Moriane's Role in the New Books

[a pale tanned lover]

You have not provided a reason to lie that is not also a reason to tell the truth

You have not provided a reason to tell the truth that is not also a reason to lie

And everything else she said was true.

Everything else was only her admitting her name.

 

[mb]

Lews Therin in Rand's head is a form of madness.

And yes, the Taint causes madness.

 

Yet the Taint is not the only cause of madness in characters, and it might not have been the only cause that contributed in Rand's case.

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Lews Therin in Rand's head is a form of madness.

And yes, the Taint causes madness.

 

Yet the Taint is not the only cause of madness in characters, and it might not have been the only cause that contributed in Rand's case.

 

 

True, Rand does have other things in his life that could cause him to go mad. Maybe the Taint acted in compound with some of the other things that could have caused Rand to go mad, like stress, extreme prolonged pain (the wounds in his side), when he was stuck in that box, having 3 girlfriends.

[Luckers]

Ok the first thing is to get away from the idea of madness or insanity. There is no state that is 'mad' no state that is 'insane'--not because there arn't people who are mad, but because those states vary so widely. Concider schitzophrenics--everyone hears voices in their heads. These are just our own thoughts, usually from that perspective, and thats helpful. It's when people go over from hearing their thoughts to hearing thoughts that they feel like come from somewhere else that it becomes problematic.

 

In effect, what we are talking about is not madness but mental instability. Or, in the endgame, unstable minds. Minds that hear those voices and don't rationally realise that they are their own thoughts--whereupon the voices multiple and go from being the occaisional harmless background noise to constant and forceful influences.

 

I make this distinction specifically. The Taint is not a type of madness. What it does is catalyse pre-existing mental weaknesses into becoming real problems--there's even psychological studies that show pre-dispositions towards specific mental problems relating to specific issues. This is why we see such a variety of 'madnesses' in the men who can channel--from those who hear voices to those who regress to childhood (like Mor) to those who have vivid hallucinations (like the fellow with the spiders) and also why there is such a degree of difference in the time between when the madness manifests (from days to year). It all depends on the mind in question.

 

This is why these 'insanities' did not simply disapear following the removal of the Taint. The Taint was not the madness itself, it had simply caused the underlying problem to present itself. Without that catalyst the problem is still there.

 

Which brings us to the issue at hand--Rand's madness. It was caused by the Taint, but the manifestation is completely real. People in this world occaisionally hear past life voices, and Rand apparently was pre-disposed to this issue, very possibly because he was one of the bound heroes and is Lews Therin Reborn. The stress of his life would definately have added to this.

 

The Taint began to boulder rolling, and even continued to push it--but Rand's life and mental health was like the gravity that kept it rolling--and could still keep it rolling despite the lack of a pusher.

[Mr Ares]

You have not provided a reason to tell the truth that is not also a reason to lie

Why should I? It makes more sense for her to be telling the truth, given everything we know about the taint.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

So basically what your saying Luckers, is that the Taint is a madness "inducer"? Like what I said a few posts back? =D?

[Luckers]

Yes, amongst other stuff that was what I was saying.

[Cherise]

...if Rand realised that he wasn't mad and LTT was real then he would be more dangerous to their existence than he was before.

 

I would say that's a great reason why the forsaken would lie to Rand and say he was mad. It serves their purposes.

 

 

Yes!  And it is so frustrating!

To sum it up, this is what I think is going on, too:

 

Lews Therin really is in Rand's head.

Rand needs Lews Therin's knowledge in order to defeat the Dark One.

The forsaken's tactic is to make Rand afraid to listen to Lews Therin.

 

I do think Moiraine will be the one to defeat this tactic of the Forsaken.

 

Sorry, I don't have the time to look up all the evidence that makes me think this. One that comes to mind, though, is after the horn is blown, all the heroes of the horn address Lews Therin as if he is there.

[a pale tanned lover]

Why should I? It makes more sense for her to be telling the truth, given everything we know about the taint.

We don't know what effect the Taint has had on Rand, you say LTT in Rand's head, I disagree and have given evidence to support why Semi has more reason to lie. Logain has been exposed to the taint longer but shows no sign of taint induced madness.

 

All three of the main characters who are Ta'veren have different things in their head, LTT, Wolves and Dice, each one representing who they are.

[Hybrid]

Logain has been exposed to the taint longer but shows no sign of taint induced madness.

