What will happen to the Black Sisters?

[Master Norry]

What will happen to Falion, Temaile, Marillin etc? Will they be killed by Slayer like those AS in tSR? Will they escape? Will they be stilled and executed?

[Luckers]

Perhaps--we must keep in mind the idea that Sylvase is Cyndane--the very last thing we hear of the prisoners is Elayne asking to use Sylvase's torturer.

[Chel Vanin]

Perhaps--we must keep in mind the idea that Sylvase is Cyndane--the very last thing we hear of the prisoners is Elayne asking to use Sylvase's torturer.

 

 

Woah. First I'd heard that, though now I think the cold eyed thing seems to line up. This is generally assumed as true? or is it still another theory? don't mean to jack this thread just had never heard that before.

[Master Norry]

I have never heard that theory either. Is there a thread about it somewhere?

[Gentled Ben]

It isn't confirmed, just a viable possibility. I have also seen speculation that the torturer in question is Demandred, which is also possible, although I think it's more likely that he's with the Borderlanders.

[a5m]

we must keep in mind the idea that Sylvase is Cyndane

 

It isn't confirmed, just a viable possibility.

 

I would not consider it viable at all. Sylvase was a prisoner for months. And to assume that the torturer must be a forsaken for him to be good also doesn't fly for me. The Hand of the Light has many good torturers. I would be very surprised if in the last three books Sylvase turned out to be Cyndane.

[Luckers]

Alrighty then, clearly it hasn't been spoken in a while.

 

The idea that Sylvase has been replaced by Cyndane began with the similarities in their descriptions. Both women are short, with silvery-blond hair and an icy demenour. At the beginning she is described as being stupid, but notice the sequence of the descriptions of her—take note of the descriptions of her prettiness, and her stupidity.

 

Descriptions

 

Firstly Elenia.

his eyes sought through the shadowed crowd on horseback behind her, and his face relaxed when he found Sylvase, his granddaughter and heir, a sturdy, placid young woman who met his gaze, unsmiling, then pulled her dark, fur-lined cowl well forward. She never smiled or frowned or showed any emotion at all that Elenia had ever detected, just kept an unvarying cowlike expression. Plainly, she had a cow’s wits, too.

 

Elenia clearly dismisses her, yet just a bit later when Arymilla offers her maid to Nasin (Sylvase’s ‘grandfather’) Elenia is unnerved by Sylvase’s reaction.

Suddenly all lickspittles and toad-eaters were adjusting their cloaks against the wind or snugging their gloves, looking anywhere except at Arymilla’s maid. Especially the women. One of them could have been chosen as easily, and they knew it. Oddly, Sylvase did not look away. It was impossible to see her face in the shadows of her hood, but the opening turned to follow the slender woman.

 

So—vapid, sturdy and not very pretty—yet Elenia is still unnerved by her. This description is further supported by Arymilla’s position

 

"If Luan and the others will not support you, what good will taking Caemlyn do?" Sylvase, Nasin's grandaughter and heri, spoke so seldom that the question came as a shock. Sturdy, and not quite pretty, she usually had a vapid gaze, but her blue eyes appeared quite sharp at the moment. Everyone stared at her. That seemed not to faze her a bit. She toyed with a winecup, but Arymilla thought it no more than her second.

 

[the scene goes on for bit, Arymilla dismissed her, and Nasin agrees, and then...]

 

"As you say, Grandfather," Sylvase musmured, inclining her head briefly. When she straightened, her gaze was as insipid as ever. The sharpness must have been a trick of the light, of course.

Vapid. Sturdy. Not bright. Yet both Arymilla and Elenia are unnerved by small displays of will. But now consider Elayne’s description of her, and how it differs.

 

Then two Guardsmen appeared with a woman a little older than Elayne, in simple blue, a woman she thought she recognised. A single enemeled brooch, a red star and silver sword on glittering black, appeared to be her only jewelry. But why was Sylvase Caeren being brought to her? A pretty woman with  alert blue eyes that held steady on Elayne's face, she was Lord Nasin's heir, not the High Seat of Caeren.

 

Pretty. Sharp blue eyes. Intelligent.

 

So clearly Sylvase has hidden her intelligence from  Arymilla and Elenia, and even though they see signs of it, they dismiss it. Because they dismiss her. The odd note is that Elayne describes Sylvase as pretty, whilst Elenia and Arymilla call her sturdy and ‘not quite pretty’. So, either Elayne is more generous than they are—or they are being dismissive, which they have a precedent for doing about Sylvase.

In the end though we have Sylvase who is short, with silvery blond hair, and blue eyes—who is described to show no emotions, and to be cold and hard. Arymilla and Elenia describe her as ‘not quite pretty’, but Elayne disagrees. Elenia and Arymilla also describe her as stupid, and vapid—which she is not. Then we have Cyndane—also short, with silver blond hair and sharp blue eyes and a cold demenour. She, however, is described by Graendal as very pretty and doll-like.

