Ageing

[Ziggdiezan]

Hey i was thinking since sisters seem to stay young or "Ageless". would a 100 year old aes sedia (Spelling sorry) be able to have kids or reproduce?

[Chel Vanin]

I'm no WoT expert but I'll take a stab at this.

 

I am pretty sure they could, because any channeler 'slows' when they hit a certain age (I remember someone talking to Nynaeve about it, and her being sad that she wouldn't get her gray hairs soon). So a 100 year old AS could very well be in prime child bearing age.

[mb]

Swearing on the Oath Rod (also called binder) causes agelessness; regardless of the oaths sworn.

 

The Oath Rod I think would not prevent pregnancy; unless that kind of oath was sworn.

The offspring I guess would not have agelessness if she did become pregnant.

 

[arkinia]

I wonder why there are not (any?) Aes Sedai mentioned with children. They might have duties to attend to, but it's been said that Greens get a pretty close to their Warders and I imagine they don't have much terms of birth control.

[Ziggdiezan]

they prob can use some sort of air weaving birth control ^^

[mb]

I wonder why there are not (any?) Aes Sedai mentioned with children.

It was told that the queens of Manetheren were Aes Sedai and that the kings were their Warders.  They must have had some children.

Though I am not sure if those Aes Sedia were bound to the Oath Rod.

 

[icspots]

Not many Aes Sedai reproduce..... someone makes a comment about it at some point about it being rare to find a man who can deal with a woman having so much more power than he does.  Many Aes Sedai stay cloistered in the WT where any man around is a servant, and I doubt many of them would stoop to bedding the staff.

 

That said the Aiel Wise Ones and the Seafolk Windfinders both bear children.  I don't think they ever make a comment about how old any of the ones whom we know have children are.  Wise Ones and Windfidners are much more integrated with their peoples than Aes Sedai are since the AS set themselves above everyone else.  The Wise Ones make several comments about Aviendha having hips "made for babes", and we know Melaine, Dorhinda, and Amys all have children (though Melaine is technically still working on hers. ;))

 

It's not like the body of a channeler who's slowed stops all it's metabolic processes (i.e. menstruation), rather they just age really really slowly.  I'm sure female channelers eventually get to the menopausal stage, however they'd have to be really old to accomplish that.  Maybe AS reach that earlier since being bound by the Oath Rod cuts their lives in half.

[Barmacral]

If I do recall, the night when Elayne is knocked up they make some sort of comment how Elayne didn't take the appropriate tea and would get pregnant.

[water_seeker]

It's not like the body of a channeler who's slowed stops all it's metabolic processes (i.e. menstruation), rather they just age really really slowly.  I'm sure female channelers eventually get to the menopausal stage, however they'd have to be really old to accomplish that.  Maybe AS reach that earlier since being bound by the Oath Rod cuts their lives in half.

 

Would this mean that female channelers (since their natural processes slow) would go through a prolonged period of menopause?  That would suck, for them and those around them.

[Luckers]

The major reason Aes Sedai don't have children is the indoctrination against it. Keep in mind they are very successful at that--they wait until girls already awed by the image of being Aes Sedai to approach them, and then seclude them from the world for (on average) over twenty years, whilst they are subjected to intense mental and physical strain and taught in what they should do to be Aes Sedai.

 

By the time they become Aes Sedai its so locked in their heads they can't fight it. Its the same reason they accept all those stupid traditions.

 

Swearing on the Oath Rod (also called binder) causes agelessness; regardless of the oaths sworn.

 

Completely true--though i'd point out that it requires more than one oath to cause the Agelessness (I know you said 'oaths', but i just wanted to make sure it was clear).

 

It's not like the body of a channeler who's slowed stops all it's metabolic processes (i.e. menstruation), rather they just age really really slowly.  I'm sure female channelers eventually get to the menopausal stage, however they'd have to be really old to accomplish that.  Maybe AS reach that earlier since being bound by the Oath Rod cuts their lives in half.

 

Or maybe they never do. It depends on if the Oath Rod ages them faster, or simply kills them sooner. If its the latter they'd be dying in their prime, and likely still able to bear children. It's never commented on.