Irrelevant.  Fedwin Morr had not been exposed to the taint for very long at all when he went mad.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

It's like what Luckers said,

What it does is catalyse pre-existing mental weaknesses into becoming real problems--there's even psychological studies that show pre-dispositions towards specific mental problems relating to specific issues. This is why we see such a variety of 'madnesses' in the men who can channel--from those who hear voices to those who regress to childhood (like Mor) to those who have vivid hallucinations (like the fellow with the spiders) and also why there is such a degree of difference in the time between when the madness manifests (from days to year). It all depends on the mind in question.

 

What I get from that lengthy explanation, and correct me if I'm getting the wrong message here, is that the Taint magnifies already unstable parts of the mind, turning them from minor or no problem, into major problems.

[a pale tanned lover]

Irrelevant.  Fedwin Morr had not been exposed to the taint for very long at all when he went mad.

 

Yes thats true, My point is regardless of what anyone has posted so far, the only evidence anyone has for LTT being caused by the taint is because of what Semi said and I've already given my argument against that. I agree with what Luckers said as far in if it was true then his theory makes complete sense with regards to Rand, but I don't believe LTT is caused by the taint and there isn't any evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Mr Ares]

We don't know what effect the Taint has had on Rand, you say LTT in Rand's head, I disagree and have given evidence to support why Semi has more reason to lie.

No, you have not given more reason for her to lie.

Logain has been exposed to the taint longer but shows no sign of taint induced madness.

So? One guy went mad on his first day.

 

All three of the main characters who are Ta'veren have different things in their head, LTT, Wolves and Dice, each one representing who they are.

And all have them for different reasons - Perrin is a wolfbrother, Mat's is related to his luck, while Rand's is due to the taint.

 

the only evidence anyone has for LTT being caused by the taint is because of what Semi said.

That's not true at all. What Semi said is the final nail in the coffin, what takes it from being very likely to a dead cert.

[Cherise]

All three of the main characters who are Ta'veren have different things in their head, LTT, Wolves, and Dice, each one representing who they are.

 

Yup, Mat shows at least as many signs of 'madness' as Rand. It is not madness, in either of them.  It is the Pattern finding a way to give them what they need to know in order to defeat the DO.

 

Moiraine put it this way: the old blood sings in these folks from Emond's Field.

 

I, too, believe the same is true with Rand having LTT in his head. I see this the same way you do, Pale Tanned:

 

LTT is really in Rand's head. Rand needs to start listening to LTT. Rand should have listened to LTT and killed Taim when he had the chance. The Forsaken are lying to Rand, telling him LTT is not really there, that this is a sign Rand is going mad.

[a pale tanned lover]

That's not true at all. What Semi said is the final nail in the coffin, what takes it from being very likely to a dead cert.

The final nail? shame we were using screws

So? One guy went mad on his first day.

Still doesn't prove LTT is taint induced.

And all have them for different reasons - Perrin is a wolfbrother, Mat's is related to his luck, while Rand's is due to the taint.

Your arguing in another thread that Mat's luck has nothing to do with being Ta'veren, and there is no solid proof LTT is caused by the taint.

No, you have not given more reason for her to lie.

I have.

 

Mr Ares I see alot of your posts and respect alot of what you say even when you say things to just wind people up to make them bite, its not your fault that you don't realise your wrong.

I, too, believe the same is true with Rand having LTT in his head. I see this the same way you do, Pale Tanned:

Careful, a lot of the old timers in here have discussed this and all come to a conclusion they are quite happy with, and argue on about the same thing which is "semi said" and like any old timers are stuck in their ways ;D

 

 

[Cherise]

 

I, too, believe the same is true with Rand having LTT in his head. I see this the same way you do, Pale Tanned:

 

 

Careful, a lot of the old-timers in here have discussed this and all come to a conclusion they are quite happy with. They argue on about the same thing which is "Semi said..."  Like any old-timers, they are stuck in their ways. ;D

 

I have been in other WOT forums where the old-timers ostracize and call people horrible names for not agreeing with them.

 

DM is not nearly so scary. I'll survive. So I assert again:

 

LTT is really in Rand's head.

Rand needs to start listening to LTT.

Rand should have listened to LTT and killed Taim when he had the chance.

The Forsaken are lying to Rand, telling him LTT is not really there.

The Forsaken don't want Rand to know what LTT knows.

