The Shadow's Poor Tactics

[Achoo]

I've noticed that the Shadow's tactics need a lot of work. For example, they send assasins to Mat, Perrin and Rand, but thay send the worst assasins for each. The gholam pursuing Mat is vulnerable especially to Mat's medallion. Had it been sent to kill Rand, it would had a better chance of success, as Rand possesses no sure means to stop it. Rand is hunted by the Forsaken, whom he can fight easily. The Forsaken would have no trouble destroying Perrin, who is often alone and rarely accompanied by more than a few channelers (none of which can detect saidin or see its weaves). Perrin was attacked by Slayer, who was able to move in the dream world, and Perrin is well equipped to fight Slayer in the dream world. Mat would have no defence against an attack in his dreams, and Slayer should not have had much difficulty in defeating him. Is this tav'eren work, bad luck and poor information on the Shadow's side or sneaky writing on Jordan's part?

[Durinax]

I believe it is a clever writing twist on Jordan's part. But also the shadow (from what I gather) thought that Slayer and the Gholam where invulnerable. Also as far as I can remember is that the slayer is obsessed with finishing Perrin since Perrin shot him, and it is obvious that the Gholam is obsessed with Mat. I remember that the Gholam is after Elayne and Nynaeve initially not Mat. But you also have to realize that the most cunning shadow(ish) assassin is after rand, that being Fain. Also the forsaken focus on rand because he is the lights champion and thus their greatest threat. It is just how things turned out, and in a very clever twist of writing Jordan gave each of them the tools to destroy their counterparts but makes the reader oblivious to how the characters can do it.

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

well the shadow didn't know what mat's pendant did, they didn't know it melted weaves or anything. perrin has grady and neald with him, both asha'man. i would assume that they're able to detect saidin lol. and with rand, i'm pretty sure he'd fight a gholam to a standstill with his sword. i meant a real one not a saidin one. perrin against a forsaken? yeah i'd give the edge to the forsaken there, but i don't think that they think he's important enough to attack since he's been away from rand for some time now. mat in tar, can he even get into tar? is the shadow able to pull people into it that don't serve them? i don't think so, but i'm not sure.

[Durinax]

hmmm this got me thinking, anyone know who sent the Gholam? It must be someone high up. . . anyone have an idea who? But it is all by chance, cause think of it this way mat found the gholam because someone in saladar was a black ajah who reported to a forsaken who sent the gholam to stop Nynaeve and Elayne from finding the Bowl of the Winds. But one must think that if they had such a powerful tool such as a Gholam, why not just send it at Rand. . . Slayer was in the Two Rivers to supervise the destruction of it. And lastly the forsaken fight Rand mostly in self defence since they know he is hunting them.

 

btw Obligatory Gholams cannot be fought to a standstill by any weapon other than the pendant

[Tommar]

It is true that each hero faced a villain they were equipped to fight however:

 

Slayer was never sent after Perrin, he was sent to destroy the Two Rivers with Trollocs and later to hunt Fain. They were hoping to pull in Rand but instead Perrin went. It was also shown where Slayer was hunting Rand, but was not able to find him (he killed 2 people at an Inn). I believe it is clear that Slayer was pointed at Rand.

 

The Forsaken would naturally hunt Rand, he is the champion, the figure head etc. Very few Forsaken realize the importance of the other two and usually ignore them.

 

The Gholam was never sent after Mat. It was sent after Nyneave and Elayne, both female channelers who should have been easy meat for it. Mat was there as well, which was not known about. After that encounter, the Gholam's master was killed or the encounter otherwise free'd it from control, as it states in the books at one time it wants to kill Mat for what happened to it, not that it was sent to do so.

 

Fain himself is a wildcard, he is not technically working for the shadow. He hates the DO for what happened to him almost as much as he hates Rand.

[Durinax]

which book did it say that the gholam was sent by Sammael. I woulda thought that the forsaken would have been afraid to use that tool since it hunts channelers

 

lol Deus Ex Machina does seem to = taveren

But we dont know if the assassins will change targets since none of them where killed (except a few forsaken) I thoguht that slayer was also hunting Lan

[Durinax]

He does want to kill Lan though, he says so when he killed those two people, about how he wishes he woulda killed Lan and Nynaeve

[Kaznen]

The forsaken can pull people who don't serve the shadow into TAR.  That was where Ishamael brought them in the early books.  But they can't do that anymore.

 

Rand wards his dreams which keeps people from looking into them and keeps him anchored in the real world.

 

Perrin is guarded by wolves while he sleeps, and if he is pulled into TAR he knows an awful lot about moving around in it, as much as Egwene at least.

