Aes Sedai Tinkers

[dmanmiller34]

OK so I have a question. It was said that when ever a tinker woman begins to manifest the spark they immediatly turn their wagons towards Tar Valon. But what is the status of the girl in the tinkers eyes? Is she dead to them like when one of them uses a weapon for violence like in the case of Aram or are they just kind of lost. Also those women I wonder what Ajah they would choose if the attained the shawl? Maybe Brown since they'd never have to leave the tower... or maybe white. WOuld they have a warder that would do violence for them? How would the Way of the Leaf influence such an Aes Sedai?

Fire away.

[Kaznen]

King Essar's AS advisor, Ailsing Noon, was a tinker before the spark manifested itself.  She is in the Green Ajah, was bonded by one of Logain's AM, and has a mouth that would make Mat blush.

[Kaznen]

But she isn't all moody, dark, and unable to smile like Aram was.  I think women need to be capable for good cheer if they wnt to join the Green and I don't think the King of Shienar would tolerate and AS advisor who is always a downer to be around.

 

Borderlanders fight hard and play hard to.

[frenchie]

Well, I think it's interesting that even in the AoL, the Dashain Aiel(sp) would have been selected if they had the requisit ability. Rand ancestor in the crystal columns (Jonai, was it?) stated he was glad he wasn't select to be Aes Sedai. That implies that even Dashain would have had to fight the Shadow, even in the idyllic AoL.

[Kaznen]

But she isn't all moody, dark, and unable to smile like Aram was.

 

What does Aram have to do with this?   ???  Just because he's another Tinker who abandoned the Way?  Nothing says that every Tinker who abandons the Way goes full on whacko.

Ryne(?), Arma's grandpa, said that those who abandon The Way never smile again.  And Rand's ancestor who did abandon The Way was never known to smile either.  Ex-Tinkers just depressing people to be around.

 

That implies that even Dashain would have had to fight the Shadow, even in the idyllic AoL.

 

Not every channeler had to fight the Shadow with violence.  As Leya told Perrin, there are ways to resist the Shadow without committing violence.

But Ailingsen Noon was on Elidia's kill squad that was sent to the BT.  If she was going to fight the shadow without doing violence she would have picked another Ajah then the "Battle Ajah."

 

And I'm sure she killed her share of Trollocs in KoD.

[Kaznen]

The People who abandon the way lose a piece of themselves they miss when it's gone.  And no denying that Aram was crazy.  But The Way of the Leaf is to do no violence at all for any reason, even self defense.

 

So a Tinker pushing away a guy how is beating him so he can run away has abandoned The Way.

 

A Tinker killing a rabit to eat it has abandoned The Way.  (you've never seen them eat meat)

 

A Tinker beating his horse for misbahaving abandoned The Way.

 

A Tinker spanking a child for misbahaving has abandoned The Way.

 

A Tinker women trying to fight back against a man who is raping her has abandoned The Way.

 

And Tinkers who abandoned The Way are never happy again.  So the AS have to do some kind of reprograming to Tinker novices and accepted so they don't kill themselves. 

[Elgee]

Kaznen, what someone believes or thinks about someone else is not necessarily the truth, as they believe/think from their own perspective.

 

The Tinkers believe/think that someone who abandons The Way must suffer terribly, emotionally. That is why they stick to The Way - not to, would make you an unhappy person.

 

Probably many, if not most, of the Tinkers who HAVE abandoned The Way, did so because they no longer believe in it. They have found that it's not the ONLY way one can be, and still be happy. Ergo, they are not unhappy or suicidal. Just like not all people who grew up in religious families stick to that way of life.

 

Not ALL people who abandon The Way are wack jobs like Aram.

[TaiDashan]

Just a random thought. It is quite possible that they immediately turn their wagons to Tar Valon due to some (although not consciously known) desire to serve the Aes Sedai as thier ancestors the Dai'shan did. *shrugs* Things get passed down and obscured so people don't know why they do it, they just know that they do.

[Chel Vanin]

And Tinkers who abandoned The Way are never happy again. 

