wool smells when wet

[Epic]

You guys might as well be discussing why we don't see them go to the bathroom more often.  ::)

 

"More often" would require that we see someone do it at least once?

 

Have you?

 

If so, please provide quotes.

 

;)

 

I actually vaguely remember Mat using an old word for it once but that is all I remember. Has any author used that as a plot device for humour? Would be sort of funny for a hero to have to run off to the bathroom right before or during a fight scene.

George R. R. Martin uses bathroom scenes regularly, very funny.  Tywin Lannister is killed on the toilet and voids his bowels(at least he was in the right place.

[Majsju]

You guys might as well be discussing why we don't see them go to the bathroom more often.  ::)

 

"More often" would require that we see someone do it at least once?

 

Have you?

 

If so, please provide quotes.

 

;)

 

Well, we see Tuon go to the necessary in KOD. Not that we actually get to see her in there, but...I am quite ok with having that part left out ;D

[Kaznen]

That bodily function was mentioned as being need several times.  Mat commented on a chamber pot in CoS and several mentions of whitecloaks and privy pits.

[water_seeker]

I seem to recall at one farm they stopped at the wife washed their clothes for them and let them use her husbands or sons clothes while they worked? Or am I remembering wrong?

 

You are correct.

[Elgee]

Maj for the win  ;D

 

Apart from that scene, and Elayne "avoiding more tea as she is already making water too often", I don't think we have any other specific mentions of people engaging in bodily functions of that nature. Quite a few references to chamber pots, but none about putting said chamber pots to use.

 

That's extremely little, in an 11 book series.

 

As to general cleanliness - we have numerous references to people washing. It might not be the traditional shower or bath we are used to, but it does indicate a higher level of cleanliness than one would expect from that level of societal development. It is quite possible to wash your whole body using only a basin of water. As my one sister's mother-in-law explained it once: First you was as far down as possible, then you wash as far up as possible, and then you wash possible.  :D

[Mr Ares]

George R. R. Martin uses bathroom scenes regularly, very funny. Tywin Lannister is killed on the toilet and voids his bowels(at least he was in the right place.

Shame on you, Epic. Spoiling it is one thing, but you left out the best part: "Lord Tywin did not, in the end, S**t gold."

 

Would be sort of funny for a hero to have to run off to the bathroom right before or during a fight scene.

You might think so, but poor toilet facilities are the worst part of battles. It's no laughing matter at the time.

[luftstark]

Maj for the win  ;D

 

Apart from that scene, and Elayne "avoiding more tea as she is already making water too often", I don't think we have any other specific mentions of people engaging in bodily functions of that nature. Quite a few references to chamber pots, but none about putting said chamber pots to use.

 

That's extremely little, in an 11 book series.

 

As to general cleanliness - we have numerous references to people washing. It might not be the traditional shower or bath we are used to, but it does indicate a higher level of cleanliness than one would expect from that level of societal development. It is quite possible to wash your whole body using only a basin of water. As my one sister's mother-in-law explained it once: First you was as far down as possible, then you wash as far up as possible, and then you wash possible.  :D

 

I do think that this is due to the fact that the characters are livin' on the high bracked of society. They are kings and queens, nobles (not a bloody noble) and generals, AS and the bloody Dragon Reborn... Therefore they can bath all they want to. They are expected to do so. Those are the weathy ppl, the privileged ones. Most baths we see are on expensive Inns, Palaces and Noble Houses ...

 

If we would turn to the general folks, the soldiers, the farmers, the ordinary crafters and merchants and pedlers, we would see a rather smelly situation. I don't think the ordinary farmer bath more then once a week. They probable just wash their face and hands every morning and night. But bath? rarely!!!

[Elgee]

Rand = peasant

Egwene = peasant

Nynaeve = peasant

Mat = peasant

Perin = peasant

Min = peasant

Avienda and the rest of the Aiel = peasant / nomads

 

Need I go on?

 

And did you actually read what I said about WASHING as a substitute for modern day bath tub / shower?

[luftstark]

Rand = peasant => Becomes a "Lord" at book 2

Egwene = peasant => Becomes Novice at book 1

Nynaeve = peasant => Becomes Accepted at book 1

Mat = peasant => Becomes a "Lord" at book 4

Perin = peasant => Becomes a "Lord" at book 4 (IIRC)

Min = peasant => Lives in the tower on book 2 (IIRC)

Avienda = peasant => Becomes Aprentice to Wise Ones (can't recall wicht book)

rest of the Aiel = peasant / nomads => We most see Wise Ones and Clan/Sept leaders in the sweat tends .. but it's possible that Aiel may be more assiduos then the wetlanders.

