Mat's Luck and Channeling

[Derfenrirwolv]

I don't know if this has ever been brought up, but could mat's luck be related to people channeling at him?

 

In the dragon reborn, one of the devices stolen by the black ajah is a circle of dice that causes dice to act oddly when its channeled at.

 

When Mat is healed of his link to the dagger by as much of the one power as had ever been channeled into a human being, his luck was beyond phenomenal. He won EVERY dice toss in a long night of gambling. 

 

Since Mat acquired his fox-head pendant, his luck hasn't been AS good. He even comments on loosing at dice with someone (Taleasean)? 

 

 

 

[a pale tanned lover]

Possible, although being ta'veren is the most likely

 

Would be good to see Rand, Mat and Perrin having a game of dice together  :D

[Mr Ares]

Mat's luck grew after he came into contact with the Shadar Logoth dagger, and then grew again to the incredible extent we've seen in the books after he was Healed of its malign influence. So, most likely it was the dagger.

[Durinax]

Mat perrin and rand all playing dice it would land on one edge every time lol.

 

it is good that mat doesnt have flawless luck anymore, winning 100% of the time is an easy way to get into a fight.

[mb]

I don't know if this has ever been brought up, but could mat's luck be related to people channeling at him?

The Aes Sedai channeling at Mat seems to have nothing or very little to do with Mat's luck.

Mat's luck seems applied to gambling & battles, nothing else.

 

Like another poster, the channeling would be more due to Mat's taverenness.

 

[Phariah]

Matt's luck would be based off being ta'veren ( he has always been considered lucky as Rand states to Verin when they were gonna use the Portal stone ) his luck increases after blowing the horn an beginning to accept being ta'veren ( although he denied it  it was a thought and later when he accepted he was ta'veren did the luck abate  somewhat, imo it was like the Pattern was forcing him to accept it  ;D lol )

 

 

[Derfenrirwolv]

 

Like another poster, the channeling would be more due to Mat's taverenness.

 

 

Yet perrin, Mat and rand are all ta'vern. Perrins luck has never been all that great except for him being more inspirational than he felt. Rand is a MUCH stronger ta'vern, but he doesn't have luck per say, he just tosses probability out to the extremes both good and bad. Mats luck has also waxed and waned over time.

 

If it was tied to his dagger, he would have had the most luck when he had it, not after he'd just lost it.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

it is good that mat doesnt have flawless luck anymore, winning 100% of the time is an easy way to get into a fight.

Mat's luck always came in waves. At high points he always wins, but it's not always that good.

 

Mat's luck seems applied to gambling & battles, nothing else.

Mat's luck can affect anything random.

 

Matt's luck would be based off being ta'veren, his luck increases after blowing the horn an beginning to accept being ta'veren

No, per his own thoughts is increased first after getting the dagger, and again after being Healed from it. We see evidence of this in the books, in Shienar he is very lucky, and his success against Hurin on the way to Tar Valon means they only gamble for coppers, then not for money at all, because Mat was quite capable of winning a string of tosses in a row. His luck only became superhuman after the Healing, but it was very good while he was joined to the dagger.

 

If it was tied to his dagger, he would have had the most luck when he had it, not after he'd just lost it.

I'm just telling you what the books say. Mat himself tells us that it jumps after he gets the dagger, then again after he is Healed. You can debate the whys and wherefores to your hearts content, but it was the dagger.

[Luckers]

RJ was asked this, and said no.

[Dmitri]

RJ was asked this, and said no.

 

To what does his "No" apply? Can't tell from your phrase.  :)

 

 

[a pale tanned lover]

Quote from: Derfenrirwolv on July 09, 2009, 04:10:09 AM

If it was tied to his dagger, he would have had the most luck when he had it, not after he'd just lost it.

I'm just telling you what the books say. Mat himself tells us that it jumps after he gets the dagger, then again after he is Healed. You can debate the whys and wherefores to your hearts content, but it was the dagger.

 

So being Ta'veren then.

[dholm]

I'm just telling you what the books say. Mat himself tells us that it jumps after he gets the dagger, then again after he is Healed. You can debate the whys and wherefores to your hearts content, but it was the dagger.

Because Mat can't be wrong about anything, uh?

 

It seems to me that Mat's luck comes from being ta'veren, and it has simply gotten stronger over time. He first truly notices it after he's Healed from the dagger, but that is also the first time we have a point of view from him -- and, notably, he has forgotten quite a bit at that time. That's also when he claims always having been lucky, but then contradicts himself by remembering losing to a merchant's guard when he was little (and getting strapped for it).

 

Who says being ta'veren has to affect people equally?

 

We can't tell whether or not Mat's was lucky prior to TGH, mainly because he never did anything where his luck would have been evident. The dicing in Shienar is the first time we see Mat gambling. He only became ta'veren a few short weeks prior to Moiraine's arrival in the Two Rivers.