 

Mat's medallion he always wears forms a barrier around his dreams and anchors him in the real world, RJ said this in a Question of the Week, it was an unexpected bonus when that ter'angreal was made.

[Titan Orion]

He does want to kill Lan though, he says so when he killed those two people, about how he wishes he woulda killed Lan and Nynaeve

 

No, Slayer as Luc said he looked forward to killing his nephew, which is Rand. For him to mean Lan it would have been Isam saying his cousin.

 

I've noticed that the Shadow's tactics need a lot of work. For example, they send assasins to Mat, Perrin and Rand, but thay send the worst assasins for each. The gholam pursuing Mat is vulnerable especially to Mat's medallion. Had it been sent to kill Rand, it would had a better chance of success, as Rand possesses no sure means to stop it. Rand is hunted by the Forsaken, whom he can fight easily. The Forsaken would have no trouble destroying Perrin, who is often alone and rarely accompanied by more than a few channelers (none of which can detect saidin or see its weaves). Perrin was attacked by Slayer, who was able to move in the dream world, and Perrin is well equipped to fight Slayer in the dream world. Mat would have no defence against an attack in his dreams, and Slayer should not have had much difficulty in defeating him. Is this tav'eren work, bad luck and poor information on the Shadow's side or sneaky writing on Jordan's part?

 

I agree on some points yet I think it is easy for us to say such things, when we know the full picture. For example I always thought as well that the Forsaken should go after Mat and Perrin, but I understand why they dont; they are too focussed on Rand and their own goals; only when Moridin issues the order do they look at Mat and Perrin properly.

 

I agree though, that the Shadow has used some pretty crap tactics, for example if Ishamael knew the Dragon Reborn was one of three men, why didnt he capture all three and turn them? Or simply kill them? As I said earlier, it is easy to see the errors they make from outside the picture, and from the Shadows PoV they stick to the tactics they are best at-stealth, treachery, manipulation, etc

[Mr Ares]

The gholam pursuing Mat is vulnerable especially to Mat's medallion.

It was originally sent against Elayne and Nynaeve - Aes Sedai, and thus exactly what it was designed to fight. Ter'angreal like the medallion were unknown in the AoL, and nothing had ever hurt the Gholam before. So really, it made sense to send in the Gholam.

Rand is hunted by the Forsaken, whom he can fight easily.

Easily? Hardly.

The Forsaken would have no trouble destroying Perrin, who is often alone and rarely accompanied by more than a few channelers (none of which can detect saidin or see its weaves).

Asha'man can't sense saidin?

Perrin was attacked by Slayer, who was able to move in the dream world, and Perrin is well equipped to fight Slayer in the dream world.

Slayer was sent to the TR to kill Fain, who was in the TR to cause carnage and lure in Rand (he got Perrin instead). Perrin and Slayer encountering one another wasn't planned. They even work together, albeit unknowingly on Perrin's part.

Mat would have no defence against an attack in his dreams

Mat's dreams are protected by his medallion, a side effect.

Slayer should not have had much difficulty in defeating him.

Because every other foe Mat has faced has beaten him so easily.

Is this tav'eren work, bad luck and poor information on the Shadow's side or sneaky writing on Jordan's part?

Well, bad luck and poor information have all played their part - as mentioned, both Perrin and Slayer were in the TR to stop Fain, and they really couldn't know that there was something capable of hurting the Gholam. It is debatable how effective the Gholam would be against Rand - he knows about them, after all, and so may be better placed to defend himself against them than any other Third Ager. He can't hurt it, true, but he might be able to slow it down enough to make his escape.

 

is the shadow able to pull people into T'a'r that don't serve them?

Yes. If nothing else, we see them do it to all three boys throughout EotW. But not Mat's dreams are protected, as are Perrin's and Rand's.

 

But one must think that if they had such a powerful tool such as a Gholam, why not just send it at Rand?

Let the Lord of Chaos rule, later the Do Not Kill order, some Chosen being unaware of it, or it not fitting into their plans if they do. Plus, Rand moves about a fair bit. Actually getting to Rand presents a slight problem, and waiting for him at a given location leaves a trail of dead bodies - which Rand might recognise as Gholam MO.

Slayer was in the Two Rivers to supervise the destruction of it.

He was there to kill Fain. Fain brought the Whitecloaks to ravage the TR, Slayer brought the Trollocs to kill Fain, and keep the Whitecloaks off balance.

 

Slayer was never sent after Perrin, he was sent to destroy the Two Rivers with Trollocs and later to hunt Fain.

No, he was only sent there to hunt Fain.

They were hoping to pull in Rand but instead Perrin went.

Fain was hoping to pull in Rand, Slayer just wanted Fain dead.

 

He does want to kill Lan though, he says so when he killed those two people, about how he wishes he woulda killed Lan and Nynaeve

No, that was Luc, wanting to kill his nephew (Rand).

