrin's a conquerer, he won't be out subdueing Andoran cities. He'll take charge when he thinks he must and that will lead to his control of the area, but it won't be such that she'll feel the need to divert her attention anytime soon. By the time she will... sorry, too late.

Once he starts extending the territory he controls, she has far better reason to turn her attention out that far. To date, she has had to concern herself with winning the throne, which she has now done. Now she needs to prepare for TG, which requires that she raise an army - and there are people in the west who could serve. Also, Perrin taking away chunks of her country makes her look weaker. Weaker still if they are later taken from Andor altogether. She cannot afford to be perceived as a weak ruler, so she will need to do something to stop it. The first town of city he takes could be enough to convince her to act against the rebellion, before it gets out of hand.

 

He won't be better place, he'll simply be placed. He'll have the same issues as Elayne, if not more. And like Elayne he won't be able to ignore them in order to make war.

If he is placed and she isn't, then he is better placed. And he will have far more to deal with, and thus she can recover first.

 

Yes, but by the time she's secure enough for this, he'll be too.

But he doesn't want a war, and has no reason to fight for these regions against there lawful ruler. Not when he has his own responsibilities, and no reason to think Elayne will do a bad job.

 

if this all works out i think there would be one deciding factor in Perrin's favor.... Morgase ;)

she has seen him do what he must for his people, she has seen who Faile is while they were Gaishan, she know both of them well and i would guess she would support them saying something like" we left them to fend for themselves. we were not good rulers to them ,and this young man saved them and has helped them grow. this is his land daughter he is a just man as is his lady, let them tend it" ::) 8)

She also never gave up any Andoran territory, something which has rubbed off on her daughter. Perrin being a good man, a just man is all well and good, but not if it harms Andor politically or economically. She has her country and her daughter to think of, as well as her former subjects. Morgase was unable to do anything for these people. So she might counsel Elayne to do differently, but that is a far cry from encouraging her to give up that land.

 

Though if she's queen of Saldaea and he's lord of the Two Rivers and Ghealdean blurring would naturally occur anyway. Consorts are perople with no power, this would be a union of equals in power and authority. As such their realms would blend.

Aside from the fact that he need not remain ruler of Ghealdan after TG, it is also quite a jump to say that a union between two people, equal in authority automatically means that their realms blend. They can remain politically distinct. Indeed, given the differences in Ghealdanin and Saldaean cultures, and the distances that separate them, convincing them to unify would not necessarily find favour with anyone - national pride would get in the way, as well as anyone who thought their power would be threatened by such a merger. I could point out, for example, the lag between the Union of the Thrones, and the act of Union in British history - more than a hundred years, in which England and Scotland had the same King or Queen, but different Parliaments. Or Hanover and the UK always being politically distinct, under Georges I-IV and William IV, before Queen Victoria took the throne in Britian and her uncle became King of Hanover. Even if Perrin did take over those Andoran territories, and kept hold of Ghealdan after TG, it is still quite a jump to say that they will be incorporated into one big country with Saldaea. Because history has several examples of different countries sharing the same ruler without long term unification. That sort of thing doesn't just happen, people make it happen.

[Luckers]

So the "rebellion" is her only interest in the west? And she will not take a greater interest in the event of that same rebellion spreading? Perrin took control of a province that was only nominally part of Andor, but in this instance he would be taking regions that were part of Andor in more than just name. And not just administering them, as he is doing in the TR - which remains no less a part of Andor than it was before - but actually annexing them to Saldaea. That's quite different to anything he's done so far. That part of Andor may end up under his control, but that doesn't mean he needs to start reshaping international borders. He could simply take over Andoran territories. And he already has problems of his own in Ghealdan, and Saldaea is sure to need his help in the future. These places are already tied to him, so his duty lies first and foremost with them, not in overreaching himself to start saving all and sundry.

 

I think your confusing what I'm suggesting. I'm saying that Andor west of Whitebridge will end up under his control--which pretty much means Baerlon, the mining villiages of the Mountains of the Mist and three or four villiages like Emmonds Field. Moreover I don't see him intentionally annexing these areas--it will come about simply through progression of events. Tarmon Gai'don will begin and he will be the strongest most organised force in the region, so it'll be him that marshels and fields them.

 

I doubt he'll even claim them after the Last Battle. It'll just be that Elayne will be too pre-occupied, and won't have the resources to answer their needs in the aftermath of Tarmon Gai'don, and assist them with the upcoming famine. Perrin, who's initial powerbase is the Two Rives, will.

 

But taking over those regions to help them face TG does not automatically lead to them becoming part of Saldaea. Being in charge of Andoran forces needn't mean anything beyond leading Andoran forces.

 

I never said they'd become part of Saldaea. They'll follow Lord Perrin because he's there to lead them, just as Saldaea will, and the TR and Ghealdean have.

 

Once he starts extending the territory he controls, she has far better reason to turn her attention out that far. To date, she has had to concern herself with winning the throne, which she has now done. Now she needs to prepare for TG, which requires that she raise an army - and there are people in the west who could serve. Also, Perrin taking away chunks of her country makes her look weaker. Weaker still if they are later taken from Andor altogether. She cannot afford to be perceived as a weak ruler, so she will need to do something to stop it. The first town of city he takes could be enough to convince her to act against the rebellion, before it gets out of hand.

 

I never said she'd like it Ares, but over-all claiming Cairhein and dealing with the problems of the areas already under her control is more important. But again your assuming he'll be 'taking' cities. (or city. Baerlon's the only one in that region). Does that really seem in Perrin's nature to you?

 

He will not be annexing towns. He will be doing what's nessasary to face Tarmon Gai'don, and as a result the towns will end up as a part of his new nation, not hers. Sure, if he openly declared rebellion against the Lion Throne she might need to respond, but he won't be doing that.

 

If he is placed and she isn't, then he is better placed. And he will have far more to deal with, and thus she can recover first.

 

Dude, what? I simply meant he's situated in the area. Both will be facing problems after Tarmon Gai'don. There will be a famine, not to mention the loss of life in the Last Battle, and the opportunists that such situations bring out of the woodwork. Simply existing will pre-occupy both of them too much for war. Perrin will end up with those regions because he is situated at the heart of them, and because he has the sense of duty to aid them in this crisis.

 

And by the time Elayne has stablized things enough to concider war, so will have Perrin, and by then he will have the stronger nation, thus she will not be able to force him.

 

But he doesn't want a war, and has no reason to fight for these regions against there lawful ruler. Not when he has his own responsibilities, and no reason to think Elayne will do a bad job.

 

The primrary reason for him asserting control in these areas is that Elayne doesn't have control in them. There has been no Queen's Guard beyond Whitebridge in decades. In the aftermath of TG she definately will not have the resources to do so.

 

No one said anything about Perrin wanting to fight a war, or conquer Andor. He will simply act to aid people in need--and by the time Elayne is in a position to protest to that subtle re-distribution of power it will be too late.

 

 

 

You seem to be suggesting Perrin will take these areas by force and subdue them into his new Empire thus arising Elayne's wrath. I don't see that as remotely possible.

 

 

[Thorum]

That still gives the problem of a divided country: Two Rivers/Ghealdan (or 2 Rivers alone, acc to MrAres) on the one hand, and Saldaea on the other.

With Randland technology, this is impossible.

 

Also, the connection doesn't need to go through Baerlon. It could go through Eastern Almoth. There are already immigrants from there in the Two Rivers. Or the Hannover/England thing could happen (or UK/Canada/Australia ;D). For this connection to grow naturally before TG, I think it is too late by now. Maybe after...

 

I don't believe in Elayne wanting a war in her husbands' place of birth any more than Perrin wants it. Perrin having a better army than Elayne is only part of this ;D.

 

What about the annexation of the area between Saldaea and Baerlon? Any problems there?

[Mr Ares]

I think your confusing what I'm suggesting.

No, I understand what you're saying - that he will end up with these territories under his control, and them separated from Andor. Not through military conquest, but in trying to help them.

Moreover I don't see him intentionally annexing these areas--it will come about simply through progression of events. Tarmon Gai'don will begin and he will be the strongest most organised force in the region, so it'll be him that marshels and fields them.