 

The dagger just doesn't make sense. Why would it have anything to do with luck? Why would his luck increase after he's gotten rid of it? There are some answers, but they do not fit as well as him being ta'veren.

[Luckers]

RJ was asked this, and said no.

 

To what does his "No" apply? Can't tell from your phrase.  :)

 

 

 

Sorry, the connection between the ter'angreal dice and Mat's luck.

[Dmitri]

RJ was asked this, and said no.

To what does his "No" apply? Can't tell from your phrase.  :)

Sorry, the connection between the ter'angreal dice and Mat's luck.

Ah, that one I remember.

 

Still, it's really not clear at all what Mat's luck is connected with.

If we take the dagger, it's only Mat's opinion which makes some prove - but what's the connection between the dagger and luck in general? In what way does it affect Mat's luck? I can't see it, although other supposed reasons seem even less credible.  ???

 

[Mr Ares]

So being Ta'veren then.

Absolutely not.

 

Because Mat can't be wrong about anything, uh?

Because disregarding evidence, with none to the contrary, is pretty daft. Evidence says it was the dagger, no ta'veren, not a gift from the Creator, not from some guy called Keith. It was the dagger. He started off fairly lucky, then he became very lucky after getting the dagger, then he gained superhuman luck after being Healed of the dagger's influence.

[Thor]

you dont' need constant luck anyways.

 

it's in fact better to have luck in waves.  winning when it counts is what matters.  liek in blackjack, when you are on a crest, you need to seriously dash and put heavy bets, and when it's bad bet only the minimum.  that's the way to win.

 

suppose it might be kind of similar with wars.  use tiny attrition when things dont' go your way, and pull off massive moves when odds favour you.

[dholm]

Because Mat can't be wrong about anything, uh?

Because disregarding evidence, with none to the contrary, is pretty daft. Evidence says it was the dagger, no ta'veren, not a gift from the Creator, not from some guy called Keith. It was the dagger. He started off fairly lucky, then he became very lucky after getting the dagger, then he gained superhuman luck after being Healed of the dagger's influence.

You have one fact: The luck got stronger over time. You draw a conclusion, which is NOT a fact: It seemingly coincides with the dagger's influence.

 

Prove the last point, and I might agree with you.

 

Mat is not a reliable witness. He has amnesia when he first discovers the extent of his luck, right after the dagger's influence is Healed. Second, he claims he's always been lucky, then proceeds to contradict himself.

 

He ista'veren, and one of the things we KNOW ta'veren influences is chance. The dagger was a corrupting influence; it had nothing to do with luck whatsoever. It makes no sense whatsoever that it gives Mat luck.

 

Next you're going to claim Rand only began channeling because he got Tam's sword, or Perrin only became a wolfbrother because he got the axe. It makes about as much sense.

[Durinax]

mat was not lucky to begin with, I recall something about mat getting a beating for losing at dice with a merchants guard

[a pale tanned lover]

Being ta'veren supplies Mat with the luck he needs to get to where he is supposed too be, Rand, Mat and Perrin have different ways of getting too where they need to go. Thinking that the dagger has created Mat's luck is like saying being ta'veren has less impact on him then a dagger, look up what being ta'veren means  :D

[arkinia]

I think all the ta'veren have extraordinary luck. It is just more relevant to Mat because he is the gambler. Perrin has even commented on his own luck related to being ta'veren before. I bet if Rand went to a tavern (I bet you read this as ta'veren at first) and started rolling some dice we'd see some extraordinary results too. Now if he ever would is a different issue. The coinage of "Mat's luck" is only necessary to his character because he is the one gambling all the time.

 

You could even look at it as symbol for Rand's and Perrin's luck, it's easier to understand Mat's because it is gambling, something everyone associates luck with. All three get done what they are prophesied etc. to get done. Mat has his luck with gambling because if he was in tremendous debt all the time it might propose some problems, now how interesting a plot that would add to the story we don't know, but if they all ran around with bad luck we would have some pretty unpromising saviors.

[a pale tanned lover]

I think all the ta'veren have extraordinary luck. It is just more relevant to Mat because he is the gambler. Perrin has even commented on his own luck related to being ta'veren before. I bet if Rand went to a tavern (I bet you read this as ta'veren at first) and started rolling some dice we'd see some extraordinary results too. Now if he ever would is a different issue. The coinage of "Mat's luck" is only necessary to his character because he is the one gambling all the time.

 

You could even look at it as symbol for Rand's and Perrin's luck, it's easier to understand Mat's because it is gambling, something everyone associates luck with. All three get done what they are prophesied etc. to get done. Mat has his luck with gambling because if he was in tremendous debt all the time it might propose some problems, now how interesting a plot that would add to the story we don't know, but if they all ran around with bad luck we would have some pretty unpromising saviors.

