Mat's Luck and Channeling

[Phariah]

ok seriously its not the dagger

dagger is an object of the shadow/evil/corruption , it is a piece of shadar logoth , a piece of Fain all u see is the blade corrupting an killing nothing stating another ability , Fain would have said so if it was he talks of it's ability to kill thats all.

Matt was alway's considered lucky that time w/ the gaurd was brought up as an un-lucky example it was never said he had infallible luck , as such as when Rand tells Verin "Matt is the lucky one " (how one friend would call another that he grew up with and has known to be lucky) when they were going to use the portal stone to travel to get to Falme

he gets the luck jump after he begins to accept he has a greater value in the pattern this this happens after he uses the Horn an sees the Heroes come forth an recognize Rand as LTT than when they needed the Banner and acknowledged Rand as the Dragon, and since the next time he is given a POV is after he has been healed that is it

Ta'veren not dagger and not channeling ;D

 

[dholm]

Mat realizes himself that it doesn't add up.

It adds up to the dagger. You have shown no good reason why we should ignore the evidence and think it something else.

Except that it makes no sense whatsoever. The dagger is a thing of corruption, of evil. Why would it provide Mat with luck? If the dagger provided the luck, why did it grow stronger when he was healed of it? It makes no sense.

 

We don't have to take everything at face value, especially when it doesn't make sense.

 

To sum up: 1. The dagger has no connection with luck whatsoever. 2. Ta'veren twist chance. 3. Mat is ta'veren.

 

Linking his luck strictly to the dagger is a post hoc fallacy.

It is a fact. It was the dagger. He finds the dagger, he gets lucky, he is removed from the dagger, he gets luckier. Two jumps, both linked ot the dagger, not to anything else. Not at all like Perrin or Rand.

The only connection is one of timing, and it could just as easily be a ta'veren growing stronger over time. Mat himself is not a good witness, what with the holes in his memory and all.

[Mr Ares]

ok seriously its not the dagger

Yes, it is. Don't just ignore what the books have to say.

Matt was alway's considered lucky

Yes, and he got luckier after picking up the dagger, then luckier still after being Healed.

 

Except that it makes no sense whatsoever.

To you. We haven't been given all the pieces of the puzzle, but you seem quite happy to toss out those we have been given.

 

1. The dagger has no connection with luck whatsoever.

Except Mat got luckier after getting it.

2. Ta'veren twist chance.

Mat didn't get luckier after becoming ta'veren, but after gaining the dagger. Nor did his luck improve again until he lost it, finally.

 

The only connection is one of timing, and it could just as easily be a ta'veren growing stronger over time.

Why should it grow stronger over time? Why should it grow stronger at two point both correlating with his gaining the dagger, and his being Healed of the dagger, and nothing in between?

Mat himself is not a good witness, what with the holes in his memory and all.

His memories seem fine on this issue.

[Phariah]

gimme a book or quote that says its the dagger some facts to back you up

you say the the books say it but u provide no revelant proof

[Durinax]

the timeline from the beginning to the end of TGH it shows that all the taveren only started to twist chance after leaving The Two Rivers since there is a lack of extreme chance during that time

[Dmitri]

gimme a book or quote that says its the dagger some facts to back you up

you say the the books say it but u provide no revelant proof

 

OK, give us a book or quote that says it's Mat's being ta'veren. Any facts to back you up.  ???

You can't? Oh, sure, because there's none.

 

And we have at least some evidence - Mat's POV, whare he thinks his luck increasing has to do with dagger.

 

Who is in better position? Not you.

[Hybrid]

The dagger is a thing of corruption, of evil. Why would it provide Mat with luck?

Everything from Shadar Logoth is corrupted, from the smallest pebble on up, according to Moiraine.  Just because it is corrupted, however, does not mean that its only purpose is corruption.  For example, the smallest pebble spreads the corruption, but the purpose of that pebble is not corruption - it's just a pebble tainted by Shadar Logoth.  The dagger may be connected to luck (Fain's certainly lucky enough), and it's one of the best explanations we have, thanks to Mat's evidence. 

 

Mat's luck works by affecting chance (and only chance) - anything with a random or uncontrollable element can be swayed to benefit him.  If there is no random or uncontrollable element, his luck won't help.  For example, Mat visited every tavern or inn on a couple of streets in TDR without finding Comar (the guy sent to kill Elayne and co.).  When he decided the wander into a random inn, he found Comar.