The result is the same, and it is not a result Elayne will stand for. Him leading these forces through TG is one thing, they needn't be removed from Andoran control for that. The point is after that, they will not just become parts of Perrin's new empire, not unless someone makes them a part.They can be parts of Andor temporarily run by Perrin, and it need not go any further than that, not if Perrin doesn't want to provoke a war.

 

I doubt he'll even claim them after the Last Battle. It'll just be that Elayne will be too pre-occupied, and won't have the resources to answer their needs in the aftermath of Tarmon Gai'don, and assist them with the upcoming famine. Perrin, who's initial powerbase is the Two Rives, will.

My point is, even once the famine is dealt with, he can transfer them back to Elayne. Humanitarian aid is one thing, but it need not result in border changes.

 

I never said they'd become part of Saldaea. They'll follow Lord Perrin because he's there to lead them, just as Saldaea will, and the TR and Ghealdean have.

Essentially, they will, according to your suggestion. It will not just be short term assistance until Elayne can retake control, which would likely be more to Perrin's taste.

 

I never said she'd like it Ares, but over-all claiming Cairhein and dealing with the problems of the areas already under her control is more important. But again your assuming he'll be 'taking' cities. (or city. Baerlon's the only one in that region). Does that really seem in Perrin's nature to you?

 

He will not be annexing towns.

He might be taking them with force, but how do you think it will look to Elayne? Exactly like that. Him annexing towns. His rebellion spreading. And she will need to stop it. If Perrin starts taking over, he will be helping out for the best of reasons, but Elayne will see his control of her country spreading. She will need to act against that. It is far more important than Cairhien. And Perrin also has something more important to do, dealing with the problems in areas he already controls. If Elayne tries to retake those areas, why would he fight her?

He will be doing what's nessasary to face Tarmon Gai'don, and as a result the towns will end up as a part of his new nation, not hers.

Exactly - annexed. Not by force, but annexed nonetheless. My disagreement is that I do not see him forging a new nation, intentionally or by accident.

Sure, if he openly declared rebellion against the Lion Throne she might need to respond, but he won't be doing that.

He won't need to openly declare rebellion - by raising his standard, he already has, even without intending to. And it is important for Elayne to act against that. And if she sent her forces out there to take over, it is not in Perrin's or anyones interest for him to fight, rather than simply give over the land for her to look after.

 

Both will be facing problems after Tarmon Gai'don.

And Perrin's could well be more extensive, even without him taking over some of Elayne's, an act that will cause problems of its own due to the friction it will cause with her.

Perrin will end up with those regions because he is situated at the heart of them, and because he has the sense of duty to aid them in this crisis.

Elayne also has a sense of duty, and the both of them are located on the periphery of the area. Ghealdan is to the south, the TR is off the beaten track, Caemlyn is to the east. If Perrin is in a position to expand his sphere of interest, so is Elayne.

 

And by the time Elayne has stablized things enough to concider war, so will have Perrin

But that assumes he does concider war, rather than simply backing down. He is not there to nation build, but to help these people survive. As to who has the stronger nation, it depends on avariety of factors - who stabilises first, who is hardest hit. Ghealdan might not be too pleased with him sticking around, so he might only be left with the TR and Saldaea.

 

The primrary reason for him asserting control in these areas is that Elayne doesn't have control in them.

Neither does he. Someone needs to expand control into that region, and it could be Elayne just as easily as Perrin.

In the aftermath of TG she definately will not have the resources to do so.

But Perrin will?

 

No one said anything about Perrin wanting to fight a war, or conquer Andor.

By taking control in these areas, he is provoking a war, whether he wants to or not. He is taking over parts of Andor. She will not stand for that. Which will most likely lead to war. Unless one of them backs down.

by the time Elayne is in a position to protest to that subtle re-distribution of power it will be too late.

She will protest as soon as she hears.

 

You seem to be suggesting Perrin will take these areas by force and subdue them into his new Empire thus arising Elayne's wrath.

No. He will take them, whether by force or not, and that alone will arouse Elayne's wrath. Even if he is acting for humanitarian reasons, he has already, to her way of thinking, raised his wolfhead standard and the banner of Manetheren in rebellion against the Lion Throne. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. If he tries to assert control in these regions, to help with famine, bandits, get them through TG, he is still taking control, even if not by force. That's enough for Elayne to act against him. He is either a rebel, as Lord Perrin, or an invader, as the King of Saldaea. That he isn't doesn't matter as much as that's how Elayne will see him. And if that's how Elayne sees him, that's how she will respond to him. Even if she personally didn't see him as such, her political opponents might, and thus she would need to deal with the problem rather than be thought of as a weak queen, as that would result in further problems. As an invader or a rebel, either way a threat to the Lion Throne. Thus, war. In effect, Perrin acting to help these people could lead to further bloodshed.

 

That still gives the problem of a divided country: Two Rivers/Ghealdan (or 2 Rivers alone, acc to MrAres) on the one hand, and Saldaea on the other.

Except it needn't be a divided country. See, for example, the Duke of Normandy and the King of England being one and the same following the Norman conquest. Normandy was still part of France, with the King as a French nobleman. Of course, this led to problems of its own - the Hundred Years War. But the TR as a part of Andor, with Perrin as the ruler of a separate country could work. Especially if the inheritance was divided amongst the heirs (the TR going to a second child, for example).

 

Also, the connection doesn't need to go through Baerlon. It could go through Eastern Almoth.

Theoretically, but this presents problems of its own. The unclaimed parts of the map are unclaimed for a reason - no-one is capable of enforcing a claim. They remain largely unpopulated. So you would need to extend your territory, and fill it with people, in the aftermath of the population decline (soon to cease, but will take a while to have the effects shaken off), the famine, and TG, as well as any other problems that arise - conflict with other nations, bandits, etc.

 

I don't believe in Elayne wanting a war in her husbands' place of birth any more than Perrin wants it.

She might not want it, she might need it. If Perrin starts taking away chunks of her country, how do you think she will react? Bearing in mind that it will not do her much good if people think she cannot protect them from foreign invaders, or run the country, etc.

 

What about the annexation of the area between Saldaea and Baerlon? Any problems there?

Well, anything north of Andor's borders isn't an act of war, although it might be seen as a prelude to invasion, possibly. The Caralin Grass is unclaimed, so it's up for grabs, for currently they don't have the manpower to keep it if they take it. So the problems are more logistical than political.

[Darkholme]

What about the fact that while Rand was talking to Min in EoTW she mentions seeing Mat with "a Ruby Dagger, A Red Eagle.....". Could this not also mean that Matt will bring back Manatheran? Since he is Prince of the Ravens now, do you not think Tuon would find this a great place to set up the new seat for whatever lands she controls?

[Thorum]

In the aftermath of TG she definately will not have the resources to do so.

But Perrin will?

The Blight will be gone ==> Saldaea will become an even richer state than it already is.

 

Quote from: Thorum on Today at 02:23:11 PM

That still gives the problem of a divided country: Two Rivers/Ghealdan (or 2 Rivers alone, acc to MrAres) on the one hand, and Saldaea on the other.

Except it needn't be a divided country. See, for example, the Duke of Normandy and the King of England being one and the same following the Norman conquest. Normandy was still part of France, with the King as a French nobleman. Of course, this led to problems of its own - the Hundred Years War. But the TR as a part of Andor, with Perrin as the ruler of a separate country could work. Especially if the inheritance was divided amongst the heirs (the TR going to a second child, for example).

THe main problem with this is the inaccessibility. This would depend on the good will of whoever rules in Baerlon.

[Luckers]

That still gives the problem of a divided country: Two Rivers/Ghealdan (or 2 Rivers alone, acc to MrAres) on the one hand, and Saldaea on the other.

With Randland technology, this is impossible.

 

Travelling does provide for this. However divided rule has worked before, and I think the population decline is going to be alleviated in the next few generations, and populating the Caralain Grass solves this. Hell, maybe Perrin will even offer the land for Seanchan settlement. Given their expansion is probably at an end they'll need it for the Corenne, and Perrin does have open communication with the Seanchan.

 

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Moreover I don't see him intentionally annexing these areas--it will come about simply through progression of events. Tarmon Gai'don will begin and he will be the strongest most organised force in the region, so it'll be him that marshels and fields them.