 

sigh. You have 3 ex-Tinkers that never smile (didn't Aram flash his 'wolfish grin' a couple times?, no matter) and all of a sudden you say that all Tinkers who abandon the way are never happy again? I simply disagree, you don't have nearly enough proof for me to believe that.

 

While many may be "sad" the rest of their lives, its understandable. Their entire life they were raised on the belief that violence is evil, so in the back of their minds, many must think "am I evil?" but to say ALL are 'never happy again', I think that goes to far.

[BKVMC]

The  daishan  served the  aes sedai who  did not follow the way  and they  served them  without  reservations  from what  we read  according to their povs  from  rands  visitions to his ancestors lives. so  it sounds like a  loophole  for tinkers that are  basically  elevated to  aes sedai.

[Kaznen]

And Tinkers who abandoned The Way are never happy again. 

 

sigh. You have 3 ex-Tinkers that never smile (didn't Aram flash his 'wolfish grin' a couple times?, no matter) and all of a sudden you say that all Tinkers who abandon the way are never happy again? I simply disagree, you don't have nearly enough proof for me to believe that.

 

While many may be "sad" the rest of their lives, its understandable. Their entire life they were raised on the belief that violence is evil, so in the back of their minds, many must think "am I evil?" but to say ALL are 'never happy again', I think that goes to far.

 

It's not "all of a sudden" it is what Aram's grandpa Seeker told Perrin and Egwene.

 

And I'm not saying they all end up like Aram, he had the makings of a serial killer, but they don't live the rest of their lives as happy people.

[Kaznen]

There have been a time or two, RAW, when I have gotten a "where in the book does it say that" response from you.  I keep telling you where in the book it says that, I've shown you two examples of people leaving The Way and ending up unhappy for the rest of their lives, and now I get a "but that doesn't count" from you?

 

WTF, man

[water_seeker]

There have been a time or two, RAW, when I have gotten a "where in the book does it say that" response from you.  I keep telling you where in the book it says that, I've shown you two examples of people leaving The Way and ending up unhappy for the rest of their lives, and now I get a "but that doesn't count" from you?

 

WTF, man

 

The problem is you're committing the ultimate attribution error while citing your example.  There just is NOT enough evidence to go on to support your theory.  Sorry Kaz.

[icspots]

You also don't acknowledge the possibility that perhaps the reason those people were unhappy for the rest of their lives was because of the situation surrounding them abandoning/leaving The Way. 

 

Rand's ancestor post-breaking was in a world constantly changing where they had an impossible (or nigh-impossible) task to complete, madmen destroyed everything, everyone they knew and loved was constantly attacked/killed/kidnapped.  They abandoned The Way for a reason and were then ostracized by the only people left in the world whom they cared about..... and then they spent the rest of their lives wandering through a desolate wasteland.

 

Aram was a happy go lucky handsome kid who loved to flirt with girls.  Then he got to see his mother killed by Trollocs and in is supreme unhappiness took up the sword to avenge them.  Again you have someone in a super stressful/emotional situation where something tragic has happened who then is cast out by their people.

 

Now we've not seen a direct POV of either a Tinker Aes Sedai, or the situation in which a girl with the spark is turned over the the White Tower, however I'd think they'd make such a thing happening into a happier joyous occasion.  Even if they don't remember serving the Aes Sedai they still respect them, and for one of their people to become one could be an honor to them.  That and the girl would most likely die anyway if they didn't, so they're saving her life.  Add into all that that in the WT the girl would not only get a lot of training/history (helping to give her a bigger view of the world) but she could conceivably outlive the people she knew before even attaining the shawl.  It's possible when you're in a situation for an extended time, and this case we're talking potentially several hundred years, that your views can change.

 

I don't think we can take Raen's comment about people who leave being unhappy because despite providing two examples it's still not statistically significant.  Beyond that he's a die-hard follower of The Way so imagining living without it is probably unbearably depressing to him.  That and he's probably seen many people who left under those same stressful situations who were unhappy..... doesn't mean they all are.