 

Ta'veren, on the other hand, sway the lives of those around them by affecting the weaving of the Pattern.  Rand could make Sea Folk shut up and agree with everything he said without bargaining, for example.  Perrin could make the Two Rivers farmers abandon their fortified farms on the spot.  Mat, as a relative nobody fleeing Cairhien, suddenly took control of an entire group of Tairen and Cairhienin soldiers.  That has nothing to do with chance, and everything to do with influencing people's lives and decisions.

[Thor]

so why is fain not extra lucky then?  why didn't he kill rand in far madding with his luck?

[Phariah]

there are so many quotes about Ta'veren manipulating chance not just lives  as said that LTT minted his own luck and Rand is equal if not greater than LTT, when they are going to take the portal stones to rhuidian Matt tosses the coin an Rand chooses before Matt saying that it had to work for him sooner or later

also ta'veren is explained as not only manipulating lives around him but also of manipulating the ta'veren to a set path

and as stated before the first time Matt has always been considered lucky

and we see him get lucky after he uses the horn an wakes up after being healed where is there a luck increase after he gets the dagger ?

and when he met the band that was chance he was trying to get outta there before fighting an was randomly dodging and the band wasnt where it was supposed to be he randomly came across them

 

[Hybrid]

so why is fain not extra lucky then?  why didn't he kill rand in far madding with his luck?

Fain failed to kill Rand only because Flinn was able to save him.  Fain was certainly lucky enough to get close to Rand and slash at him.

 

there are so many quotes about Ta'veren manipulating chance not just lives

Yes, there are.  And they do, but not in the way Mat's luck works.  Rand affects events around him so that people get both lucky and unlucky.  A child falls out of the second story of a building and walks off without a scratch whereas a street tile blows into a woman's dining room and kills her while she's eating, is one of the examples, I believe.  Mat's luck, on the other hand, always benefits him and only affects him.

[dholm]

1. The dagger has no connection with luck whatsoever.

Except Mat got luckier after getting it.

You have yet to prove that connection. All you can point at is the timing, which can be explained in other ways.

 

I can state just as categorically that Mat got luckier over time, and it is just as supported in the text as your version.

 

2. Ta'veren twist chance.

Mat didn't get luckier after becoming ta'veren, but after gaining the dagger. Nor did his luck improve again until he lost it, finally.

Let's see. Mat becomes ta'veren a few short weeks before meeting Moiraine. There's nothing that says he couldn't have become lucky in this time without noticing it. He gains the dagger a few days after (a week, maybe?), at Shadar Logoth. Again, nothing that says he simply didn't notice the luck -- especially as we see zero indications of it, even after he gets the dagger.

 

The only connection is one of timing, and it could just as easily be a ta'veren growing stronger over time.

Why should it grow stronger over time? Why should it grow stronger at two point both correlating with his gaining the dagger, and his being Healed of the dagger, and nothing in between?

Prove that it is irrevocably linked to the dagger, and I would concede you have a point. You can't, though. The only connection that can be ascertained is one of timing, which means nothing.

 

Mat himself is not a good witness, what with the holes in his memory and all.

His memories seem fine on this issue.

Oh, really? Allow me to quote the relevant section in full:

He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, his memories from Emond’s Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving. Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed. His mother had always seemed to know what he was up to, and Nynaeve able to see through whatever defenses he put up. But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky. The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth. He remembered playing at dice back home, with a sharp-eyed, skinny man who worked for a merchant come down from Baerlon to buy tabac. He remembered the strapping his father had given him, too, on learning Mat owed the man a silver mark and four pence.

He can remember always being lucky... except he wasn't. So yeah... His memories are "fine".

 

We never see Mat as lucky prior to him gambling in Fal Dara. It could just as easily have been him being ta'veren as it could be the dagger, especially since he vehemently refuses to have anything to do with being ta'veren. We know ta'veren twist chance; we have no proof whatsoever that the dagger can affect anything in that regard. We never see Fain mention this rather amazing quality.

 

And... again... how can the luck come from the dagger when it becomes stronger after he is severed from it? Please, explain this.

 

The dagger explanation makes no sense whatsoever... and Mat is ta'veren, who twist chance around them. The conclusion is obvious.

[a pale tanned lover]

When Mats luck was at it's highest when he had too get out of Tar Valon, I think if you check the book its because he had too be somewhere, something too do with being ta'veren, he got too where he had too be and I'm pretty sure it's because of ta'veren not because of a dagger.

