AoL flaw?

[Builder]

Every time I think of it, I get to one point in which I understand that the Age of Legends couldn't have been that perfect as described. We all know that most if not all the Forsaken were and still are psychopaths. This can especially be seen with Semirhage. She was a nurse (or something in that line) but was also a sadist. How can someone become a sadist in such a safe and secure society with almost no crime and all that. We know that she was like this before she swore oath to the DO.

[balefireruinssteaks]

The presence of a utopian society doesn't undermine the basic nature of humans.  It has always been the nature of humans to have a dark and a light side, and what makes us human is our ability to choose which side we are going to act upon.  Just because the Aes Sedai and other humans had built a society that had an overwhelming degree of peace and goodness and right motivation does not mean that some people continued to give into their basic nature and choose unwisely.

 

Semirhage was an enormously skilled physician, able to use the One Power to Heal almost anything.  But she was also a sadist, and was not able to overcome that.  Graendal was also a famed Restorer, and she managed to Heal people with and without the One Power, though I think that her skills rested more in the manipulation of a person's mind rather than manipulating the weaves of Healing.  Because of that, she chose to wrongly use that manipulation in the form of Compulsion.

 

It's not impossible to teach people to do things for the betterment of humanity, and to give people the motivation outside of greed, self-service, etc.  But inside we all still have that choice to either do what is right or do what is wrong...and in any society, perfect or not, there will always be those people who choose to do what is wrong.  That doesn't make it a flawed society, really. 

[Builder]

You're correct, but I didn't claim that the society in the AoL was flawed even though the title of this thread may imply that. I guess you hit the head of the nail. That choice we have to either to right or wrong is why eventually the AoL society failed.

[bluecole]

Also, the fact that tapping the DO's prison let "bad stuff" into the world.  Envy, jealously, etc.

 

B.

[Builder]

Yeah but I'm talking specifically prior to the event of the Drilling.

[deathgate]

They used what is now the oath rod to make it so criminals wouldn't do crimes. Completely turning criminals would remove a lot of problems. No crime and no jail. Doesn't mean there aren't others that haven't been discovered yet but would get rid of every one that is.

[Charlz Fel]

The Oath Rod only works on women who can channel.

 

Also, a point on Graendal--before turning to the Shadow, she was a dedicated ascetic.  We'll never really know, but one possible scenario is that Greandal started out with good intentions, set too high standards for herself (something like avoiding physical pleasures entirely; that is what "ascetic" means), and eventually soured on the whole project.

[Gentled Ben]

The Oath Rod in the White Tower only works on women who can channel (as far as we know), but in Balthamel's little chapter in the guide, it says that he came close to being bound with the Power against doing violence, so there must have been binders for men in the AOL, too.

[Kaznen]

Every Utopian society in Literature has a darkness that makes utopia possible.  Like with the binders taking away free will.

 

Keep in mind the attitudes of the people we learn about the AoL from you have modern Randlanders (even in the BWB) who hear stories about all the wonderous things in the AoL or the forsaken lamanting the past.

 

And keep in mind the AS (which the forsaken were) were the top of the food chain in AoL.  I doupt life was all that rosy for the bottom rung laborers.

 

BTW: I believe Grendal was turned to the shadow against her will.

[Builder]

And keep in mind the AS (which the forsaken were) were the top of the food chain in AoL.  I doubt life was all that rosy for the bottom rung laborers.

 

Exactly. That's why I think that Mexican guy working at Wal Mart maybe some people who work at seaports, or other places that pay very little money aren't as wealthy as AS. However that would eventually lead to an underclass of citizens and would maybe result in some sort of uprising.

[Thor]

well actually no, at least it says in the books that channeling did not get people all the honour (just like wise ones didn't rank themselves according to strength in power as the rand-day AS do).

 

take the aiel, they are revered as much as the aes sedai.

 

it came down to how much contribution you provide to society.

[Gentled Ben]

Kaznen, I think that Graendal might have been turned too, since she had such a complete about-face in her lifestyle and personality.

[Builder]

well actually no, at least it says in the books that channeling did not get people all the honour (just like wise ones didn't rank themselves according to strength in power as the rand-day AS do).

 

take the aiel, they are revered as much as the aes sedai.

 

it came down to how much contribution you provide to society.

 

Ahh well in that case a social revolution wouldn't be that likely.

 

Also, I think that Graendal wasn't turned over forcibly. I really do believe that she chose it because after years you go apeshit when you don't have any pleasure. Why did monks and nuns molest so many children in their monasteries? Because they weren't doing anything but praying. Humans simply must have something fun to do.