 

 

The result is the same, and it is not a result Elayne will stand for. Him leading these forces through TG is one thing, they needn't be removed from Andoran control for that. The point is after that, they will not just become parts of Perrin's new empire, not unless someone makes them a part.They can be parts of Andor temporarily run by Perrin, and it need not go any further than that, not if Perrin doesn't want to provoke a war.

 

It's actually the aftermath that i think will make them a part of Perrin's new nation. Perrin won't push the issue, he'll just be there and Elayne won't. She doesn't have the resources. So yes, they will at first be parts of Andor that Perrin temporarily runs--for a time. And by the time Elayne feels the need to re-assert her control they will simply be lands Perrin controls. That is the point of what I suggest. In effect yes, they will 'just become a part of Perrin's new empire'.

 

My point is, even once the famine is dealt with, he can transfer them back to Elayne. Humanitarian aid is one thing, but it need not result in border changes.

 

The border change would already be set by then. Just the same as the Andoran's remade the border when they moved into Murandy to face the Aes Sedai. It wasn't intentional, but it happened.

 

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I never said they'd become part of Saldaea. They'll follow Lord Perrin because he's there to lead them, just as Saldaea will, and the TR and Ghealdean have.

 

Essentially, they will, according to your suggestion. It will not just be short term assistance until Elayne can retake control, which would likely be more to Perrin's taste.

 

No, essentially they won't. Saldaea will be a part of Perrin's realm, but it won't be the defining aspect of that realm any more that Ghealdean will be. Perrin will be the defining aspect of that realm. Saldaea, Ghealdean and western Andor will simply be part of it.

 

But the idea is that it would, in Perrin's eyes, simply be short term assistance. He will do what's needful. The problem is that what's needful won't be all that short-term, and by the times these issues subside the new state of things will be locked in place.

 

He might be taking them with force, but how do you think it will look to Elayne? Exactly like that. Him annexing towns. His rebellion spreading. And she will need to stop it. If Perrin starts taking over, he will be helping out for the best of reasons, but Elayne will see his control of her country spreading. She will need to act against that. It is far more important than Cairhien. And Perrin also has something more important to do, dealing with the problems in areas he already controls. If Elayne tries to retake those areas, why would he fight her?

 

I don't think it will be much of anything to Elayne. He won't be occupying these towns, he'll be ensuring they have food, stopping bandits in the area. Nothing in what he'll be doing will quantify as rebellion, so she'll blithely continue with the light hand Andor has maintained in the west--because she will have her own concerns elsewhere, and by the time it becomes clear that these parts of her land answer to someone else Perrin's nation will be too strong.

 

I really don't think Elayne would start a war she would probably lose following such social calamity. She may not like it, but by that time it would be over.

 

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He will be doing what's nessasary to face Tarmon Gai'don, and as a result the towns will end up as a part of his new nation, not hers.

 

Exactly - annexed. Not by force, but annexed nonetheless. My disagreement is that I do not see him forging a new nation, intentionally or by accident.

 

To annex is to intentionally take something that doesn't belong to you. There is no such thing as accidental annexation.

 

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Sure, if he openly declared rebellion against the Lion Throne she might need to respond, but he won't be doing that.

 

He won't need to openly declare rebellion - by raising his standard, he already has, even without intending to. And it is important for Elayne to act against that. And if she sent her forces out there to take over, it is not in Perrin's or anyones interest for him to fight, rather than simply give over the land for her to look after.

 

He's sworn to the Seanchan he'd give up the Red Eagle. So, in what way will he be openly advertising his rebellion?

 

As for the last bit, if she sent forces out there Perrin would not fight. And he would give over the land. The point of my comments is that she won't, and that he will step in because of his sense of duty, and that as a result of his efforts to aid western Andor, western Andor will transfer their loyalty to him.

 

Again and again you suggest some form of overt subversion, which would bring Elayne's attention to the West. Why?

 

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Both will be facing problems after Tarmon Gai'don.

 

And Perrin's could well be more extensive, even without him taking over some of Elayne's, an act that will cause problems of its own due to the friction it will cause with her.

 

At that time there would be no friction since neither side would be aware that subversion of Elayne's people was occuring. Later yes, at that time, no.

 

And Perrin's homebase is in that area. No matter the degree of his issues he'll be aware of Baerlon's problems, and his sense of duty would compel him to help. The same cannot be said of Elayne.

 

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Perrin will end up with those regions because he is situated at the heart of them, and because he has the sense of duty to aid them in this crisis.

 

Elayne also has a sense of duty, and the both of them are located on the periphery of the area. Ghealdan is to the south, the TR is off the beaten track, Caemlyn is to the east. If Perrin is in a position to expand his sphere of interest, so is Elayne.

 

Elayne is in a position to expand her sphere of interest--but she is a political creature. Cairhein would draw her attention more than the west--which, keep in mind, she won't realise its being subverted.

 

Besides, Perrin's efforts would actually stop her from trying to help even if she chose to--why do what someone else is doing? It's not like him giving out food is threatening to her.

 

 

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And by the time Elayne has stablized things enough to concider war, so will have Perrin

 

But that assumes he does concider war, rather than simply backing down. He is not there to nation build, but to help these people survive. As to who has the stronger nation, it depends on avariety of factors - who stabilises first, who is hardest hit. Ghealdan might not be too pleased with him sticking around, so he might only be left with the TR and Saldaea.

 

Perrin is stern enough to do what needs to be done. By that time those people would be his people--he cared for them when times were roughest, Elayne did not. So yes, I do think that by the time Elayne chooses to complain about the situation Perrin will not give in.

 

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In the aftermath of TG she definately will not have the resources to do so.

 

But Perrin will?

 

In context that comment addressed how Andor has not had the power to assert influence west of Whitebridge for years, and that given the effects of the famine and the lawlessness and TG Elayne would not be able to suddenly reassert that influence.

 

But, to answer your question, western Andor is Perrin's powerbase. Of course he has more resources there than Elayne does.

 

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No one said anything about Perrin wanting to fight a war, or conquer Andor.

 

By taking control in these areas, he is provoking a war, whether he wants to or not. He is taking over parts of Andor. She will not stand for that. Which will most likely lead to war. Unless one of them backs down.

 

He will not be taking control of anything, he'll be helping a people in need. By the time people realise that's put him in charge it will be too late for war.

 

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by the time Elayne is in a position to protest to that subtle re-distribution of power it will be too late.

 

She will protest as soon as she hears.

 

Yes, I imagine she will. Of course by the time she hears it will all be irrelevant, and western Andor will be solidly in Perrin's hands.

 

 

 

Your problem Ares is that your thinking in blunt terms. Perrin will not be attempting to subvert Elayne's rule, and Elayne will not see it so. His efforts, intended only to help, will in fact subvert her rule, but Elayne will not realise that until its too late.

[Mr Ares]

Could this not also mean that Matt will bring back Manatheran?

Why bother?

Since he is Prince of the Ravens now, do you not think Tuon would find this a great place to set up the new seat for whatever lands she controls?

Not really. A little inconvenient. Why not use one of the cities she already has?

 

The Blight will be gone ==> Saldaea will become an even richer state than it already is.

They won't have the resources or time to exploit that by the time the crisis comes.

 

She doesn't have the resources.

Neither does Perrin.

And by the time Elayne feels the need to re-assert her control they will simply be lands Perrin controls.

They won't be under his control that long. She won't stand for it. The both of them will be stretched thin.

 

The border change would already be set by then. Just the same as the Andoran's remade the border when they moved into Murandy to face the Aes Sedai. It wasn't intentional, but it happened.

It happened because they made it happen. The Andorans took Murandian land. They didn't just wake up and find they'd moved the borders. They took advantage of an opportunity. You don't think they were unaware of what would happen if they stayed put in such numbers?

 

Essentially, they will, according to your suggestion. It will not just be short term assistance until Elayne can retake control, which would likely be more to Perrin's taste.

 

No, essentially they won't. Saldaea will be a part of Perrin's realm, but it won't be the defining aspect of that realm any more that Ghealdean will be. Perrin will be the defining aspect of that realm. Saldaea, Ghealdean and western Andor will simply be part of it.

Saldaea is the only sovereign nation left. Western Andor is part of a country, and Ghealdan has lost its independence. The King or Queen of Ghealdan is subordinate to Perrin, and Perrin is the King of Saldaea. They become client states or imperial provinces. Saldaea is left supreme.