[mb]

Slight chance of Mat's luck being due to taverenness alone.  Perrin & Rand are also taveren and they seem less lucky than Mat.

 

Since we do not see Mat gambling before leaving Two Rivers nor during their stay in Baerlon (the two most probable times after becoming taveren), we do not know if he would have been lucky before the dagger.

 

[Durinax]

one of mat's pov's states he lost some money against a merchants guard playing dice before and lost.

 

Mat's luck is a manifestation of his being taveren, like Perrins is that people are more likely to be swayed by what he says, and Rands is just random chance

[a pale tanned lover]

If Mat was that "lucky" then how come all his luck has pushed his towards being someone he never wanted to be. Answers its own question really.

[Hybrid]

Mat's luck is a manifestation of his being taveren, like Perrins is that people are more likely to be swayed by what he says, and Rands is just random chance

Incorrect.  All ta'veren influence people's actions by their presence, not just their words.  That's the definition of ta'veren.  Perrin is not the only one to do so... I brought up Rand's bargain with the Sea Folk earlier.

 

The difference between Mat's luck and the ta'veren effect is that the ta'veren effect affects everything for both good and bad, whereas Mat's luck only affects him and only for good.

[Cursedmage]

In understanding the catalyst in Matt's increasingly ability with luck maybe we should look towards Rand.  Rand's ability with ta'veren increased as the story unfolded.  Take into account how much his ta'veren effected the Two Rivers right before the eye of the world, and how his ta'veren effected Cairhien much later in the books.  It could be that for every process of the prophecies of the dragon rand might get more robust with his ta'veren abilities.  Since Matt is tied up with the dragon and the prophecy, maybe his luck and ta'veren went up whenever Rand completed a part of the prophecy.  Or possibly it just increases every time Rand takes a step closer to TG and pulls both Perrin and Matt with him.

[a pale tanned lover]

The difference between Mat's luck and the ta'veren effect is that the ta'veren effect affects everything for both good and bad, whereas Mat's luck only affects him and only for good.

 

The major flaw in that is that it doesn't affect him for any good that he wants, he's being forced into something that goes against his nature, if he was lucky then it would be lucky in the way he wanted it too be. You might as well say he's not Ta'veren and that the wheel of time and the pattern have no influence over a dagger.

 

Mat is not as strong a Ta'veren as Rand either so its doubtful him being so would have the same effect on such a range as Rand, we see no evidence of this with Perrrin either but both get what the pattern gives them.

[Moghedian]

You might as well say that he's not Ta'veren and that the Wheel of Time

 

Fixed! ;D

[a pale tanned lover]

You might as well say that he's not Ta'veren and that the Wheel of Time

 

Fixed! ;D

:-[ really should have paid attention at school

 

[Telzen]

How come every time this comes up no one mentions the dice rattling in Mat's head? Funny cause I don't remember Perrin or Rand ever having that. It doesn't matter why the dagger gives Mat luck, just that evidence shows it is what causes it.

[a pale tanned lover]

How come every time this comes up no one mentions the dice rattling in Mat's head? Funny cause I don't remember Perrin or Rand ever having that. It doesn't matter why the dagger gives Mat luck, just that evidence shows it is what causes it.

 

What evidence do you have apart from circumstances, considering we had no POV's from Mat before.

[Phariah]

um.. Perrin doesnt have a dice rattle he has a puzzle with pieces that fall into place in his mind ..and well Rand does have LTT so he has enough on his mind ..

so rattle isnt any proof of the dagger in fact seeing as Perrin has the puzzle id say the rattle is proof of Mat's ta'veren instead

[Mr Ares]

gimme a book or quote that says its the dagger some facts to back you up you say the the books say it but u provide no revelant proof

Except for the quote I posted in the thread already. Reading helps. It's in TDR, if you want to look it up for yourself.

 

so why is fain not extra lucky then?  why didn't he kill rand in far madding with his luck?

Fain is fairly lucky, but even Mat's luck doesn't always win (it comes in waves), and he was luckiest after being Healed. Fain is still connected to the dagger, and therefore should not be as lucky.

 

and as stated before the first time Matt has always been considered lucky

and we see him get lucky after he uses the horn an wakes up after being healed where is there a luck increase after he gets the dagger ?

Read the thread. And learn english. He was lucky, then luckier after finding the dagger, and luckier still after the Healing, per his own pov. Not after the Horn. And we see him being lucky early in TGH, before the Horn.

