Legend of the Seeker

[Mr Ares]

wow, were you born an asshole, or do you actually work at it?

A little of both. How about you?

 

Read Frank Herbert's Dune, and you might notice that both Jordan & Goodkind have borrowed heavily from the Bene Gesserit. Confessors who are women with power...men are rare, nuts, and overpowered. Check. Aes Sedai are women with power....men are rare, nuts, and overpowered. Check.

Men aren't rare, nor are they nuts, usually, nor are they overpowered in Wheel of Time.

 

Jordan's Aiel are desert folk who are super fond of water and shade? Meet Dune's Fremen.

Of course, because a group of people living in a hot, waterless environment with a fondness for the water and shade that are so lacking in that environment could only possibly have come from Dune.

 

Edited for spelling because I type like a chimpanzee  :P

While peeling a banana with your feet? If so, that's impressive. My remaining toes are nowhere near dextrous enough for that sort of thing.

[Gentled Ben]

ROFL Yes, but when I try to eat the banana, I begin to hit the wrong keys.

[Verbal32]

Read Frank Herbert's Dune, and you might notice that both Jordan & Goodkind have borrowed heavily from the Bene Gesserit. Confessors who are women with power...men are rare, nuts, and overpowered. Check. Aes Sedai are women with power....men are rare, nuts, and overpowered. Check.

Men aren't rare, nor are they nuts, usually, nor are they overpowered in Wheel of Time.  I disagree.  Taint on Saidin = nuts.  Reds hunt down male channellers and gentle them for many years = rare.  It has also been said that men are naturally more powerful in the power.

 

Jordan's Aiel are desert folk who are super fond of water and shade? Meet Dune's Fremen.

Of course, because a group of people living in a hot, waterless environment with a fondness for the water and shade that are so lacking in that environment could only possibly have come from Dune.  Uh, stop me if I'm wrong, but Dune was written first.  Which was my point.  ;)

[Jillain Sanche]

I am originally from the American Southwest, much of which is desert country. Down there folks suffer from periodic and prolonged droughts! Water is truly seen by many people in that area as a precious, even sacred resource and not to be abused or wasted.

This is not something the great Frank Herbert invented. Just a fact of life in ANY desert, unfortunately. Goes with that territory!

Personally, I liked Dune, though not so much the sequels. Be that as it may. We each have our own unique reactions to all of this literature, and often based upon our own experiences and development.

 

But it seems to me that you two (Verbal and Corki) are saying you find both authors' characterizations to be overly simplified?

You are entitled to your opinions, of course, and far be it from any of us to tell you or anyone what you may or may not like. So some of us disagree with you--big deal, right!

 

But I would like to point out that in the case of Jordan's works your assessment might be based on what was presented as the perspectives of the young people at the outset of their adventures.

Yes, the Two Rivers folks seem to, when they (Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene and Nynaeve) first left home, have had such opinions of the opposite genders.

However! I think that a careful read will illustrate that not every adult in "Rand-land" thinks like that about the women or the men. And I also think you might find that the opinions of the five friends from Two Rivers change as they grow up, become seasoned through so many conflicts and their own development into adulthood.

 

[Verbal32]

But it seems to me that you two (Verbal and Corki) are saying you find both authors' characterizations to be overly simplified?

You are entitled to your opinions, of course, and far be it from any of us to tell you or anyone what you may or may not like. So some of us disagree with you--big deal, right!

 

But I would like to point out that in the case of Jordan's works your assessment might be based on what was presented as the perspectives of the young people at the outset of their adventures.

 

Huh?  Again, where did I say anybody's charcterizations were overly simplified?  I beg your pardon, but are you reading the same thread as I am?  :-\

[Corki]

But it seems to me that you two (Verbal and Corki) are saying you find both authors' characterizations to be overly simplified?

You are entitled to your opinions, of course, and far be it from any of us to tell you or anyone what you may or may not like. So some of us disagree with you--big deal, right!

 

But I would like to point out that in the case of Jordan's works your assessment might be based on what was presented as the perspectives of the young people at the outset of their adventures.

 

Huh?  Again, where did I say anybody's charcterizations were overly simplified?  I beg your pardon, but are you reading the same thread as I am?  :-\

 

I'm wit Verbal on this one - where did I say anybody's characrerisations were overly simplified? Yes, I said I thought RJ was over the top, which he is. Some people like this, some don't. I used to, but I find it a struggle now.

[Mr Ares]

Read Frank Herbert's Dune, and you might notice that both Jordan & Goodkind have borrowed heavily from the Bene Gesserit. Confessors who are women with power...men are rare, nuts, and overpowered. Check. Aes Sedai are women with power....men are rare, nuts, and overpowered. Check.

Men aren't rare, nor are they nuts, usually, nor are they overpowered in Wheel of Time.