 

And did you actually read what I said about WASHING as a substitute for modern day bath tub / shower?

 

I read it.. just saying that wasing your face and hands, as was usual on the past, is not the same as taking a full bath. I know one could wash all the body, but they didn't do it very often. They saw no point in it!!!

 

 

Also .. the first time we see a bath reference, in Berelon (sp), it's at a good Inn, with Moiraine paying for it.

 

IIRC, the next time is at another good in, (The queen's blessing), where rand get's it for free for knowing Thom.

 

The next time it's on Shaenar, on the Palace (I'm not sure it was a palace, but it was close to).

 

Need i go on?

[Elgee]

One doesn't usually find bath tubs by the side of the road  :P

 

They are used to being a bit cleaner on average than when they've been traveling, judging by how all of them practically salivate at the thought of a bath.

 

Luftstark, we have to differentiate between what they would do under normal circumstance, as opposed to the unusual circumstances of traveling through long stretches of uninhabited areas.

[Barmacral]

The public baths in Shienar are based on the public baths in the Roman Empire, where everyday washing included covering ones self in olive oil then scraping the olive oil off with some fancy scraper scoop thing.

[cseresz]

I think given how often even anyone bathes in the series people have to have some sort of desensitization. They probably aren't so squeamish to body odor as we might be today.

 

funny: "In the first volume of Janssen's History of the German People there are many details concerning the popular use of baths in Germany during the Middle Ages. Men bathed several times each day; some spent the whole day in or about their favorite springs. From the 20th of May to the 9th of June, 1511, Lucas Rem bathed one hundred and twenty-seven times, as we may see by his diary"

 

funnier: In the early history of America, for instance, bathing does not seem to have been a very frequent occurence. In 1798, a Quaker lady called Elizabeth Drinker, aged sixty-five, bathed in a shower box that her husband set up in the backyard of their house. "I bore it better than I expected, not having been wett all over att once, for 28 years past" she wrote in her diary. The occasion 28 years earlier when she had bathed had been on a visit to a spa, which seem to have been quite popular.

 

 

http://www.gallowglass.org/jadwiga/herbs/baths.html

 

http://www.scatoday.net/node/4169

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080722081020AABxgqp

[Shard]

It's also possible we don't see them every time they bath, just like we don't see every time they go to the bathroom. Though I love that people made potty jokes anyways that was fun to read. I also think that was a great scene when Tywin got killed on the toilet. What a horrible way to go.

[luftstark]

One doesn't usually find bath tubs by the side of the road   :P

 

I know, but that's not my point. They could have asked for a basin and water on any farm, and they could have stopped at a small river or a fount or wathever... but they did not.

 

They are used to being a bit cleaner on average than when they've been traveling, judging by how all of them practically salivate at the thought of a bath.

 

Luftstark, we have to differentiate between what they would do under normal circumstance, as opposed to the unusual circumstances of traveling through long stretches of uninhabited areas.

 

I agree... that's my point. We have a bias here. When they are farmers, they are travelling, so it's an unusual circumstance. When they stop travelling, they became Lords and AS and Queens, therefore another unusual circumstance if one want to argue about lifes of normal ppl. I believe that ordinary ppl don't bath as often as the main characters we see the main characters do.

 

 

---

 

We see several pll in the city slums and on several soldiers acampments that are not ... clean. The SAS, cleaner ppl then avarage even on the road, are disgusted by the soldiers.

 

So we know that ppl could bath with little water..but they do not.

 

The same logic goes for ordinary ppl. They may not be so dirty as soldiers or beggars or slums's folk, but they do not bath everyday. That's just the nobility!!!

[Elgee]

One doesn't usually find bath tubs by the side of the road   :P

 

I know, but that's not my point. They could have asked for a basin and water on any farm, and they could have stopped at a small river or a fount or wathever... but they did not.

 

 

Where's your evidence for that?

 

 

They are used to being a bit cleaner on average than when they've been traveling, judging by how all of them practically salivate at the thought of a bath.

 

Luftstark, we have to differentiate between what they would do under normal circumstance, as opposed to the unusual circumstances of traveling through long stretches of uninhabited areas.

 

I agree... that's my point. We have a bias here. When they are farmers, they are travelling, so it's an unusual circumstance. When they stop travelling, they became Lords and AS and Queens, therefore another unusual circumstance if one want to argue about lifes of normal ppl. I believe that ordinary ppl don't bath as often as the main characters we see the main characters do.

 

What?? None of the characters mentioned above suddenly became Lords or AS or Queens the moment they landed in Baerlon, for instance.

 

 

---

We see several pll in the city slums and on several soldiers acampments that are not ... clean. The SAS, cleaner ppl then avarage even on the road, are disgusted by the soldiers.

