Shields

[Tel Janin]

In Rand's mind, defeating the Seanchan is not a goal, it's a hurdle.  His goal is to unite the world 'gainst the Shadow before Tarmon Gaidon comes.  With that in mind, I seriously doubt he even considered taking Ebou Dar.  He wants Seanchan allies, not enemies, and he definitely does not want to be fighting a war on two fronts, one of them being the Last Battle.

 

That being said, Mr. Ares is absolutely correct; while he may have been able to take Ebou Dar, he'd likely never have been able to hold it, not without moving in a occupational force, and he needs those troops elsewhere.  Either way, it's contrary to his purpose.  His purpose was to force a meeting and an alliance.

 

Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.

[Dunedain Fal]

No, Rand's goal was to drive Seanchan to the sea.  Read PoD for his point of view.  Rand was clear on that.  He could have, with better planning.  He should have made his larger force available in case he needed more reinforcements.  He laid waste to the Seanchan army that came to him even though he nearly cost his small force.  If he had reinforcements standing by, he could have marched all the way to Ebou Dar and drive Seanchan to the sea and deny Seanchan a foothold in Ebou Dar before the Return had commenced.

 

Now Rand waited too long and has surrendered the momentum back to Seanchan.  He would have to pay a bigger price if he wanted Seanchan to bend to his terms.  In terms of strategic planning, that's a pretty big blunder.  If he had driven the Seanchan to the sea by having the reinforcements available when he needed, he would have been on far better terms than he does right now.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rand's goal was to force the Seanchan to negotiate.

 

If that required driving them to the sea, he was prepared to do that.  If they were willing to negotiate before that happened, he was willing to do that, too.

 

The North and the East must be as one.

The South and the West must be as one.

The two must be as one.

If you would live, you must die.

 

Given that set of imperatives, he was prepared to cede the West and the South to the Seanchan, but no more.  They could have those areas, he gets the rest, and they cooperate for Tarmon Gai'don.

[Dunedain Fal]

Well that's a pretty bad way to negotiate by surrendering the momentum to your enemy.  Not smart at all.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, it was hubris that made him disregard what everyone was telling him.  But, after the immense destruction he caused with Callandor, his force was broken as badly as the Seanchan, and he had no choice but to withdraw.

 

Rand still has a lot to learn about how to deal with all of the pressures that seek to drive and control him.

[mb]

Well that's a pretty bad way to negotiate by surrendering the momentum to your enemy.  Not smart at all.

The Seanchan really are not Rand's enemies; the Shadow is.

Though even if the Seanchan were his enemies, surrendering territory could be considered smart since it would make them more likely to trust him; once full trust is gained he could do almost anything to them without them suspecting.

 

No, Rand's goal was to drive Seanchan to the sea.  Read PoD for his point of view.  Rand was clear on that.

Actually his goal at the moment seems to have been to keep the Seanchan from entering Illian.  'wish' might be more accurate than 'goal' on driving them to the sea.

 

[Durinax]

seanchan are a big threat since there is a big difference between randland and seanchan prophecies.

 

Plus in Rands defence there are too many factions trying to control and push him for him to effectively defend against them all.

[Mr Ares]

It is not necessary to hold Ebou Dar. It is necessary to deny a staging area to Seanchan in the southern flank. That way, Seanchan cannot bring reinforcements by the sea.

If they cannot hold it, they deny them nothing. Taking Ebou Dar gains him nothing, as he will be forced to retreat. Either way, he doesn't deny them Ebou Dar.

[Builder]

Well we will still see Tuon and Rand making some truce so he didn't escape that, but how good the terms will be I don't know. Mat will have to do some work to make Tuon more flexible when it comes to the negotiation.

[Dunedain Fal]

It is not necessary to hold Ebou Dar. It is necessary to deny a staging area to Seanchan in the southern flank. That way, Seanchan cannot bring reinforcements by the sea.