 

But the idea is that it would, in Perrin's eyes, simply be short term assistance. He will do what's needful. The problem is that what's needful won't be all that short-term, and by the times these issues subside the new state of things will be locked in place.

From Perin's perspective, it would indeed be short term, but Elayne will not see it as such, she will see it as an affront to her authority. It will only be locked in if people lock it in. If Elayne refuses to act or if Perrin refuses to yield.

 

I don't think it will be much of anything to Elayne. He won't be occupying these towns, he'll be ensuring they have food, stopping bandits in the area. Nothing in what he'll be doing will quantify as rebellion,

He has already raised his standard in rebellion. Even the giving of food, it is usurping her authority. She will not react positively to it. She already knows these lands don't answer to her, her mother was none too pleased when she heard about the TR, but was unable to act, and Elayne thinks very highly of her mother, and her refusal to give up any Andoran soil. A desire to reunify her country will likely rank quite highly on her agenda, so she will need to act against any threat to that - such as a rebel lord.

 

I really don't think Elayne would start a war she would probably lose following such social calamity.

That would depend on the state of play. She might think she has a good chance of winning any such war. If she can recover before Perrin, if he still has enough problems elsewhere, she can act against him.

 

To annex is to intentionally take something that doesn't belong to you. There is no such thing as accidental annexation.

Then what term should be used? The territory is not being taken with Andor's consent, so it is not being ceded. It is being annexed.

 

He's sworn to the Seanchan he'd give up the Red Eagle. So, in what way will he be openly advertising his rebellion?

His Wolfhead banner.

 

As for the last bit, if she sent forces out there Perrin would not fight. And he would give over the land. The point of my comments is that she won't

The point of mine is that she will.

he will step in because of his sense of duty

And she will because of her pride, if nothing else.

 

Again and again you suggest some form of overt subversion, which would bring Elayne's attention to the West. Why?

Because that is what she will see. A rebel lord, who needs to be dealt with, trying to curry favour in her lands. To spread his rebellion.

 

At that time there would be no friction since neither side would be aware that subversion of Elayne's people was occuring.

The mere existence of Perrin, and his banner raised in the TR, is cause enough for friction.

 

The same cannot be said of Elayne.

She has other reasons to help, apart from any sense of duty to her subjects she might possess. Pride, for one.

 

Elayne is in a position to expand her sphere of interest--but she is a political creature.

All the more reason for her to be aware of what Perrin is doing, and what the effects might be - to her and her country. Even if Elayne didn't see it as a threat, it could be used against her. A rebel, under his own flag and until recently that of Manetheren, gaining favour in areas of the country where the Queen has no presence. If she cannot deal with him, it could be used against her. If she cannot look after her own citizens, if they starve and require a rebel lord for food, it will be used against her.

 

Besides, Perrin's efforts would actually stop her from trying to help even if she chose to--why do what someone else is doing?

Politics. Why should she look after Western Andor when the other guy is doing just fine at it? It undermines her rule in those areas. While that is not Perrin's intent, it is what will result, as you say, and thus Elayne will have to act against it.

It's not like him giving out food is threatening to her.

Your entire argument rests on the fact that it is, and that she will not realise that, no-one will.

 

But, to answer your question, western Andor is Perrin's powerbase. Of course he has more resources there than Elayne does.

But he will need to spend them elsewhere. The TR, Ghealdan, Saldaea. He might not have enough left to effectively administer the rest of Western Andor.

 

He will not be taking control of anything, he'll be helping a people in need. By the time people realise that's put him in charge it will be too late for war.

That's it, isn't it. You rely on no-one realising. On them all being blind. Mine relies on Elayne or someone close to her seeing what might happen, and her taking measures to prevent it. Now, while the characters might not have perfect records for foresight, they also have a pretty good for acting at cross purposes through a lack of communication. So they don't see Perrin helping for purely selfless reasons, they see him as a rebel lord trying to expand, and act agains that.

 

Yes, I imagine she will. Of course by the time she hears it will all be irrelevant, and western Andor will be solidly in Perrin's hands.

News can travel quite fast, even if only in distorted form, as rumours. And those rumours can blow Perrin's actions out of proportion, thus increasing the friction and thus the risk of armed conflict.

 

Your problem Ares is that your thinking in blunt terms.

I disagree that it's a problem.

Perrin will not be attempting to subvert Elayne's rule, and Elayne will not see it so.

That's where we differ. His trying to help brings further conflict through miscommunication. She will see an attempt to undermine her when really he is just trying to help.

[Luckers]

Neither does Perrin.

 

Course he does. His powerbase is there.

 

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And by the time Elayne feels the need to re-assert her control they will simply be lands Perrin controls.

 

They won't be under his control that long. She won't stand for it. The both of them will be stretched thin.

 

Your repeating yourself and I've addressed this. The key Ares, 'by the time...'

 

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The border change would already be set by then. Just the same as the Andoran's remade the border when they moved into Murandy to face the Aes Sedai. It wasn't intentional, but it happened.

 

It happened because they made it happen. The Andorans took Murandian land. They didn't just wake up and find they'd moved the borders. They took advantage of an opportunity. You don't think they were unaware of what would happen if they stayed put in such numbers?

 

Ah... no... thats actually exactly what they did. They went south to meet a completely seperate but pressing issue. That issue threatened the Murandians too, so they accepted it, and as a result borders changer.

 

And maybe they did think it might happen. That's irrelevant--it wasn't percieved that way from the outside until too late, and Perrin is not that savvy.

 

Saldaea is the only sovereign nation left. Western Andor is part of a country, and Ghealdan has lost its independence. The King or Queen of Ghealdan is subordinate to Perrin, and Perrin is the King of Saldaea. They become client states or imperial provinces. Saldaea is left supreme

 

Perrin's not so discerning. The core of his people are from the Two Rivers, but he gives equal respect to the Ghealdanin and he'll give the same--precisely equal--respect to the Saldaean.

 

This will not be a Saldaean nation, it will be a multicultural based around Perrin. None will have specific supremacy, and none will be suppressed in favour of the others.

 

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But the idea is that it would, in Perrin's eyes, simply be short term assistance. He will do what's needful. The problem is that what's needful won't be all that short-term, and by the times these issues subside the new state of things will be locked in place.

 

From Perin's perspective, it would indeed be short term, but Elayne will not see it as such, she will see it as an affront to her authority. It will only be locked in if people lock it in. If Elayne refuses to act or if Perrin refuses to yield.

 

Elayne will see it as precisely that. Baerlon sustained from aid out of the Two Rivers is no threat to her throne.

 

Again, Perrin will not occupy these lands. He will not assert authority in these lands. He will simply order aid be given to them as they need it, and as a result, over the next decade, their loyalty will shift to him.

 

It's much like how Rand gained loyalty from Illian through his shipments of food. Unintentional, but it will occur. And by the time anyone--Elayne, or in truth Perrin himself, realises he's annexed those lands it'll be too late. They'll be his.

 

He has already raised his standard in rebellion. Even the giving of food, it is usurping her authority. She will not react positively to it. She already knows these lands don't answer to her, her mother was none too pleased when she heard about the TR, but was unable to act, and Elayne thinks very highly of her mother, and her refusal to give up any Andoran soil. A desire to reunify her country will likely rank quite highly on her agenda, so she will need to act against any threat to that - such as a rebel lord.

 

Nonsense. The rumours of rebellion stem from the Red Eagle, and I've no doubt Perrin will meet Elayne during TG and answer, quite truthfully, that that was not a rebellion and has since been given up for good.

 

They will likely part on perfectly good terms, and his giving of food and security will not make her bash an eyelash. She will have far more pressing things to concern her.

 

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To annex is to intentionally take something that doesn't belong to you. There is no such thing as accidental annexation.

 

Then what term should be used? The territory is not being taken with Andor's consent, so it is not being ceded. It is being annexed.

 

The word you are looking for is secede. It will be western Andor's transfer of loyalty that causes this. Indeed this began because Andor could not and did not fulfil its duty to the west, so they had to take things into their own hands.

 

Certainly though it's not annexation.

 

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He's sworn to the Seanchan he'd give up the Red Eagle. So, in what way will he be openly advertising his rebellion?