 

So we know that ppl could bath with little water..but they do not.

 

The same logic goes for ordinary ppl. They may not be so dirty as soldiers or beggars or slums's folk, but they do not bath everyday. That's just the nobility!!!

 

You cannot take the Aes Sedai opinion for fact. Most of them never even venture into the soldiers' camps - they just assumed the men were part of the "great unwashed". Even the AS in the rebel camp did not all bath every day, as they would have to get people to carry buckets of water all the way from the river. 30,000 soldiers might have a hard time all finding wash water, heh?

 

I say again: you cannot judge general cleanliness by unusual circumstances. Those PoVs we've had point to them all rushing to get clean the minute they were able. And they are mostly "common" people, before they became The Dragon Reborn, the Amyrlin, etc.

[water_seeker]

"Let's wash up, lad, and see about some supper.  I've already carried in some water for hot baths before sleep."

 

...

 

Rand hurried to wash his face and hands; there was a pitcher and basin on the washstand by the door.  A hot bath was what he wanted, to take away the sweat and soak the chill out, but that would come when there had been time to heat the big kettle in the back room.

tEotW Chp 5 Winternight

 

It seems these peasants at least have the desire and means to bathe when they want to.  It also seems from the text that Rand likes to bathe to "take away the sweat and soak the chill out (sounds like something he would do regularly, since he's a farmer and farmers are sweaty)."

[luftstark]

One doesn't usually find bath tubs by the side of the road   :P

 

I know, but that's not my point. They could have asked for a basin and water on any farm, and they could have stopped at a small river or a fount or wathever... but they did not.

 

 

Where's your evidence for that?

 

There is not evidence against, there is no evidence in favor. So we cannot draw any accurate conclusions. But i believe they didn't.

 

They are used to being a bit cleaner on average than when they've been traveling, judging by how all of them practically salivate at the thought of a bath.

 

Luftstark, we have to differentiate between what they would do under normal circumstance, as opposed to the unusual circumstances of traveling through long stretches of uninhabited areas.

 

I agree... that's my point. We have a bias here. When they are farmers, they are travelling, so it's an unusual circumstance. When they stop travelling, they became Lords and AS and Queens, therefore another unusual circumstance if one want to argue about lifes of normal ppl. I believe that ordinary ppl don't bath as often as the main characters we see the main characters do.

 

What?? None of the characters mentioned above suddenly became Lords or AS or Queens the moment they landed in Baerlon, for instance.

 

Are you readin' the text or just looking for loopholes in it?

 

I'm sayin' that untill the end of tEotW, they are most all the time travelling. From there on, they start becoming important ppl, they rise in the social order, therefore havin' plenty of access to luxurity, such as a daily hot bath.

 

It's a irrealist view to think that farmers would bath everyday. Yeah, they don't like sweat, but they don't have hot tubs =P It's kinda hard to prepare a hot bath, so i would not think that they would bath every day, or several times a day as was stated by someone.

 

Hot bath was always considered a luxurity, until eletric power was discovered.

 

We see several pll in the city slums and on several soldiers acampments that are not ... clean. The SAS, cleaner ppl then avarage even on the road, are disgusted by the soldiers.

 

So we know that ppl could bath with little water..but they do not.

 

The same logic goes for ordinary ppl. They may not be so dirty as soldiers or beggars or slums's folk, but they do not bath everyday. That's just the nobility!!!

 

You cannot take the Aes Sedai opinion for fact. Most of them never even venture into the soldiers' camps - they just assumed the men were part of the "great unwashed". Even the AS in the rebel camp did not all bath every day, as they would have to get people to carry buckets of water all the way from the river. 30,000 soldiers might have a hard time all finding wash water, heh?

 

I say again: you cannot judge general cleanliness by unusual circumstances. Those PoVs we've had point to them all rushing to get clean the minute they were able. And they are mostly "common" people, before they became The Dragon Reborn, the Amyrlin, etc.

 

I can't agree more. We do not have any "usual" circumstances to look at. Of course they rush to get clean, even a dirty farmer would want a bath after a cople of weeks on the road. But.... daily bases? On the farm? i can't see it

 

Even worse would be in a city, where a lot of ppl don't do hard work. A sellesman may bath once a week or more. Specially at winter.

 

I'm set that the WoT world reflects our own, and at a world where most ppl have hard time surviving, a bath comes in second place!!!

"Let's wash up, lad, and see about some supper.  I've already carried in some water for hot baths before sleep."

 

...