 

Back on topic:

 

I think Moiraine will help Rand see all this, and gain the knowledge that LTT has and that Rand needs to defeat the Dark One.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Yup, Mat shows at least as many signs of 'madness' as Rand.

Such as? Emotional isolation? Indifference towards his own ohysical well being, to the extent he doesn't care that he has just lost an extremity, save that this will necessitate relearning the sword? Voices in his head?

 

The Forsaken are lying to Rand, telling him LTT is not really there, that this is a sign Rand is going mad.

Actually, Semi said he is really there, and this is a sign of him going mad. As for listening to LTT, the man is mad. He rants at great length about Ilyena. I fail to see how that would help at all. And LTT advised killing more than just Taim - try all the Asha'man. I'm sure the Shadow would heartily approve of him slaughtering one of his best assets in the upcoming struggle.

 

Plenty of words, saying nothing at all.

Paraphrased.

[Cherise]

And LTT advised killing more than just Taim - try all the Asha'man. I'm sure the Shadow would heartily approve of him slaughtering one of his best assets in the upcoming struggle.

 

 

All 200 of Taim's ashamen will be fighting with the Shadow, against Rand.

 

We will see if the existance of the "good" ashamen outweighs this.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Well there are 1000 Asha'man (and by that I mean full Asha'man, Dedicated, and Soldiers), and about 200 of those are Darkfriend with Taim that have been raised full Asha'man.

[muddasssir]

well hi guys i wonder if u know anything abt hindu mythology this whole seven thing and re-incarnations are very much a part of hindu mythology so point im trying to make here is that some years ago some ppl put together a group of shrinks to study re-incarnation through hypnosis to make them remember their prior lives i don't exactly remember who headed that group but i m trying to piece together this theory on the basis of both of these afore mentioned facts

here goes nothing ok my theory is that flesh carries no memories so all that can carry all those memories forward is soul and since Rand is LTT re-incarnated the whole point if LTT is present or not is moot because in essence Rand is continuation of LTT he is picking up from where LTT left so there is no discontinuity also i have also wondered that if a woman is not trained either she dies or blocks her self in some way why doesn't it happens in men i don't remember ever having read anything abt it any where so essentially what i m saying is that voices they hear and they attribute to their prev reincarnations might well be a defence mechanism akin to female block also men r not the only ones who r recovering lost talents after all NY's healing was also practised during AOL Elayne is making Ter angreal and egwene is making cuendillar why it can't be knowledge drifting across age barrier only because they r trained they can accept it but because men r wilders they invent these other persona's to hide behind oh its that mad man i m sane in other words SPLIT PERSONALITY if it rings a bell & if my memory serves me right Semi said smthg to effect "that even Grae can't achieve re integration if other personality is real "my memory is pretty lousy as i have oft repeated

anyway  that is the exact term thats used in SPD cured patients reintegration of pesonalities ok i m on chopping block lower the blade and let every one have fun one last thing moderator plz start a new thread wasn't this thread about Moiraine and her return LOL

[Mr Ares]

All 200 of Taim's ashamen will be fighting with the Shadow, against Rand.

 

We will see if the existance of the "good" ashamen outweighs this.

Numerically, they already do.

 

if a woman is not trained either she dies or blocks her self in some way why doesn't it happens in men

It does. We see various examples, such as Toveine's belief that men generally believe they can only channel at what they can see, and a guy at the BT who is limited in the distances he can channel because he doesn't believe he can channel beyond a certain range.

NY's healing was also practised during AOL Elayne is making Ter angreal and egwene is making cuendillar why it can't be knowledge drifting across age barrier

So you're saying these people cannot invent anything for themselves, their achievements are just stuff done by previous incarnations that they conveniently remembered. Ridiculous.

Semi said smthg to effect "that even Grae can't achieve re integration if other personality is real "

She said Graendal was rarely successful.

[DemandredFO]

Another example of men having a bar is the good Dr. Flynn.  He uses finger movements or I believe it doesn't work.

[a pale tanned lover]

Paraphrased.

 

You picked out my best bits as well.

[Shimmer]

Maybe her bond to Lan was only severed because her connection with saidar is lost (briefly) in the ter'angreal???

I think she will come back as a duplicate of Cadsuane though maybe not as severe...

:D

[Hybrid]

Maybe her bond to Lan was only severed because her connection with saidar is lost (briefly) in the ter'angreal???

Rand did not lose his connection with saidin when he went through the other doorway in Tear.