[Luckers]

BTW: I believe Grendal was turned to the shadow against her will.

 

That's unlikely--Graendal was one of the first who went to the Shadow--prior to the War of the Shadow. Semirhage's trick was not discovered until during the War of the Shadow--it required Myrdraal, and its stated that the Trollocs were not as effective as hoped in the early days until Myrdraal were brought in.

 

I doubt Semirhage was using that method--a method that relies on the Myrdraals ability to link and control things--prior to it being discovered that Myrdraal could link and control things.

 

Kaznen, I think that Graendal might have been turned too, since she had such a complete about-face in her lifestyle and personality.

 

Graendal was an ascetic. Ascetics have absolute control over themselves--something Graendal has proven several times within the series. Her exact ability to control herself, her words and her enviroment are what make her--in my opinion--the most dangerous of the Forsaken.

 

Compare that to the elaborate indulgences of Graendal later on--and i see your idea. RJ did say that it is like an inversion of the person's personality.

 

Only I don't agree. We've seen inside her head. We've see that she still retains that iron control.

 

My position is that her elaborate hedonism is exactly the same as her elaborate asceticism (and its stated that she was reknowned for being extreme in that too). Specifically, that both were intentionally created and controlled by her. Graendal turned to the Shadow but did not want people to take her too seriously. So she crafted her enviroment--just as she always had. Could you imagine peoples reaction? The stiff prude turning to the dark side in order to gain all the forbidden pleasures she'd so long denied herself.

 

That'd be all the excuse they'd need to dismiss her, and ignore that maybe--just maybe--she turned for power, not for pleasure.

 

Consider too that the coments about her hedonism mostly come from others. 'he'd be pretty enough for Graendal, if he were important'--yet Graendal herself makes almost no such comments, and displays little real concern for her supposed conquests, the points of her obsession--and one would think she would if it were the result of a compelled turning--and even the few times she does its always to one of the other Forsaken, never privately in her thoughts.

 

There are reasons why its next to impossible that Graendal was turned--but I see the idea behind your reason. I just think it implies alot about Graendal and less about her being turned.

[Builder]

So basically she is control-bitch, but allows herself to have all the pleasures she can think of. Isn't that quite contradictory?

[Luckers]

So basically she is control-bitch, but allows herself to have all the pleasures she can think of. Isn't that quite contradictory?

 

Yes and no. Yes, because it is a contradiction, and no because you missed the point. She is not a 'control-bitch' as you phrase it. Control-freaks are people who are subconciously driven to control their enviroments. Ascetics are people who teach themselves to control their enviroment, usually through minimalism. There is a difference.

 

In this case it is the difference between apparently 'allowing' herself to have all the pleasures she can think of, and creating that atmosphere intentionally.

 

The first implies she gave in to her baser needs--which is no doubt the impression she wished to give. But we know its not true. We've seen her thoughts, and we've seen no actual obsessions with these pleasures. Nothing like Rahvin's lust for women, or Lanfear's 'love' for Rand.

 

So yes, there is a contradiction between her ability to control herself and her apparent wanton lusts. That was the point--that these lusts are not wanton at all, but rather an intentionally crafted illusion.

 

A trained ascetic would be able to do such a thing.

[Builder]

Now I see. Ascetics look a lot cooler now, but they have to refrain from all pleasure as well don't they?

[Luckers]

Yeah they do. It involves a whole lot of 'sitting in one place for hours' and the like. The self-control it teaches is powerful, but its definately not my cup of tea.

 

That being said it wasn't just that Graendal had that self-control, it was also her deep understanding of human behaviour--the two combined to make her what she is, and allow her to construct the image she has constructed.

 

The end game is Graendal is utterly rational. What passions she has are completely subject to her rationality. Whether she acts on them or not is a completely intellectual decision on her part.

[Builder]

Sounds like a person in control, and an enemy to fear. I hope Rand does wise and not do something stupid when it comes to Graendal.

 

I think I could use some of that training. I gotta have more self-control ^^

[Luckers]

Haha. Mahavira sat still till he died.

 

You may not want that sort of self-control. Lol.

[Builder]

I said some of that training. Minuscule pieces of that training. I don't have that much of a problem, but it would be nice to have self-control.

[Gentled Ben]

That's insightful, Luckers; I certainly hadn't considered it that far. I only looked at the surface and saw what she wanted to show me.  ;)

[Builder]

Ok lets put it all together. Graendal is an ascet, but to the world she shows that she is completely without boundaries and everything. Do the DO know all her secrets?