 

I can state just as categorically that Mat got luckier over time' date=' and it is just as supported in the text as your version.[/quote']No, it isn't. It is not backed up by Mat's povs, for one thing.

 

Prove that it is irrevocably linked to the dagger, and I would concede you have a point.

So I have to prove my point in order for it to be valid, but you just have to raise the possibility of yours existing, even when supported by less evidence, and I'm supposed to accept it? Provide an RJ statement saying that it was ta'veren, and absolutely not the dagger and I'll concede you have a point. After all, if you can set impossible standards...

 

His memories seem fine on this issue.

Oh, really? Allow me to quote the relevant section in full:

He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, his memories from Emond’s Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving. Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed. His mother had always seemed to know what he was up to, and Nynaeve able to see through whatever defenses he put up. But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky. The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth. He remembered playing at dice back home, with a sharp-eyed, skinny man who worked for a merchant come down from Baerlon to buy tabac. He remembered the strapping his father had given him, too, on learning Mat owed the man a silver mark and four pence.

He can remember always being lucky... except he wasn't. So yeah... His memories are "fine".

I really don't understand your point here. He remembers that he was always lucky, and that he got luckier after taking the dagger. That's what it says, quite clearly, something that doesn't not support your theory, but mine. His memories are clear on the issue. Being lucky doesn't mean you'll always win, and if you were that lucky you couldn't have improved luck. So all this shows is that he was lucky, but he didn't always win. What is the issue? And you are using stuff he does remember to prove his memory is unreliable? This is stuff he does remember, which harms your point about his memories. This wasn't lost in those holes. I'm really not seeing what you're getting at.

 

We never see Mat as lucky prior to him gambling in Fal Dara.

Doesn't mean it didn't happen when we didn't see. In fact, Mat is of the opinion that he got luckier after the dagger, but not after leaving the TR. Quite specific.

 

And... again... how can the luck come from the dagger when it becomes stronger after he is severed from it? Please, explain this.

How many times do you need to be told we don't know that yet? We do know it was the dagger.

 

I'm pretty sure it's because of ta'veren not because of a dagger.

Funny, Mat is pretty sure it was the dagger. Why are you so intent on ignoring the books?

 

If Mat was that "lucky" then how come all his luck has pushed his towards being someone he never wanted to be. Answers its own question really.

Mat's luck works on random things. As already mentioned by Hybrid, had you bothered to read the thread. That's why he has more success at dice than at cards. Mat's destiny is not random, and therefore his luck cannot change it. Being a general, marrying Tuon, these were not random events.

 

um.. Perrin doesnt have a dice rattle he has a puzzle with pieces that fall into place in his mind ..and well Rand does have LTT so he has enough on his mind ..

Neither of those being at all akin to the dice in Mat's head, and therefore not relevant. The dice are unique to Mat.

[Phariah]

LMAO learn english u so funny MR Ares  :D

but seriously u have not shown any proof of luck after he recieved the dagger so that is  a non factor

and Mat being lucky is his ta'veren ,randomness / chance

and again Mat has always been lucky  this is before he goes gambling in WT an gets his mega luck going

TDR  page 228 talking about his dice " with these , his 2 marks would become enough to take him away from Tar Valon "

page 285 " from the first blow, he knew that luck, or skill , or whatever had brought him this far, was still there "

page 329 " a night with the dice would put him aboard a ship in the morning with a full purse "

these are all said with a matter of fact attitude of him knowing he is lucky and has always been

than TDR page 343 " he had always won more than he lost, as far as he could remember "

also from Rand to Verin when they are taking the portal stones to Falme " Mat is the lucky one "

 

and than  u have Mats dagger statement you  use out of context , Mat was visited by  a darkfriend AS he thinks ( Lanfear ) and Siuan both of whom are tryng to use him an manipulate him , he is nervous about being tied to the Dragon an still denying being ta'veren

pages 344 and 345 TDR .. "the dark one's own luck ", another man growled

Matt than says " I..I..I don't like anybody saying things like that about me.I'm no darkfriend " ( Burn me, not the dark one's luck. not that ! oh,light , did that bloody dagger do something to me ? ) he is making a guess he has no idea at all  , he is scared  an confused and he  uses what limited knowledge he has to make a guess to try an settle himself down ( he would rather it be a tainted dagger than be the dark one )