 

 

[Chel Vanin]

If I do recall, the night when Elayne is knocked up they make some sort of comment how Elayne didn't take the appropriate tea and would get pregnant.

 

Heartleaf tea I think it was called.

[Theleos]

its pretty funny to me that Aes Sedai don't realize that its the oath rod that creates the ageless face for quite a long time. It has been said a few times that they get the ageless face after "working with the power for a long time" but you have Accepted with almost 20 years of working with the Power then they swear the oaths and a couple years later they are ageless.

[luftstark]

 

Swearing on the Oath Rod (also called binder) causes agelessness; regardless of the oaths sworn.

 

Completely true--though i'd point out that it requires more than one oath to cause the Agelessness (I know you said 'oaths', but i just wanted to make sure it was clear).

 

 

Why is that? got a quote?

[Harnan]

It was told that the queens of Manetheren were Aes Sedai and that the kings were their Warders.  They must have had some children.

Though I am not sure if those Aes Sedia were bound to the Oath Rod.

 

 

The Oath Rod had not been found back then. I am pretty sure the Aes Sedai at that time were not bound by the Rod.

 

As icspots says channelers in other societies (Sea Folk, Aiel, Sharans) have children normally, so if something does stop Aes Sedai from having children, it's the Rod. Elayne, though nominally Aes Sedai, has not sworn on the Rod, so her example does not count. We don't really have any evidence conclusively showing that bound Aes Sedai cannot have children.

 

Though I must wonder - if Aes Sedai do not reproduce (by custom), the channelling ability among the population of the Westlands must have dwindled badly over the centuries, especially coupled with the gentling of male channelers. How long before they would have died out completely? 

[arkinia]

I don't think not reproducing puts them at risk of extinction. I'm pretty sure the ability to channel is not genetic.

[thatsnotgood]

I don't think not reproducing puts them at risk of extinction. I'm pretty sure the ability to channel is not genetic.

 

Robert Jordan said it was.

It was told that the queens of Manetheren were Aes Sedai and that the kings were their Warders.  They must have had some children.

Though I am not sure if those Aes Sedia were bound to the Oath Rod.

 

 

The Oath Rod had not been found back then. I am pretty sure the Aes Sedai at that time were not bound by the Rod.

 

As icspots says channelers in other societies (Sea Folk, Aiel, Sharans) have children normally, so if something does stop Aes Sedai from having children, it's the Rod. Elayne, though nominally Aes Sedai, has not sworn on the Rod, so her example does not count. We don't really have any evidence conclusively showing that bound Aes Sedai cannot have children.

 

Though I must wonder - if Aes Sedai do not reproduce (by custom), the channelling ability among the population of the Westlands must have dwindled badly over the centuries, especially coupled with the gentling of male channelers. How long before they would have died out completely? 

 

How do you know the Rod hadn't been found yet? It was about a thousand years after the breaking, that's a pretty freaken long time.

[Harnan]

How do you know the Rod hadn't been found yet? It was about a thousand years after the breaking, that's a pretty freaken long time.

 

Manetheren was not established a thousand years after the Breaking. Neither was the White Tower. We also know that in the Age of Legends, ter'angreal such as the Oath Rod were known as binders and used only on criminals. It follows then that the Aes Sedai who institued the tradition of the Three Oaths using the Oath Rod did not know of its original use. That indicates a sizeable stretch of time between the beginning of that tradition and the death of the Aes Sedai from the AoL who would have known about binders and their proper use. That does not mean the Oath Rod could not have found during the Ten Nations period, of course. It might have been found and put to use two, three or five centuries after the Breaking. But it wasn't.

 

I say that because of what Sheriam said during Nynaeve's test to become Accepted.

 

"Once, Aes Sedai were not required to swear oaths. It was known what Aes Sedai were and what they stood for, and there was no need for more. Many of us wish it were so still. But the Wheel turns, and times change. That we swear these oaths, that we are known to be bound, allows the nations to deal with us without fearing that we will throw up our own power, the One Power, against them. Between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years we made these choices, and because of them the White Tower still stands, and we can still do what we can against the Shadow."