 

His Wolfhead banner.

 

People have personal sigils, including people with armies. It's existence does not pronounce rebellion, and they will doubtlessly meet during TG in which Perrin's simple honesty would assuage any such fears in Elayne.

 

But he will need to spend them elsewhere. The TR, Ghealdan, Saldaea. He might not have enough left to effectively administer the rest of Western Andor.

 

Ghealdean and Saldaea have their own infrastructure--he will need to involve himself, but that stress is on him, not his western Andor resources. Elayne has no such resources.

 

News can travel quite fast, even if only in distorted form, as rumours. And those rumours can blow Perrin's actions out of proportion, thus increasing the friction and thus the risk of armed conflict.

 

Elayne and Perrin would likely be in contact, albeit infrequently. Why would she believe rumours over what would be honesty on his part? He'd only intend to help.

 

Elayne's a pretty good judge of character. She'd see his integrity pretty fast.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Course he does. His powerbase is there.

Doesn't follow. Caemlyn has more resources than the TR, but is farther off.

 

Your repeating yourself and I've addressed this. The key Ares, 'by the time...'

As soon as she hears of it, and that won't take long.

 

Ah... no... thats actually exactly what they did. They went south to meet a completely seperate but pressing issue. That issue threatened the Murandians too, so they accepted it, and as a result borders changer.

The borders changed because they decided to stay, in force. They had good reason for doing so, but you can't really be suggesting that they were so dense they didn't realise what the result would be if they stayed there that long.

 

And maybe they did think it might happen. That's irrelevant--it wasn't percieved that way from the outside until too late, and Perrin is not that savvy.

It's not Perrin's savvy-ness that is in question, but Elayne's.

 

Perrin's not so discerning. The core of his people are from the Two Rivers, but he gives equal respect to the Ghealdanin and he'll give the same--precisely equal--respect to the Saldaean.

Doesn't matter. What do you think this new nation will be called? Where will it be ruled from? Emond's Field is hardly cut out to be the capital of a major world power. These places will be ruled by the King of Saldaea. If he centralises power, that's the most likely place to do so. If he doesn't, if they remain separate countries under one ruler, than he doesn't have one nation. He has parts of Andor, Ghealdan, Saldaea, all separate.

 

Elayne will see it as precisely that. Baerlon sustained from aid out of the Two Rivers is no threat to her throne.

Baerlon sustained by a rebel lord makes her look weak. She cannot deal with the rebellion, she cannot rule her subjects, nor can she provide for them. This can be used against her by her enemies in Caemlyn.

 

Again, Perrin will not occupy these lands. He will not assert authority in these lands. He will simply order aid be given to them as they need it, and as a result, over the next decade, their loyalty will shift to him.

Exactly. So Elayne will act to prevent that loyalty shifting away from her, as it will divide her country. You even give an example of it happening in the books, Illian, thus increasing the chances of someone noticing and bringing it to Elayne's attention, and her deciding to act.

 

Nonsense. The rumours of rebellion stem from the Red Eagle

They might begon there, but they don't end. Him putting away Manetheren's flag but keeping his own? So he is starting a new country rather than raising an old one. The best way to mollify might be to raise the Lion of Andor.

I've no doubt Perrin will meet Elayne during TG and answer, quite truthfully, that that was not a rebellion and has since been given up for good.

At or before TG. She has reason to speak to him. But he is still a lord with no allegiance ot the Lion Throne, trying to gain the good will of her subjects. She has good reason to bring him into the fold. He is an Andoran lord, and the help he offers comes from the Lion Throne, the flage raised are Andor's, the Queen's Guard are present (even if only through putting Perrin's people in red and white livery. She needs to make Perrin hers or get rid of him. Not leave him to run free.

 

The word you are looking for is secede.

No, it isn't. They are not just leaving Andor, they are falling under Perrin's sway. They are not just seceding from Andor, they are being annexed by Perrin. Also, I don't know if you noticed it, but you said earlier in your post that, "by the time anyone--Elayne, or in truth Perrin himself, realises he's annexed those lands it'll be too late. They'll be his."

 

People have personal sigils, including people with armies.

True, but it is the presence of the flag of a man who is called a lord, but has not been granted a peerage by the Queen, and the lack of Andor's banners that do the damage. He is not proclaiming loyalty to anything but himself. He doesn't even have the Dragon Banner, or the Banner of the Light, usually.

It's existence does not pronounce rebellion, and they will doubtlessly meet during TG in which Perrin's simple honesty would assuage any such fears in Elayne.

A refusal to display the White Lion wouldn't do him favours. Waving the White Lion shows that the food comes from the Queen, via Lord Perrin.

 

Ghealdean and Saldaea have their own infrastructure--he will need to involve himself, but that stress is on him, not his western Andor resources. Elayne has no such resources.

If Western Andor has the resources and infrastructure, then Elayne can administer it as easily as Perrin. If it doesn't then resources will ned to be brought in from outside. So either Elayne will have to transfer things from Caemlyn, or Perrin from TR, Ghealda and Saldaea.

 

Elayne and Perrin would likely be in contact, albeit infrequently. Why would she believe rumours over what would be honesty on his part? He'd only intend to help.

 

Elayne's a pretty good judge of character. She'd see his integrity pretty fast.

And if they meet, and sort it out, she will know that Perrin is not acting against her. But if he is not helping in the name of Andor, she i going to lose those territories. So she will either ask him to help in Andor's name, take over the job entirely, or work together. However, Perrin doesn't end up in charge. Not unless she blithely dismisses the possibility of these people not wanting to be Andoran citizens, and thus allows Perrin to win their favour while doing nothing to show them that they are still ruled by Caemlyn. In fact, the two of them working together on a solution would be best, and provide the least strain on the resources of either party. But if only Perrin is seen to help, she will lose those parts, and she will surely realise that.

[Luckers]

Doesn't follow. Caemlyn has more resources than the TR, but is farther off.

 

Caemlyn's resources will be spent dealing with Caemlyn's problems. All of Eastern Andor is the same. Eastern Andor can't sustain Western Andor as it is, after TG it would be even worse.

 

Perrin has a large agricultural workbase in the area. He's the only organised force that would look to their problems.

 

 

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Ah... no... thats actually exactly what they did. They went south to meet a completely seperate but pressing issue. That issue threatened the Murandians too, so they accepted it, and as a result borders changer.

 

The borders changed because they decided to stay, in force. They had good reason for doing so, but you can't really be suggesting that they were so dense they didn't realise what the result would be if they stayed there that long.

 

Selective editing is pathetic Ares.

 

Here is what I continued that specific comment with. "And maybe they did think it might happen. That's irrelevant--it wasn't percieved that way from the outside until too late, and Perrin is not that savvy."

 

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And maybe they did think it might happen. That's irrelevant--it wasn't percieved that way from the outside until too late, and Perrin is not that savvy.

 

It's not Perrin's savvy-ness that is in question, but Elayne's.

 

I'm sorry, what does Elayne have to do with this point? I mean even remotely? Go back and re-read the sequence of these comments Ares, or next time I'll wipe the floor with them and you know it.

 

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Perrin's not so discerning. The core of his people are from the Two Rivers, but he gives equal respect to the Ghealdanin and he'll give the same--precisely equal--respect to the Saldaean.

 

Doesn't matter. What do you think this new nation will be called? Where will it be ruled from? Emond's Field is hardly cut out to be the capital of a major world power. These places will be ruled by the King of Saldaea. If he centralises power, that's the most likely place to do so. If he doesn't, if they remain separate countries under one ruler, than he doesn't have one nation. He has parts of Andor, Ghealdan, Saldaea, all separate.

 

I've no idea what the nation will be called, but it won't be Saldaea. These places will be ruled by the King of Saldaea... and the Leige of the Queen of Ghealdean, and the Lord of the Two Rivers.

 

Titles are a dime a dozen. Your suggestion is impossible by Perrin's fair nature.

 

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Elayne will see it as precisely that. Baerlon sustained from aid out of the Two Rivers is no threat to her throne.

 

Baerlon sustained by a rebel lord makes her look weak. She cannot deal with the rebellion, she cannot rule her subjects, nor can she provide for them. This can be used against her by her enemies in Caemlyn.