I disagree. Taint on Saidin = nuts. Reds hunt down male channellers and gentle them for many years = rare. It has also been said that men are naturally more powerful in the power.

Men can be nuts, but most of the ones we've met aren't. Taim has found a fair few male channelers in a short space of time. That implies they are not as rare as you might think. Naturally stronger does not equal overpowered, especially as that greater strength is balanced out by greater dexterity in women.

 

Jordan's Aiel are desert folk who are super fond of water and shade? Meet Dune's Fremen.

Of course, because a group of people living in a hot, waterless environment with a fondness for the water and shade that are so lacking in that environment could only possibly have come from Dune.

Uh, stop me if I'm wrong, but Dune was written first. Which was my point. ;)

Uh, stop me if I'm wrong, but deserts, lacking in both water and shade, and thus likely to produce people who place great importance on such things, existed before either Dune or WoT, which was my point. They could simply be borrowing from the same sources, real desert dwelling cultures. What do the Aiel have in common with the Fremen specifically?

[Verbal32]

Uh, stop me if I'm wrong, but deserts, lacking in both water and shade, and thus likely to produce people who place great importance on such things, existed before either Dune or WoT, which was my point. They could simply be borrowing from the same sources, real desert dwelling cultures. What do the Aiel have in common with the Fremen specifically?

 

I'm not arguing that point...it's kinda obvious.  My point is that the comment was made that Goodkind takes elements and somehow doesn't pay proper "tribute"?  My response was that both Goodkind and RJ borrowed elements from Dune, from normal deserts, from whatever....the point I was making is that I fail to see how Goodkind didn't pay tribute where RJ did.  That is all.

[Kaznen]

IMO I think there is little in common between Dune and SoT.  Just the main character of both being powerful wizards and emperors.

 

And that is fairly common in the genre.

[JenniferL]

http://www.siliconcerebrate.com/faqs/WOTFAQ/3_sources/3.11_other-sf-dune.html

[Kaznen]

The link boss?/Kath provided doesn't mention SoT.

[JenniferL]

No, but it does talk about the sources Jordan, Herbert and Tolkien used when writing their stories. Its not beyond the realm of possibility that Goodkind used them as well.

[Verbal32]

Agreed.  They all likely used them.  I just don't understand how an author can improperly pay "tribute" to another work.  They all probably got them from general genre stuff, mythology, my aunt, my dog, whatever.

 

I was basically taking issue with Goodkind somehow doing something wrong with his borrowing, where RJ is not?  If somebody doesn't like the SoT, that's fine......if somebody doesn't like WoT, that's fine.....but to say that one is ripping off and not paying tribute and one is ok doesn't make sense to me.

[Mr Ares]

My response was that both Goodkind and RJ borrowed elements from Dune.

My point was that he didn't. There's really nothing to support the claim that RJ borrowed from Dune. As for what Jillain Sache meant by saying Goodkind didn't pay proper respect, you'll have to ask her. Again.

[Verbal32]

My response was that both Goodkind and RJ borrowed elements from Dune.

My point was that he didn't. There's really nothing to support the claim that RJ borrowed from Dune.

 

There is nothing to support either way.  I'm not arguing that point.  I'm also not going to bother assuming that Jillian will respond, so I'm dropping it.

[Rodel_Ituralde]

This is like one of those places u pay to get in an argument ... excellent!

 

Fantasy is all about borrowing.  The general tapestry is always the same but the details and the characters make the difference.

 

WoT is filled with this and that borrowed from elsewhere.  Its impossible to write a story that long and have it all original thought.

 

As to the Dune thing, the offensive idea isnt that both book features desert people who value water and shade, it's the similar backstory.  The Fremen of Dune believe they were sent to Arakis as a test of faith.  They were molded there while they waited for the arrival of the Mahdi who would lead them to freedom.  The harshness of life made them powerful warriors, the equal to the Sadukar of the emporer who were raised on a similarly harsh prison planet.

 

The Aiel believed they were sent into the waste to be tested because they failed the Aes Sedai and waited for the Car'a'carn to unite them and save a portion of a portion.  Because they lived in such a harsh, competitive environment, they were turned into extremely tough warriors.

 

In both stories they aid the hero of the tale and that aid is foretold by prophecy.

 

I would be fairly sure that there r even older stories that u could find that both these tales were based on.

[Mr.Big]

I'm sure Andy Serkis will be pleased to know he has a fan in you. And even with CGI, you still need actors (voice actors, if nothing else).

 

Have you seen final fantasy advent children?

Andy will find work regardless because he is a talented actor, but you do not need a human actor to have a lifelike character.

And Voice actors? yup you need em, but it will be 1000 times easier than using real actors to convey WoT in a movie

 

The problem with a totally CGI movie is that it would never make enough money for the studio to want to make sequels.