who betrayed egwene

[Piotr]

hello everybody

 

I just finished yet another read through and I really can't figure out who betrayed Egwene so she was taken captive in Tar Valon. Or to be more precise, I can't figure out who betrayed the person who was supposed to sabotage the Tar Valon harbor, because they clearly weren't expecting Egwene...

 

Are there any big (or small  ;)) theories on this?

[dholm]

I have a personal theory that it was the remnants of the original Hall that did it, but only because I have no other culprits so far.

[elmis]

It's probably tied in with the too young sitters, though I don't know who did it.

[Luckers]

The Footdragging Five do pop to mind (as in the five Sitters in Salidar who are working for the Ajah Heads to reunite the Tower, the same ones behind the Too-Young Sitter Conspiracy). It would make sense for them to serve Egwene into Elaida's hands--it would be the most simple method of ending the division.

 

The only other possible source that i can think of is Nicola. She had a habit of listening to secrets, and her reaction to seeing Egwene was to curtsy and appoligise--which could be guilt for running away, or other things.

 

My guess is its the Footdragging Five.

[Piotr]

hmm, I didn't consider that possibility

 

But there are no direct clues right? I know the plan was held a big secret. Only Siuan and Leane are mentioned to have known about it - and Bodewhin.  Likely Gareth knew also.

I found it a bit strange Kairen - who was good at the specific weave - got killed, were there more reasons to have her killed (besides the Mecandes connection), or just coincidence...(is there such a thing ;))

Siuan also has her little talk with Lelaine after Egwene's capture and specifically mentions a reason for betrayal : hint hint?

Finally, with Egwene's leadership getting stronger, less 'lord of chaos'...

 

[Graendals favourite]

Oh but it was a surprise that Egwene was captured. Egwene told no one that she would replace Bodewhin. Whoever did it, simply intended for the operation of sealing the harbours to fail. Leane did as well as she did because of her cleverness in preparing the flows and inverting them before even coming in sight of the Walls.

[dholm]

The Hall is mentioned as having known of the plan. The 'Footdragging Five', as Luckers put it, are my primary suspects for that reason. They could not have known Egwene would be captured, though. That was an off-the-cuff decision on her part -- completely out of the blue.

 

Nicola couldn't have known about it; it was kept very hush-hush. I'm willing to bet wards against eavesdropping were kept up constantly whenever it was mentioned for that reason. While it's possible she could have overheard somehow... it just doesn't seem likely.

 

I dismiss Halima as a suspect mainly because I don't see how it would in any way benefit her -- especially considering her reaction to the event in KoD.

[Piotr]

so, it was a plan to stop the harbors from being blocked

 

but why would the footdragging five wanna prevent that

[Braus]

so, it was a plan to stop the harbors from being blocked

 

but why would the footdragging five wanna prevent that

 

Exactly i dont quite get that.

 

Anyway i cant really recall all the information that led up to the night when Egwene went. But i guess what matters is that.

 

Someone wanted the harbour plan to fail - or wanted a rebel sister to be captured and in that way maybe tense the situation further.

I cant remember the conversation in the carriage that Egwene were carried in back to the tower etc, but i guess they knew well in advance that someone was gonna go and do something with the chain, or the harbor.

 

id keep writing if i had remembered more about how the capturing was done, all i remember was that egwene went into the water. But this part of KOD is pretty much the part ive always skipped >.< in my "rereads", that is rereads of part i like.

[Majsju]

so, it was a plan to stop the harbors from being blocked

 

but why would the footdragging five wanna prevent that

 

It would give the rebels such an advantage that Egwene shortly should be able to remove Elaida on her own terms. The footdragging five wants a compromise, which is only possible as long as there is a stalemate between the two sides.

Egwene was never supposed to be caught up in this, so the losses the rebels would have suffered would be a novice, and Leane, who is considered a bit troublesome still by some of the sisters.

 

Of course, this reasoning could also be applied to Halima. She wants the conflict right where it is. Had the mission been successful, that would have changed the entire balance. And in a sense, Halima would have had even less reason than the footdragging five to believe Egwene would be involved.

 

RJ put a lot of effort in showing that Egwenes decision to take Bodes place was pretty much made on the spot. So much that there should be a reason for it, like the snitch not wanting Egwene herself to be caught.

[dholm]

Good point. I guess Halima is back on the table, then.

[Majsju]

Well, Halima sits on the edge of the table, dangling those fine legs...While the footdragging five are almost smack in the middle of the table.

[Piotr]

I can't remember reading the Hall knowing about the plan

 

there is a scene earlier where two sitters are observing Kairen while she is making cuendillar (Janya Frende and Salita Toranes, cot chp 17) but besides that...?

[dholm]

“The talks will go as they go,” Egwene said carefully. Romanda had opposed any sort of negotiations, spurious or not. And she knew what was to happen tonight. Keeping the Hall in the dark about that had seemed a needless slap in the face.

[Luckers]

Nicola couldn't have known about it; it was kept very hush-hush. I'm willing to bet wards against eavesdropping were kept up constantly whenever it was mentioned for that reason. While it's possible she could have overheard somehow... it just doesn't seem likely.