 

Rand hurried to wash his face and hands; there was a pitcher and basin on the washstand by the door.  A hot bath was what he wanted, to take away the sweat and soak the chill out, but that would come when there had been time to heat the big kettle in the back room.

tEotW Chp 5 Winternight

 

It seems these peasants at least have the desire and means to bathe when they want to.  It also seems from the text that Rand likes to bathe to "take away the sweat and soak the chill out (sounds like something he would do regularly, since he's a farmer and farmers are sweaty)."

 

He may like it, but it does not mean he takes baths every day!!! not like we do!

[Elgee]

Thanks, water_seeker - I was still going to find that quote.

 

Luftstark, I grew up on a farm without running hot water or electricity - but we washed every morning and bathed every night.

[luftstark]

Thanks, water_seeker - I was still going to find that quote.

 

Luftstark, I grew up on a farm without running hot water or electricity - but we washed every morning and bathed every night.

 

You live in the 20th/21th. Bath is common, ppl know that if they don't bath, they may get sick.

 

We are talking about a world were ppl are not aware of it. A world were bath would seen to be luxurity, not necessary. There is no basic sanitation, nor does the governaments try to educate ppl into cleaness.

 

It may be my way of seeing the WoT world, but i can't imagine a "medieval" world were ppl are aware of microbiological life and fully understand the danger of the lack of assiduity.

 

And this discussion is already on personal belief ... so i think we sould stop ^^ there is no way you can convice me otherwise, and i believe that the same is true for ya! ^^

[water_seeker]

He bit his cheek to keep from lauging hysterically.  Many ways were different in Shienar from what he was used to, and there were some to which he would never become accustomed if he lived forever.  He had taken to bathing in the small hours of the morning, when the big, tiled pools were empty of people...

tGH Chp. 2 The Welcome

 

Based on Steven Cooper's timeline Rand and Co. are in Fal Dara for about a month by the time this scene happens.  By the time Rand figures out just how public the baths are and when he can go and still find some privacy only 30 days have passed.  This suggests that there is some amount of routine to bathing.  He may not bathe everyday, but he bathes regularly.

 

Really, the only time we can point to Rand not bathing (that I'm aware of) is after he and Min "bump uglies" for the first time and he thinks he raped her.  He gets really depressed and when Min convinces him that it was concentual (in the chapter named A Bath, Chp 33 aCoS) she tells him he needs a bath (cause he hadn't had one).  IDR anyone else complaining of someone smelling bad and needing to bathe.

 

Oh yeah, there's also Perrin always smelling soap on various females.  Of course that is usually nobility, but still...

 

(http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/tl0998.htm or http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/998_NE if the other is down...which it has been lately)

[Elgee]

 

And this discussion is already on personal belief ... so i think we sould stop ^^ there is no way you can convice me otherwise, and i believe that the same is true for ya! ^^

 

Luftstark, I'll keep on hoping for a little while longer that you can be convinced by evidence from the Books  ;)

[luftstark]

 

And this discussion is already on personal belief ... so i think we sould stop ^^ there is no way you can convice me otherwise, and i believe that the same is true for ya! ^^

 

Luftstark, I'll keep on hoping for a little while longer that you can be convinced by evidence from the Books  ;)

 

The main problem to do that is that the books only have a few characters with enought PoV to provide descriptions of baths and other higiene customs. We know that Rand shaves everyday, therefore he must at least wash his face everyday. Maybe ppl in the Two Rivers bath everyday and i'm wrong about the main characters "ascencion to 'noblity'" as a factor into their assiduousness.

 

Still we can't transport this logic to the whole WoT world. What we know about the peasantry of Arafell? What about the comum class of Tear?? The regular craftsman of Murandy? What about the mine workers in western Andor???

 

So... you may convice me that Two River Folks try very hard to stay clean. You may not convice me that the whole WoT world do the same.

 

See?

[Elgee]

Between them, our main (Two Rivers common) characters have met people from all walks of life. You'd think they would comment at least once on the smelly habits of "foreigners", if most people don't have the same standards of cleanliness? All we see of something like that are a few comments about dirty beggars.

[Cillian]

You are correct.

 

Awesome.

[water_seeker]

Still we can't transport this logic to the whole WoT world. What we know about the peasantry of Arafell? What about the comum class of Tear?? The regular craftsman of Murandy? What about the mine workers in western Andor???

 

So... you may convice me that Two River Folks try very hard to stay clean. You may not convice me that the whole WoT world do the same.

 

All we see of something like that are a few comments about dirty beggars.

 

Indeed, in tEotW, Fain is trying to get to Rand through the crowd.  The crowd "ripples" away from him and Rand hears "murmurs of disgust" at the dirty beggar.  This is the crowds reaction--the crowd that had come from ALL OVER to see the false dragon--people from all walks of life--not Rand's reaction.  So even there we see a glimpse that people from different walks of life value hygiene.