If they cannot hold it, they deny them nothing. Taking Ebou Dar gains him nothing, as he will be forced to retreat. Either way, he doesn't deny them Ebou Dar.

 

No, you can deny Seanchan Ebou Dar without holding Ebou Dar by preventing them from building an effective beachhead.  Besides Prince Beslan and his forces would make sure that Seanchan could never effectively control Ebou Dar, not to mention the thousands of Seafolk left in Ebou Dar.  I mean it took Mat only one person to free the Seafolk and the Seafolk caused a lot of damage in one night.

[Mr Ares]

No, you can deny Seanchan Ebou Dar

Rand can't, that is the point.

[Dunedain Fal]

Yes he can.  He's taveren.

[Mr Ares]

That's your answer? He's ta'veren? Ta'veren isn't deus ex machina and it doesn't always work in his favour. He was a ta'veren when he retreated from the Seanchan. When he failed to throw them back into the sea.

[Dunedain Fal]

Don't look at me like that.  RJ made it that way with the ta'veren thing.

 

Rand does have the capability to disrupt Seanchan.  He's got Ashaman and scouts that can go commando and pull some things off.

[Thor]

guire amelasan was taveren too, he got killed.

 

arthur hawkwing was taveren, he got destroyed by ishamael.

 

heck LTT was taveren too, he couldn't even convince a stubborn woman to support his attack plan on the bore.

[Muad Cheade]

Don't look at me like that.  RJ made it that way with the ta'veren thing.

 

Rand does have the capability to disrupt Seanchan.  He's got Ashaman and scouts that can go commando and pull some things off.

 

Thor addressed your ta'avern comment. As for Asha'man, they are not the end-all in warfare. They are not nearly as effective as they were at Dumai's Well when they are facing other channelers and when saidin is not acting normal due to the Bowl of the Winds.

 

The force Rand had created to halt the Seanchan from advancing into Illian succeeded in it's task. However, it was not created to take Ebou Dar or hold it. As Bashere said, "Times are, you seize the advantage and ride on. Other times, you take your winnings and go home." It was Rand's pride that lead to his defeat and as the leader of the Light and a general, he must learn that lesson.

[Thor]

LTT himself kept warning Rand that something is not right, Rand just never listens.

[Dunedain Fal]

guire amelasan was taveren too, he got killed.

 

arthur hawkwing was taveren, he got destroyed by ishamael.

 

heck LTT was taveren too, he couldn't even convince a stubborn woman to support his attack plan on the bore.

 

And yet he pulled it off.

 

The point I am trying to make is that Rand had the potential to retake Ebou Dar if he planned it right and seize the opportunity.  After he devastated the 5,000 troops he could have gone back to Illian and pick up those reinforcements and go after Ebou Dar.

[Thor]

ltt failed totally.  the destruction from the aftermath of the dark one's backlash was far greater than anything during the war against the shadow.

[The Doctor]

LTT being Ta'averen might be why he couldn't talk her into it.  The counterstroke and Breaking of the World were the results, and those things needed to happen for the Prophecies of the Dragon to come true.

[Hybrid]

LTT being Ta'averen might be why he couldn't talk her into it.  The counterstroke and Breaking of the World were the results, and those things needed to happen for the Prophecies of the Dragon to come true.

The Prophecies were made during the Breaking.  Read TSR when Rand goes into the Rhuidean - the three Aes Sedai in one of his ancestors' lives make it pretty clear that one of them had the Foretellings which led to the Prophecies.

[Muad Cheade]

The point I am trying to make is that Rand had the potential to retake Ebou Dar if he planned it right and seize the opportunity.  After he devastated the 5,000 troops he could have gone back to Illian and pick up those reinforcements and go after Ebou Dar.

 

Those other forces were out battling bandits and Shaido. rand would first have to find them. Rand could not up and pull them out of battle or hunting his enemies. That would leave chaos behind him and also the time needed to do that would also give the Seanchan time to regroup.