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

i didn't know that mat's dreams were protected by the medallion. Where does it say that?

[Luckers]

RJ stated it.

[Muad Cheade]

Actually, I'd say the Shadow is winning the war so far. Their tactics have done what they were supposed to do: Spread chaos for the Great Lord. Just look at what Sammael did with a few gateways and the Shaido. Huge amounts of devastation and somewhat prejudiced the east and south against Rand.

[luftstark]

IIRC in WH or CoT Perrin found tracks of Darkhounds ... but it was said that they weren't hunting Perrin. It was a quite large pack .... what were they hunting? It was said that it was on the hunt for a long time (they were anxious, acording to the AS who seens to know a lot about DH).

 

Is it possible that they were hunting Rand? Or Mat? Or even Fain?

[Luckers]

There are threads about this--the commen belief is Fain--though I think Tuon might be an option too.

[Kaznen]

Even with the shadow's poor tactics they are winning.  If it wasn't for the forsaken scheming and infighting against each other they would have already won.

[Builder]

Even with the shadow's poor tactics they are winning.  If it wasn't for the forsaken scheming and infighting against each other they would have already won.

 

QFT.

[Durinax]

But dont you know that good can only win if evil is selfdestuctive.

But if all the forsaken presented a united front for even a month that evil would have a total win, since more than a few of them were great generals back in the War of Shadow

[zanotam]

The shadow IS losing, if we take the shadow to refer to the DO's forces. Of course, you've got a few side games going that aren't necessarily the shadow but obviously dangerous and possibly very well done. You've got Fain, there are the slip ups Taim has made that reveal him to be something....more, and Ishmael/Moridin/Ba'alzamon appears to be playing a VERY, VERY deep game and he's playing it whether the shadow is there or not.

[Muad Cheade]

The shadow IS losing, if we take the shadow to refer to the DO's forces. Of course, you've got a few side games going that aren't necessarily the shadow but obviously dangerous and possibly very well done. You've got Fain, there are the slip ups Taim has made that reveal him to be something....more, and Ishmael/Moridin/Ba'alzamon appears to be playing a VERY, VERY deep game and he's playing it whether the shadow is there or not.

 

I disagree. The Shadow is clearly winning as evidenced by Min's viewing of the fireflies.

 

The Forsaken were giving the mission to spread chaos. Makes sense. How can the Dragon reborn unite a chaotic world. Once again look a Sammael and the Shaido. The Shaido were defeated at Dumai's Well, yet with a few gateways,  he turned them into the bane of the Southeastern continent.

 

Also, even incidental things they do have caused huge amounts of chaos. Ba'alzamon confronting Rand at Falme caused him to reveal himself early. When that happened we all know how that affect Masema and look what the new Masema (and other Dragonsworn) did all over the continent. even Fain going rogue caused more trouble for Rand (nearly killed him) than when he was a simple Darkfriend.

 

I think Moridin is a little too insane to accurately know the game he's playing. It's weird: He's so mad that he's aware he's mad, but I digress.

[Durinax]

lol thats an interesting quote that fits with what you say about moridin. I am talking about the quote at the bottom of the message

[Kaznen]

And remember in CoS Mordin could have killed Rand if he wanted to, in Shadar Logoth.

 

And in WH Semi and Mat spent a few weeks living in the same palace.  But people only called Mat "Toy" so she never knew what he looked like.  When Mordin revealed them in KoD she even said he shouldn't have held that back.  If Be'lal had waiting in the shadows until after Rand took the Sword he could have blasted him from behind and dead Rand.

 

And don't forget the cluster&%#! Lanfear caused at the end of FoH.

 

Sammy seemed to be the only forsaken who took Rand seriously.  And Mordin decided he had to die.

[Builder]

I think all the forsaken are too arrogant to do the job completely.

[Titan Orion]

Actually, I'd say the Shadow is winning the war so far. Their tactics have done what they were supposed to do: Spread chaos for the Great Lord. Just look at what Sammael did with a few gateways and the Shaido. Huge amounts of devastation and somewhat prejudiced the east and south against Rand.

 

I agree somewhat, the Shadow did indeed seem to be winning but recently their lead has been getting rapidly smaller. Rand and his entourage are becoming too organized for the Shadow to stand against, divided by their own motives as they are. I really hope we see the Forsaken work together in the next book/trilogy/whatever. And if they do it wants to be good.

[Durinax]

By the end of the last book we do see Moridin start to organize them more, although there is still scheming. Besides in the early part of the series the forsaken were right to not think much of rands powers, after all he just learned he could channel and no one to teach him. Rand just managed to fumble his way through the first few power fights