 

(Sheriam Sedai, The Testing, The Great Hunt)

 

The bolded part of the quote state that even if the Rod had been found during the Ten Nations period, it had not been put into use until after the Trolloc Wars.

 

 

[Epic]

There would also be the chance that there children would not be able to learn to channel and would age normally while the Aes Sedai stays relatively the same physically and has to watch her children grow old and die.  That'd be another reason to not have kids.

[Harnan]

Hey, I hadn't thought of that all! That's a very good reason for not having children. After all, it's the same reason that novices are not allowed to keep in touch with their families once they've entered the Tower, isn't it? Good call, Epic. 

[Luckers]

its pretty funny to me that Aes Sedai don't realize that its the oath rod that creates the ageless face for quite a long time. It has been said a few times that they get the ageless face after "working with the power for a long time" but you have Accepted with almost 20 years of working with the Power then they swear the oaths and a couple years later they are ageless.

 

Aes Sedai don't question the nature of being Aes Sedai--its the basis of all their flaws, and the result of their training methods.

 

 

Swearing on the Oath Rod (also called binder) causes agelessness; regardless of the oaths sworn.

 

Completely true--though i'd point out that it requires more than one oath to cause the Agelessness (I know you said 'oaths', but i just wanted to make sure it was clear).

 

 

Why is that? got a quote?

 

Well, its actually said in the books--albeit indirectly. Sammael is wondering whether Graendal has figured out that the Aes Sedai use a binder, and thinks it unlikely because few people in their age commited a crime worth binding, much less two. It was the 'much less two' comment that made people wonder--why would he specify that?

 

So they asked RJ and he has confirmed at several booksingings that it takes more than two oaths to cause the Agelessness.

 

I say that because of what Sheriam said during Nynaeve's test to become Accepted.

 

"Once, Aes Sedai were not required to swear oaths. It was known what Aes Sedai were and what they stood for, and there was no need for more. Many of us wish it were so still. But the Wheel turns, and times change. That we swear these oaths, that we are known to be bound, allows the nations to deal with us without fearing that we will throw up our own power, the One Power, against them. Between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years we made these choices, and because of them the White Tower still stands, and we can still do what we can against the Shadow."

 

There is some confusion about this though, because the Guide and the glossaries both suggest that they were put in place soon after the breaking. Now normally when the glossaries and Guide contradict something said in the main text we trust the maintext, however Sheriam also states that Aes Sedai swear not to use the power as a weapon against darkfriends AND shadowspawn, which we know from new spring to be patently untrue.

 

So yes, there is still some confusion about this.

[General Cauthon]

Sheriam could've meant the last oath, (against lying). That one probably were put in use after the "red" Amyrlin betrayed Manetheren.

 

The ones about not using the Power as a weapon, or make a weapon, probably came right after the Breaking.

[Harnan]

Oh. I haven't read the Guide, so I didn't know that. Hmm.

 

It just seems unlikely to me that Aes Sedai immediately after the Breaking would use binders to take oaths. Though the situation might have been drastic enough to enforce suchh a decision, I suppose. But why restrict using the Power as a weapon so early on? I would imagine the first hundred years the world would be filled with brigands and bandits assaulting people trying to rebuild ( as in all great post-apocalyptic scenarios). The One Power would be an incredible weapon against such destructive forces. Only when the Aes Sedai had formed a stable authority could they afford to take an oath to reduce their own attack capabilities for the sake of peace. But that's just my opinion.

[mb]

Sheriam could've meant the last oath, (against lying).

The oath against lying is actually the first oath.

The last oath is actually against using the One Power as a weapon.

 

[Durinax]

just to point something out nothing says that they didnt have to oath rod the whole time, it states the decision to require oaths was after trolloc wars

 

and on the part about oaths giving agelessness doesnt the seanchan woman that is with rand doesnt she appear ageless

[Gentled Ben]

No, Alivia has crow's feet; the Aes Sedai don't wrinkle. Myself, I picture them with facelifts.  :P