 

I don't see her going after Perrin's 'rebellion' now. Why? Because she has more important issues. And, given she'll almost certainly encounter Perrin during TG that becomes even less of an issue.

 

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Again, Perrin will not occupy these lands. He will not assert authority in these lands. He will simply order aid be given to them as they need it, and as a result, over the next decade, their loyalty will shift to him.

 

Exactly. So Elayne will act to prevent that loyalty shifting away from her, as it will divide her country. You even give an example of it happening in the books, Illian, thus increasing the chances of someone noticing and bringing it to Elayne's attention, and her deciding to act.

 

Your attempts to claim she'd place an outright rebellion ahead of what she'll face politically after TG were hard to swallow, this attempt to claim she'd percieve a subtle subversion based singularily in aid for lands she cannot herself give aid to from a person who is by all rights her ally....

 

Nope. Just plain nope.

 

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Nonsense. The rumours of rebellion stem from the Red Eagle

 

They might begon there, but they don't end. Him putting away Manetheren's flag but keeping his own? So he is starting a new country rather than raising an old one. The best way to mollify might be to raise the Lion of Andor.

 

My comment continued from there in detail Ares.

 

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I've no doubt Perrin will meet Elayne during TG and answer, quite truthfully, that that was not a rebellion and has since been given up for good.

 

At or before TG. She has reason to speak to him. But he is still a lord with no allegiance ot the Lion Throne, trying to gain the good will of her subjects. She has good reason to bring him into the fold. He is an Andoran lord, and the help he offers comes from the Lion Throne, the flage raised are Andor's, the Queen's Guard are present (even if only through putting Perrin's people in red and white livery. She needs to make Perrin hers or get rid of him. Not leave him to run free.

 

Perrin would not fold easy. He'd assuage her doubts about rebellion against the throne, but go on to do what he wants. She'd have no choice in him running free.

 

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The word you are looking for is secede.

 

No, it isn't. They are not just leaving Andor, they are falling under Perrin's sway. They are not just seceding from Andor, they are being annexed by Perrin. Also, I don't know if you noticed it, but you said earlier in your post that, "by the time anyone--Elayne, or in truth Perrin himself, realises he's annexed those lands it'll be too late. They'll be his."

 

Yeah it is. The choice is there--to leave a political group is to secede, even if one is leaving one group to join another.

 

And my point in that comment was about the fact that neither Elayne nor Perrin would realise this subversion was occuring. Quite clearly in that tone I was not suggesting that Perrin would annex those lands, the word was simply in play so it flowed.

 

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People have personal sigils, including people with armies.

 

True, but it is the presence of the flag of a man who is called a lord, but has not been granted a peerage by the Queen, and the lack of Andor's banners that do the damage. He is not proclaiming loyalty to anything but himself. He doesn't even have the Dragon Banner, or the Banner of the Light, usually.

 

And she'll dislike that. But she won't declare war on him for it because he'll tell her cleanly (and truly) that he'd not rebelling. He won't place himself as her subject anymore than Mat will, and that WILL irritate her, but it won't threaten her--not enough for her to take measure.

 

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It's existence does not pronounce rebellion, and they will doubtlessly meet during TG in which Perrin's simple honesty would assuage any such fears in Elayne.

 

A refusal to display the White Lion wouldn't do him favours. Waving the White Lion shows that the food comes from the Queen, via Lord Perrin.

 

So what? He's never going to subject himself to her, and she'll have to deal with that during TG when she most certainly will not have the option of declaring war.

 

He will never wave the White Lion. She'll deal.

 

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Ghealdean and Saldaea have their own infrastructure--he will need to involve himself, but that stress is on him, not his western Andor resources. Elayne has no such resources.

 

If Western Andor has the resources and infrastructure, then Elayne can administer it as easily as Perrin. If it doesn't then resources will ned to be brought in from outside. So either Elayne will have to transfer things from Caemlyn, or Perrin from TR, Ghealda and Saldaea.

 

No, she can't. Perrin's created that infrastrcture, it belongs to him, and it will never serve Elayne. Elayne will allow it to serve the need in that area because she cannot, which will be her undoing, though none will realise it until its too late.

 

And if they meet, and sort it out, she will know that Perrin is not acting against her. But if he is not helping in the name of Andor, she i going to lose those territories. So she will either ask him to help in Andor's name, take over the job entirely, or work together. However, Perrin doesn't end up in charge. Not unless she blithely dismisses the possibility of these people not wanting to be Andoran citizens, and thus allows Perrin to win their favour while doing nothing to show them that they are still ruled by Caemlyn. In fact, the two of them working together on a solution would be best, and provide the least strain on the resources of either party. But if only Perrin is seen to help, she will lose those parts, and she will surely realise that.

 

Or he will start the work and she, having so many issues of her own, will let him given that he has convinced her of his integrity and that the Two Rivers did not raise the Red Eagle in Rebellion.

 

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Woah! Luckers VS Ares, two of the big dogs fighting to the end! I feel like I should be paying for tickets!

[Charlz Guybon]

My thought is that Andor will lose the lands east of Whitebridge to Perrin who will make a new nation of Saldaea and eastern Andor--and quite possible Ghealdean. Western Andor and Cairhein--and possibly part of Murandy, will also join to create a new nation between them, the Seanchan will hold Tenchico, Amadacia and Altara.

 

Interulde also provides for Arad Domon to take Almoth, but thats about it. Stronger nations to equal the Seanchan foothold, and with Perrin and Elayne's nations standing as a shield between the Seanchan and Tar Valon.

 

Elayne probably won't like that, but once Perrin claims the Broken Crown (which will happen soon) he will be stronger than she is. With Tarmon Gai'don and joining Cairhien and Andor, by the time she could do anything about it it would be set in stone.

 

The Queen's Guard will crush these upstarts.  >:(

[draconian]

The Queen's Guard will crush these upstarts.  >:(

trollics thought that too look what happened to them

 

[mb]

Like other posters, it seems unlikely that Perrin would control any more area than Saldaea, unless the Borderlands (except Malkier) get combined with Saldaea.

Once Perrin realizes that he is heir to Saldaea through Faile, he would probably convince the Two Rivers people to choose someone else as their lord and also convince Faile to let them.  Or if convincing does not work, he would probably demand.  Or if even demanding does not work, he would probably either appoint for them or let the Andor government appoint someone else besides him.

 

Perrin controlling the portion of Andor that is between Two Rivers & Whitebridge, Perrin would not like that either.

Once Perrin gains Saldaea, him strengthening the Blight border would be more likely than him conquering the lands between Saldaea & Two Rivers.

Even if he does conquer those lands, the towns/cities/villages would need people under him to govern them.  Those people would need to fit each of these requirements:

-Perrin trusts them

-The residents accept theirs

-They having the skills to govern

Not many (probably very few) would fit all of them.

 

[Majsju]

Perrin controlling the portion of Andor that is between Two Rivers & Whitebridge, Perrin would not like that either.

 

Perrin does not like being any kind of lord, period. He is however (with a little help from Faile) smart enough to see what needs to be done. In this case, to take care of people who count on him.

 

Once Perrin gains Saldaea, him strengthening the Blight border would be more likely than him conquering the lands between Saldaea & Two Rivers.

 

Thing is, there is a little something lurking around the corner known as TG. Once that is over, the need to strengthen the Blight border will decrease a lot. And conquering the lands between Saldea and Two Rivers? That land is unclaimed wilderness.

 

Even if he does conquer those lands, the towns/cities/villages would need people under him to govern them.  Those people would need to fit each of these requirements:

-Perrin trusts them

-The residents accept theirs

-They having the skills to govern

Not many (probably very few) would fit all of them.

 

Again, unclaimed wilderness. There are no towns, most likely not even any villages.

There is however a bunch of refugees, around 100000, in need of a place to settle down, who right now waits for Faile and Perrin to tell them what to do. Hmm, repopulate that area between Saldea and the Two Rivers, perhaps...

[Mr Ares]

Perrin has a large agricultural workbase in the area.

He has the Two Rivers, a region that is very hard to farm and drives off all but the most stubborn, and the bulk of its produce isn't food. So he doesn't have the food supplies they will need, not in the TR. I doubt Ghealdan does either. So hopefully Saldaea has enough to go around.