 

Circumstance

 

Consider the roll Caraen plays in supporting Arymilla. They are the only house to whole heartedly do so, and the first house to support Arymilla. It is with their support that Arymilla is able to assert her claim.  Sylvase is present in this from the beginning—supposedly a hostage, though Nasin in truth is acting to support Arymilla because he thinks she is his daughter. Consider, though, the reality of that—it drives the most powerful westland nation into civil war. A move in which Sylvase’s house is the core, acting under an utterly delusional belief. Yes—I’m suggesting compulsion.

 

Then, when Arymilla is caught by Elayne, Nasin conveniently suffers a seizure, allowing Sylvase to step forward, placing her again near the heart of power in Andor.  And it is very convenient—almost as convenient for Elayne as Nasin’s absurd beliefs about Arymilla were convenient for Arymilla.

 

The Long Shot

 

One other issue is significant here, raised in this quote

Then two Guardsmen appeared with a woman a little older than Elayne, in simple blue, a woman she thought she recognised.

 

Its not really significant, I only raise it because of the old theory that Cyndane’s body once belonged to Cabriana Mecandes. The descriptions match, as do the timelines, and the loss of the agelessness would explain why Elayne thought she recognised Sylvase, despite later saying she knews little about her.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Elgee]

It seems a bit of a stretch, to me. Probably because I don't WANT it to be true. I'm tired of the Forsaken getting recycled. For once, I'd like a character like Sylvase to just be an interesting, multi-faceted person without having to be yet another recycled Forsaken. It truly is the worst plotline of the Books, for me.

[Luckers]

You know I'd actually agree completely--except for the circumstances part of it all. The results of the extreme coincidences surrounding Sylvase fit too neatly with the Shadow's plans.

[deathgate]

Its not really significant, I only raise it because of the old theory that Cyndane’s body once belonged to Cabriana Mecandes. The descriptions match, as do the timelines, and the loss of the agelessness would explain why Elayne thought she recognised Sylvase, despite later saying she knews little about her.

 

Isn't that potentially dangerous as Sylvase could easily run into Aes Sedai who knew Cabriana Mecandes.

[Elgee]

None of the Sisters recognised Siuan and Leanne after they lost the ageless look, so the same might hold true for the Cabriana body.

 

I still don't agree with this theory, though.

[a5m]

You know I'd actually agree completely--except for the circumstances part of it all. The results of the extreme coincidences surrounding Sylvase fit too neatly with the Shadow's plans.

 

Which plan? The one that allows Elayne to take the Rose Crown? The shadow has been trying to put a fool on the Lion Throne for several books. And Sylvase steps up and neatly finishes those plans after her demented Grandfather dies.

 

I too will be very disappointed if she turns out to be Lanfear. I'd almost go for a dark friend if pushed. (hard) Just because a fool doesn't think she is worth considering and is then wrong doesn't mean to me that the shadow just happened to put a forsaken in that position.

[Arath Faringal]

Its not really significant, I only raise it because of the old theory that Cyndane’s body once belonged to Cabriana Mecandes. The descriptions match, as do the timelines, and the loss of the agelessness would explain why Elayne thought she recognised Sylvase, despite later saying she knews little about her.

 

Had Elayne ever even met Cabriana?  I don't recall where she was captured.

[Luckers]

Isn't that potentially dangerous as Sylvase could easily run into Aes Sedai who knew Cabriana Mecandes.

 

People who have been stilled look different--and its more than just that they are themselves without the agelessness--Siuan says that she looks different to how she had looked at her apparent age. Cyndane, even if she were Cabriana, would still look quite different.

 

Quote from: Luckers on May 25, 2009, 03:07:03 AM

You know I'd actually agree completely--except for the circumstances part of it all. The results of the extreme coincidences surrounding Sylvase fit too neatly with the Shadow's plans.

 

Which plan? The one that allows Elayne to take the Rose Crown? The shadow has been trying to put a fool on the Lion Throne for several books. And Sylvase steps up and neatly finishes those plans after her demented Grandfather dies.

 

I did detail what i thought to be the shadows plans in my full pust. Perhaps reading it fully would enlighten you more--but the short of it is that the shadow has not been trying to put a fool on the Throne, they have been trying to ensure civil war. Let the Lord of Chaos rule. It was Caraen that allowed that civil war--by supporting Arymilla they created a viable oponent that the Shadow knew none of the great houses would actually support, thus ensuring the conflict. And Sylvase did not finish those plans, they were already finished. Once Elayne had captured Arymilla they were done. Which is why its so amazingly coincidental that Sylvase's grandfather chose that specific moment to die, allowing for Sylvase to place herself near Elayne without suspicion.

 

But as I said, read the other post, it would  serve you better.

 

Had Elayne ever even met Cabriana?  I don't recall where she was captured.[/quote

 

It's never said that she did, though we do know Cabriana was in the Tower during the time Elayne was there.

[luftstark]

The theory has some support. I can't say i agree, but well.. we have seen Sylvana so little that there is not enought quotes to disagree either.