 

Thank you for explaining what I was trying to grasp at saying  8)

[Mr Ares]

You have one fact: The luck got stronger over time. You draw a conclusion, which is NOT a fact: It seemingly coincides with the dagger's influence.

You don't even have that. And it is Mat that draws the conclusion. We are given the answer in the text. Why disregard it?

 

Second, he claims he's always been lucky, then proceeds to contradict himself.

No, he doesn't. Just because you're lucky, doesn't mean you'll always win. He was lucky, then he was luckier after taking the dagger, and then luckier still after being Healed.Not growing over time, jumping, both jumps linked with events related ot the dagger, finding it and being Healed of its influence.

 

Next you're going to claim Rand only began channeling because he got Tam's sword, or Perrin only became a wolfbrother because he got the axe. It makes about as much sense.

No, actually, those things make less sense. Because neither Perrin's wolfbrotherhood, nor Rand's channeling are ever linked to their respective weapons, nor do we see increases in their abilities at times that would relate to incidents with those weapons - Rand's channeling sickness, for example, does not come after occasions when he had used his sword. Mat's luck does. "He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, his memories from Emond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving...But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky. The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth." The luck came after SL, not after becoming ta'veren, leaving the TR, or any other event. You can make excuses about his memories if you want, but we have our answer right there in black and white. It was the dagger. What he does remember is quite clear on that.

 

mat was not lucky to begin with, I recall something about mat getting a beating for losing at dice with a merchants guard

He was lucky to begin with. Being lucky does not mean you'll always win.

[dholm]

He lists far more than that one episode. Mat realizes himself that it doesn't add up.

 

You haven't proven that it is connected to the dagger. Neither has Mat, for that matter. His testimony is suspect.

[Derfenrirwolv]

Linking his luck strictly to the dagger is a post hoc fallacy. Just because his luck developed sometime after he found the dagger doesn't automatically mean that the dagger caused it. Everyone developed their "thing" as time went on. Mats luck/memories, Rands channeling, Perrin's dreams and wolf brother abilities.

 

He had the dagger for most of the first book. His luck wasn't extraordinary.

 

At the begining of the great hunt he was gambling, but it was just passed off as normal luck

 

When he's on the road to tar valon, before he got too sick to sit up, he was just very lucky, not winning EVERY throw. If the dagger was the cause of his luck , this is when it should have been at its strongest, when he'd had it the longest.

 

His first night out in Tar Valon he was INSANELY lucky. EVERY toss of the dice went his way. What happened there? If it was the dagger, he should have been at his luckiest when he had it on the way to tar valon just before he got sick. His luck was at its maximum just after he'd just had more one power channeled into him than had been wielded since the breaking.

 

When is mat's luck specifically mentioned to be wearing off? When he lost some gold crowns to Nelsean in ebou dar... after he's had the foxhead pendant for a while.

 

As to the dice ter angreal, do you have a link of what RJ said about it? I don't mean that the ter angreal caused mats luck. What i mean is that it seems to be literarily linked to mat. Its mentioned by Elayne saying "I bet mat would love this". The ter angreal hasn't been seen or mentioned since (unless you count the dice as mats chapter symbol) so why mention it then? I think its a clue. 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Mat realizes himself that it doesn't add up.

It adds up to the dagger. You have shown no good reason why we should ignore the evidence and think it something else.

 

Linking his luck strictly to the dagger is a post hoc fallacy.

It is a fact. It was the dagger. He finds the dagger, he gets lucky, he is removed from the dagger, he gets luckier. Two jumps, both linked ot the dagger, not to anything else. Not at all like Perrin or Rand.

 

When he's on the road to tar valon, before he got too sick to sit up, he was just very lucky, not winning EVERY throw.

Yes, and he himself comments on this. He was luckier after finding the dagger than he was before it, then he was luckier still after losing it. The two jumps in his luck are both related ot the dagger.

If the dagger was the cause of his luck , this is when it should have been at its strongest, when he'd had it the longest.

No. It is not stated to grow over time, for one thing, it jumps. First after finding it, again after the Healing. We have no reason to believe it would increase over time. Just because you imagine it works in a particular way, doesn't mean it does. The evidence in the books shows him getting luckier after he finds the dagger, and luckier still after he is Healed. That is the evidence RJ gave us. Which leads us to the quite reasonable conclusion that it was the dagger, and the not-at-all-reasonable conclusion that it was simething else.

 

If it was the dagger, he should have been at his luckiest when he had it on the way to tar valon just before he got sick.

Why? Because you say that is how it works.

 

When is mat's luck specifically mentioned to be wearing off?

I don't know, would you care to provide a quote? I found reference to his luck running in waves, but not to wearing off.