 

Here is what I continued that specific comment with. "And maybe they did think it might happen. That's irrelevant--it wasn't percieved that way from the outside until too late, and Perrin is not that savvy."

It wasn't perceived that way from the outside by Egwene. And it is not Perrin's savvy-ness that is at issue, but Elayne's, and that of her advisors. As it is they who will be acting if Perrin does this. Whether or not Perrin sees a border change occuring doesn't matter. If he sees people who need his help, he will act regardless.

 

I've no idea what the nation will be called, but it won't be Saldaea. These places will be ruled by the King of Saldaea... and the Leige of the Queen of Ghealdean, and the Lord of the Two Rivers.

 

Titles are a dime a dozen. Your suggestion is impossible by Perrin's fair nature.

Perrin's nature is not shared with his wife. Whose assent he would need to change Saldaea's name, but not that of the other lands in which he would be the sole power.

 

I don't see her going after Perrin's 'rebellion' now. Why? Because she has more important issues.

Not many, and Perrin taking this course of action will shoot him up the list of priorities.

 

Your attempts to claim she'd place an outright rebellion ahead of what she'll face politically after TG were hard to swallow, this attempt to claim she'd percieve a subtle subversion based singularily in aid for lands she cannot herself give aid to from a person who is by all rights her ally....

 

Nope. Just plain nope.

Perrin is not her ally, not in Andoran internal affairs. In that regard he is her enemy. So she would percieve a subtle threat in her enemies expansionist tendencies, even if they are carried out in a subtle fashion.

 

Perrin would not fold easy. He'd assuage her doubts about rebellion against the throne, but go on to do what he wants. She'd have no choice in him running free.

If she has no control over his actions within her borders, how is he not a rebel?

 

The choice is there--to leave a political group is to secede, even if one is leaving one group to join another.

And to join another is not secession.

 

And she'll dislike that. But she won't declare war on him for it because he'll tell her cleanly (and truly) that he'd not rebelling. He won't place himself as her subject anymore than Mat will, and that WILL irritate her, but it won't threaten her--not enough for her to take measure.

His not placing himself as her subject is what makes it a rebellion. Mat might irritate her, but he is not laying claim to any Andoran lands or titles. Perrin is. Perrin is claiming to be an Andoran lord, but a lord with no allegiance to the throne. So the difference between him and Mat is quite crucial. She could afford to be irritated by Mat, but not do anything. She cannot afford the same with Perrin.

 

He's never going to subject himself to her, and she'll have to deal with that during TG when she most certainly will not have the option of declaring war.

 

He will never wave the White Lion. She'll deal.

So he's a rebel. She's supposed to accept he's not a rebel when he is. The Elayne you suggest is thus incredibly stupid.

 

Or he will start the work and she, having so many issues of her own, will let him given that he has convinced her of his integrity and that the Two Rivers did not raise the Red Eagle in Rebellion.

Yet Perrin cannot assuage any suspicions of him not being a rebel against her throne when he is. An honest rebel, one with no desire for power, but a rebel nonetheless.

 

Of course, all of this does rely on Perrin suriving TG, which we have no guarantees of. Min's Viewing didn't say how long he would have the Broken Crown for, after all.

 

Woah! Luckers VS Ares, two of the big dogs fighting to the end! I feel like I should be paying for tickets!

Just think, if you put in the effort, one day people might look up and say, "Woah! Padraic_Seebrr VS Mr Ares, a true clash of the titans!"

 

And conquering the lands between Saldea and Two Rivers? That land is unclaimed wilderness.

Except for the bits claimed by Andor.

[mb]

My point about strengthening the Blight border, that was applied to if Perrin gains Saldaea before Tarmon Gaidon.

 

After Tarmon Gaidon, I do not see Perrin going around conquering any land; and he probably would not let Faile do it either.  A return to being a blacksmith would probably be more likely than conquering land after Tarmon Gaidon.

Perrin does not seem like a person who would seek to gain more land.

Not sure if Faile would want the land either.  Or if she does, she likely would be pregnant most of the time (she & Perrin might likely try for several children).  With morning sickness & other pregnancy symptoms, there would be not much time to conquer land.  And after the pregnancies, both of them would need to look after their children.

 

Also; the bigger the land, the more people there would need to be to guard it.  And thus more leaders to keep track of those people.

After Tarmon Gaidon, Saldaea (and other nations) would likely be seriously depopulated.

 

And after Tarmon Gaidon, there would not be much need to get the land.

If to defend the land from the Seachan, Perrin likely would not want to be a traitor since he has/had an alliance with them at least temporarily.  Also, the Seanchan would likely have learned Traveling and have much of the main continent's weapons by then.

Providing needs for his people might be a more likely reason, though the resources in the area would likely be limited.

 

[Majsju]

After Tarmon Gaidon, I do not see Perrin going around conquering any land; and he probably would not let Faile do it either.  A return to being a blacksmith would probably be more likely than conquering land after Tarmon Gaidon.

Perrin does not seem like a person who would seek to gain more land.

Not sure if Faile would want the land either.  Or if she does, she likely would be pregnant most of the time (she & Perrin might likely try for several children).  With morning sickness & other pregnancy symptoms, there would be not much time to conquer land.  And after the pregnancies, both of them would need to look after their children.

 

We are not talking about any conquering here. Perrin is already Lord of the Two Rivers, the people there follow him. The only territory that will need to be taken from someone else is the strip of land surrounding Baerlon, and that will happen through assimilation over the years.

It is not a matter of Perrin seeking to gain more land, it is a matter of him staying true to his nature. He has duties to the people of the Two Rivers and Ghealdan, eventually he will have duties to the people of Saldea as well. Best way for him to manage this will be by merging these into a single, strong nation.

 

And after Tarmon Gaidon, there would not be much need to get the land.

If to defend the land from the Seachan, Perrin likely would not want to be a traitor since he has/had an alliance with them at least temporarily.  Also, the Seanchan would likely have learned Traveling and have much of the main continent's weapons by then.

Providing needs for his people might be a more likely reason, though the resources in the area would likely be limited.

 

The need to get the land should be quite obvious. It is a lot easier to handle a single nation, than three separate entities. Also, there is this one neighbour to the southwest whose favourite hobby is Conquer the entire world.

And nothing Perrin would do to the Seanchan would in any way make him a traitor. He made a temporary deal to handle a single, defined situation. That is over now.

As for eventual limited resources, you do not think they would be even more limited if he kept three separated entities?

[Luckers]

He has the Two Rivers, a region that is very hard to farm and drives off all but the most stubborn, and the bulk of its produce isn't food. So he doesn't have the food supplies they will need, not in the TR. I doubt Ghealdan does either. So hopefully Saldaea has enough to go around

 

No one said the Two Rivers was hard to farm. Their primrary exports are wool and tabac because shipping produce would be pointless--it'd all go off before it reached any markets worth maintaining.

 

The land itself is perfect--the presense of heavy forestation show that. Faile's supplementation of water from the new irrigation system will only increase that. There will be a year before the produce anything worthwhile, its true (though they do have significant livestock), but famine's only going to support Perrin gaining hold since during that year Elayne won't be able to do anything about the famine in the west anyway. After a year of hardship and empty bellies food out of the Two Rivers will do the same thing for Perrin as food out of Tear did for Rand in Illian.

 

It wasn't perceived that way from the outside by Egwene. And it is not Perrin's savvy-ness that is at issue, but Elayne's, and that of her advisors. As it is they who will be acting if Perrin does this. Whether or not Perrin sees a border change occuring doesn't matter. If he sees people who need his help, he will act regardless.

 

Actually it was Perrin's savy-ness that was the issue. Your comment to which that was a reply was about Perrin's realisation.

 

Perrin's nature is not shared with his wife. Whose assent he would need to change Saldaea's name, but not that of the other lands in which he would be the sole power.

 

Saldaea can keep its name. Were talking about the over all name of the greater kingdom. And Faile is not an idiot, she'd see the political reasons for homogenisation.

 

Besides these things usually simply happen over time with no particular effort on anyones part. I doubt anyone will be referring to Perrin's realm by a specific name anytime soon, but certainly they won't be referring to his southern lands as Saldaea.

 

Quote

I don't see her going after Perrin's 'rebellion' now. Why? Because she has more important issues.