 

Also, i do think that Nasin's madness is a little odd. it could be a plot, a madness induced or created by the shadow's work, somehow.

 

Nice... althou this topic when all the way into another subject =PP

 

About the Black Sisters captured by Elayne...

 

I would like to see some Tower Justice for once... tired of captured darkfriends gettin fried by Slayer or other darkfriends....

 

Althou they can't be brought to the Tower right now.. so it's just sad... i would like to see a Black Sister getting convicted and exposed so the whole tower would not be able to hide on the Black Ajah issue.

[Shard]

Yeah but could Lanfear keep from going Psycho like if she found out that Elayne was carrying Rand's babies? She went balistic just from the thought of another woman touching him let alone carrying his child. Frankly I think they rather the Andor country to remain in chaos for as long as possible. I think the shadow rather sow anarchy then try to control Elayne.

[chuckievi]

Yeah but could Lanfear keep from going Psycho like if she found out that Elayne was carrying Rand's babies?

 

Well let's toss the word "more" in there, because she is clearly already psycho.  To answer your question though, no I think she would become even more unhinged than she currently is.

 

On to the BA.  Given the seeming disparity between "light" and "dark" channelers that seems to exist, one would think a majority of the BA would have to escape to fight on the Shadow's side during TG.  If not it seems like the Shadow would just have a smattering of channelers and a ton of Trollocs, which we have seen get ripped apart by a relatively few number of channelers with Rand.

[Luckers]

Well let's toss the word "more" in there, because she is clearly already psycho.  To answer your question though, no I think she would become even more unhinged than she currently is.

 

Which might make a good plot point. Remember that Elayne had the sense to keep it secret.

 

On to the BA.  Given the seeming disparity between "light" and "dark" channelers that seems to exist, one would think a majority of the BA would have to escape to fight on the Shadow's side during TG.  If not it seems like the Shadow would just have a smattering of channelers and a ton of Trollocs, which we have seen get ripped apart by a relatively few number of channelers with Rand.

 

Agreed. Though I would point out that we see 32 Aes Sedai hold against over 200 Wise Ones and 40,000 algai'd'siswai. Oh, I doubt they would have won, but it wasn't the easy slaughterhouse that Algarin's Manor was. A few channelers can protect against a much larger amount of channelers--and if they can keep that protection lasting long enough the Shadowspawns numbers will make up the difference.

 

But still i do agree, most of the current darkfriend channelers will survive till Tarmon Gai'don, or the Shadow is in a bad way, which according to RJ it is not.

[Builder]

 

But still i do agree, most of the current darkfriend channelers will survive till Tarmon Gai'don, or the Shadow is in a bad way, which according to RJ it is not.

 

And why do you think that? They are hard to catch, but easy to kill.

[Luckers]

The hint in where to find that is in that i was saying 'i agree' to someone...

[luftstark]

 

1- Maybe, just maybe, the DF could cause a greater dmg from inside the light forces. Spys and sabotagers may do more damage then direct assault. I could see BA leading AS circles and using this to attack other AS or kill those locked in the link. I could see assassination of important AS by the BA ... if we have something like 100 BA in 1000 AS, there is not much they can do in a direct assault. So the subtle way is more probable!!!

 

2-What about the inicial question of the thread? What will happen to the BA that Elayne captured in KoD??? Will they be killed by Slayer? Give important information to Elayne? Escape? Be judged by Tower Law??

[Harnan]

I don't want Sylvase to be Cyndane.

 

Elayne will certainly try to find out more about what Black Ajah has been doing. Stilling them is an option I don't think she will take. She might hand them over to the rebel Hall, though they have a lot on their plate as it is. Considering Elayne, it seems most likely that after drawing out what information she can on the Black Ajah, she will hand them over to the rebel Hall for trial.

 

The Shadow might of course intervene. Slayer might kill the sisters, though it is possible Elayne would take precautions against that (unlikely that considering she does not know exactly what it was that had murdered Amico and Joiya). Darkfriends in the Palace might do that. Personally I think that won't happen. There's too many sisters to do that as easily as was done in Tear. The Black sisters are certain to be guarded heavily and even Slayer might have trouble slipping in from the Dream World. I go for some kind of assassination attempt that fails, after which the rebel Hall sits for a formal trial. 

 

I'm wondering what the effect of the Black Ajah and the death of the all the Aes Sedai in that house will be on the Kin. They virtually worship Aes Sedai. How're they gonna react to the Black Ajah in their midst?

[Gentled Ben]

The same way they reacted to Ispan, back around the time when they quit worshipping Aes Sedai, I suppose.

[Harnan]

Right. Ispan totally skipped my mind. Sorry. 

[Gentled Ben]

No problem.  :)

 

You know, as I think about it for a minute, it occurs to me that they might be vengeful. They don't have Careane, but they have others of her ilk, and they will want to see justice done for the loss of their own. Elayne might have to guard these Black sisters from the forces of Light and Shadow both.  :-\