 

I'm inclined to agree, yet still its a possibility--for instance that Nicola chose that moment to defect is curious. And mistakes can be made, people slip up. Nicola has shown a skill for exploiting that.

 

Still, I do consider it unlikely.

 

so, it was a plan to stop the harbors from being blocked

 

but why would the footdragging five wanna prevent that

 

Their goal, at its core, was to reunite the Tower--and likely that was meant to be under Elaida. It's not so much that they support Elaida but rather that they believe the Tower must be unified--and when they set out that meant Elaida, and such origins bind their progression.

 

Maj is correct in saying they want a compromise, despite what I just said. They don't want Elaida to win anymore than they want Egwene too--they want reunification. The only way that can be done is if neither side have the upper hand. Nevertheless I still maintain that in their heads they see Elaida as the Amyrlin when this is done.

[Thorum]

Well, Halima sits on the edge of the table, dangling those fine legs...While the footdragging five are almost smack in the middle of the table.

 

Too bad she's a he.

[dholm]

Well, Halima sits on the edge of the table, dangling those fine legs...While the footdragging five are almost smack in the middle of the table.

 

Too bad she's a he.

 

Not anymore.

[Charlz Fel]

I was under the impression that Halima carefully arranged circumstances so that Egwene would go.  First, she Compelled Egwene.  I don't think it is coincidence that we are reminded, in this very same chapter, that "Someone who was Compelled did anything you ordered.  Anything.  And believed it was their own choice."  However, we have also seen another sort of Compulsion--the subtler sort in which the Compelled person has to find a reason for what they were supposed to do. To provide such a reason, Halima killed off enough sisters good at making cuendillar that a Two Rivers novice would have to go.  She then sent Sheriam in to suggest that Egwene might want to pardon another Two Rivers novice who helped Nicola escape:

 

When Sheriam left, Egwene found herself wondering what had brought the woman in the first place.  Could it have been just to point out that Larine was going to be punished? Surely not.  But she had said nothing else, apart from answering Egwene's questions.

 

And, in the end, Egwene made a last-minute decision to go seal the harbor herself, for the most obtuse of reasons; I am reminded of the reasons given by the sisters whom Verin Compelled to swear fealty to Rand.  Remember Cadsuane thinking about how flimsy those reasons were?

 

Mind you, certain coincidences worked out in Halima's favor, especially the fact that two of the sisters ahead of Bode were close friends of Cabriana.  However, I think Jordan was dropping quite a few hints here that Egwene was probably set up to make this decision.

 

Edit: changed Corianin to Cabriana.  Changed "balefire" to "cuendillar."

[Thor]

i like your post charlz fel :D

[Piotr]

in KoD, cpt 3, the meeting between the forsaken:

Mesaana complains to Aran'gar, why she/he (whatever) let Egwene go.

Aran'gar replies she listened in to the Hall meeting in TAR, and the uprising will not crumble, this satisfies Mesaana, all is according to her plan then.

 

Then, Aran'gar complains to Mesaana that she wants the girl (Egwene) back because without her, she/he has much weaker tools to work with.

Then Mesaana replies, this has always been part of her plan. She'll decide when and where the girl will be released.

 

So, I don't think Aran'gar is anywhere near the table, nor is Mesaana.

[Charlz Fel]

in KoD, cpt 3, the meeting between the forsaken:

Mesaana complains to Aran'gar, why she/he (whatever) let Egwene go.

Aran'gar replies she listened in to the Hall meeting in TAR, and the uprising will not crumble, this satisfies Mesaana, all is according to her plan then.

 

Then, Aran'gar complains to Mesaana that she wants the girl (Egwene) back because without her, she/he has much weaker tools to work with.

Then Mesaana replies, this has always been part of her plan. She'll decide when and where the girl will be released.

 

So, I don't think Aran'gar is anywhere near the table, nor is Mesaana.

 

That is indeed evidence against my theory.  But since the Forsaken are known to try to deceive one another, I don't think the evidence is conclusive.  Although we are in Aran'gar's PoV, the only part of the statement that gets confirmed thereby is that Aran'gar's anger is genuine.

 

I admit that, from what little we understand of Aran'gar's plan, her statement that she wants Egwene back as her most potent tool rings true; so far as we know, Aran'gar's only other "tools" are Delana and Sheriam.  But again, if you reread the last chapter of CoT ("What the Oath Rod Can Do"), I think you will see that either Egwene was Compelled or RJ was deliberately placing a red herring by hinting that she might have been.  If the latter, I also think this represents weak plotting; can anyone give a coherent explanation of Egwene's reasoning?  And why did Sheriam suggest that Egwene pardon Larine?

[dholm]

Your theory builds on the assumption that Sheriam is a tool of Halima's. That's not proven.

[Charlz Fel]

Your theory builds on the assumption that Sheriam is a tool of Halima's. That's not proven.

 

Someone has broken Sheriam, and straps her for apparent failures, e.g., failing to learn and report Egwene's plans.  Aran'gar seems to me by far the most likely culprit.

[dholm]

It's still an uncertainty, though. If that theory is disproven, your own has no basis.

[Charlz Fel]

It's still an uncertainty, though. If that theory is disproven, your own has no basis.

 

The theory would become far less plausible, certainly.  But I still think in that case it would be sub-par plotting for RJ.