 

Not many, and Perrin taking this course of action will shoot him up the list of priorities.

 

Yes, because Perrin--having stood at Elayne's side, fought with her, and shown himself to be an all around decent fellow--feeding people and killing bandits is so terrifying she'll ignore those same issue in all the rest of the country (as well as dealing with rebellious lords, the Game of Houses, Asha'men setting up camp next to her capital, Seanchan and whatever the heck else) and run haring off to deal with him.

 

I mean thats even assuming she has enough men left to gather an army.

 

Also, the numbers of Elayne's issues is rather irrelvant. Their importance is--making Perrin bow to her would be something she'd want, but knowing him she'll set it on the backburner for a later date because she will have several issues which are SIGNIFICANTLY more important.

 

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Your attempts to claim she'd place an outright rebellion ahead of what she'll face politically after TG were hard to swallow, this attempt to claim she'd percieve a subtle subversion based singularily in aid for lands she cannot herself give aid to from a person who is by all rights her ally....

 

Nope. Just plain nope.

 

 

Perrin is not her ally, not in Andoran internal affairs. In that regard he is her enemy. So she would percieve a subtle threat in her enemies expansionist tendencies, even if they are carried out in a subtle fashion.

 

He is not her enemy in Andoran internal affairs, he simply won't subject himself to her. In a vacuum that would have meant he was her enemy since she is a monarch and he lives within land nominally claimed by her throne, however its not a vacuum and he IS her ally in the big stuff. TG and the leading of the Light.

 

So yes, flat out no to the idea that'd she'd be paying him that sort of attention. It'd be an irritation to her, one she'd plan to deal with at some stage. Nothing more.

 

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Perrin would not fold easy. He'd assuage her doubts about rebellion against the throne, but go on to do what he wants. She'd have no choice in him running free.

 

If she has no control over his actions within her borders, how is he not a rebel?

 

To rebel is to act against the established authority. He wouldn't be doing that, he'd simply be ignoring the established authority--which I agree would engender the same sort of attention normally, but its not 'normally'. They will be forced to fight alongside each other, and their individual sense of integrity will impress each other.

 

In effect they will not see each other as enemies. Elayne will be irritated by Perrin's refusal to admit her sovreignty but it will be friendly sort of irritation. Certainly she won't ignore the other pressing matters that face her to deal with it.

 

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The choice is there--to leave a political group is to secede, even if one is leaving one group to join another.

 

And to join another is not secession.

 

No, that's generally called an 'alliance', though in these specific circumstances perhaps 'syncronisation' would serve better.

 

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And she'll dislike that. But she won't declare war on him for it because he'll tell her cleanly (and truly) that he'd not rebelling. He won't place himself as her subject anymore than Mat will, and that WILL irritate her, but it won't threaten her--not enough for her to take measure.

 

 

His not placing himself as her subject is what makes it a rebellion. Mat might irritate her, but he is not laying claim to any Andoran lands or titles. Perrin is. Perrin is claiming to be an Andoran lord, but a lord with no allegiance to the throne. So the difference between him and Mat is quite crucial. She could afford to be irritated by Mat, but not do anything. She cannot afford the same with Perrin.

 

But he's not actually claiming anything of the sort. It was thrust on him, and he will impress that on her. That's not rebellion, and for all that he will not bow to her she will see herself eventually regaining control. Quite like Mat, actually.

 

Quote from: Padraic_Seebrr on August 26, 2009, 03:48:30 PM

Woah! Luckers VS Ares, two of the big dogs fighting to the end! I feel like I should be paying for tickets!

 

 

Just think, if you put in the effort, one day people might look up and say, "Woah! Padraic_Seebrr VS Mr Ares, a true clash of the titans!"

 

Perhaps they'll say 'silly Ares, taking on Padraic_Seebrr'.

 

:p

 

 

[Mr Ares]

It is a lot easier to handle a single nation, than three separate entities.

Why would he still be holding on to Ghealdan after TG?

 

No one said the Two Rivers was hard to farm.

It's said in EotW that that's the reason for the stubborness of TR folk - those who aren't stubborn, leave. Wolves and weather were mentioned, and the stony soil of the TR. It's a tough place to make a living, and as they make their livings as farmers, it's a tough place to farm.

Their primary exports are wool and tabac because shipping produce would be pointless--it'd all go off before it reached any markets worth maintaining.

The why is less important than that they do not have the food supplies needed.

 

Actually it was Perrin's savy-ness that was the issue. Your comment to which that was a reply was about Perrin's realisation.

This point seems to have drifted somewhat. Andor forced a border change without realising, Andor did know what they were doing and thus this is different to Perrin's situation, Perrin won't realise, it doesn't matter if Perrin doesn't realise because what matters is whether Elayne realises. Andor forced a border change, Perrin won't be. He won't want to keep this land. Elayne will realise the result of inaction will be losing it, and thus she will act. How savvy Perrin is not at issue. He will act regardless of any potential border change, and he has no desire to change the border. His actions in this regard will only change the border if he makes it happen. He has no reason to. Therefore, how savvy Elayne is comes into question - if she perceives a border change as being likely. If she does, she has reason to act against Perrin.

 

Saldaea can keep its name. Were talking about the over all name of the greater kingdom.

Indeed. Saldaea. It can homogenise under that name. If they try and forge it into one nation, that is. If they keep them separate, then there is no reason for a name for the greater kingdom.

 

Yes, because Perrin--having stood at Elayne's side, fought with her, and shown himself to be an all around decent fellow--feeding people and killing bandits is so terrifying she'll ignore those same issue in all the rest of the country (as well as dealing with rebellious lords, the Game of Houses, Asha'men setting up camp next to her capital, Seanchan and whatever the heck else) and run haring off to deal with him.

Perrin is one of those rebellious lords she will have to deal with. Perhaps others will even be drawn to unite with him. Perrin, feeding people and killing bandits is not a problem. Perrin, feeding her subjects, killing bandits, and doing so in his own name, laying claim to her lands in his own name, refusing to kneel to her, being in rebellion against her? Different story. It might be a problem that can be solved by negotiation, and Perrin fighting at her side and being a decent fellow are reasons for her to settle it that way, but Perrin winding up with half her kingdom in his pocket is not something she will stand for. She might ally with him, for example. Have his men give out food and kill bandits alongside Queen's Guard. But he will have to be dealt with.

 

making Perrin bow to her would be something she'd want, but knowing him she'll set it on the backburner for a later date because she will have several issues which are SIGNIFICANTLY more important.

She might put aside making him bow, but she will not leave the situation there unaddressed, not to the extent required for the border change you propose.

 

He is not her enemy in Andoran internal affairs, he simply won't subject himself to her.

Which is what makes him her enemy.

he IS her ally in the big stuff. TG and the leading of the Light.

But Andor's internal affairs are a different matter. At TG, they fight on the same side. After that? She might be impressed by him as a person, but not so much so that she will do nothing when her subjects need her, just because he's doing it. She will try and find a way to turn the situation to her addvantage, not just ignore it.

 

To rebel is to act against the established authority.

If he is refusing to kneel, that is exactly what he is doing.

They will be forced to fight alongside each other, and their individual sense of integrity will impress each other.

If respecting someone was enough to stop them fighting, we wouldn't be having this argument. People can respectfully disagree, even respect an enemy. They will be enemies with respect for the other's integrity.

 

No, that's generally called an 'alliance', though in these specific circumstances perhaps 'syncronisation' would serve better.

Or amalgamation.

 

It was thrust on him, and he will impress that on her.

And if he does, she has reason to stop her other subjects thrusting yet more titles on him. If her (well, Morgase) doing nothing in the TR while he did something lost her the region, then not doing something in other regions while he does merely spreads the problem. She might accept that it will be recoverable in the long term, but that doesn't mean she still has good reason to nip it in the bud, stop it before it gets out of hand. Much easier to act at an early stage.

 

Perhaps they'll say 'silly Ares, taking on Padraic_Seebrr'.

 

:p

They might, but only if they're currently saying "silly Luckers, taking on Ares". If they're currently saying "silly Ares", then it should be "silly Padraic_Seebrr". Passing the torch, you see. Of course, even when doing very sensible things I'm silly, but in a very dignified way.