perrin and mat

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

i've noticed that perrin and mat's taveren effect, except for mat's luck, doesn't work as crazily as rands. i'm thinking of that whole section in tDR when rand's on his way to tear and it seems like everything he passes through just gets messed up. like the whitecloaks fighting each other and the guy finding a well of money and houses burning down. also in tSR the crazy stuff that happens in the first chapter with perrin's axe attacking him and mat's playing cards growing and trying to kill him. perrin and mat's taveren effect doesn't seem to do that to other people. and it isn't that they aren't strong taveren. can anyone give me some insight as to why it doesn't?

[Besolyn]

i've noticed that perrin and mat's taveren effect, except for mat's luck, doesn't work as crazily as rands. i'm thinking of that whole section in tDR when rand's on his way to tear and it seems like everything he passes through just gets messed up. like the whitecloaks fighting each other and the guy finding a well of money and houses burning down.

Totally personal opinion here, but when Rand was running to the stone, he was trying to force the pattern. I would think that would put a "tension" on his swirl, maybe causing bigger havoc.

-OR-

He is a VERY strong taveren, and he was passing through very small villages.

 

also in tSR the crazy stuff that happens in the first chapter with perrin's axe attacking him and mat's playing cards growing and trying to kill him. perrin and mat's taveren effect doesn't seem to do that to other people.

The only reason Perrin Mat and Rand all experienced the attacks is because they are taveren. The "attacks" themselves are only a "miasma of evil" rising from the DO's prison, and were just more attracted to taveren. You see another when Salidar is "attacked" and the AS think it's the Forsaken

 

and it isn't that they aren't strong taveren. can anyone give me some insight as to why it doesn't?

Rand is superduper much stronger taveren than either Mat or Perrin.

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

right, i forgot that it was actually the bubbles of evil. the part i was remembering was the fact that everyone THOUGHT it was rand. my bad.

[Besolyn]

de nada  ;)

[mb]

Rand's taverenness is known to effect a whole city.

Perrin's and Mat's, I guess effect just their presence.

 

The effects of the miasma, those would have been much bigger than Rand could achieve at the time.

 

[jaybig]

I was actually talking to my friend about this the other day.  I'm not exactly sure about why being taveren is different for each character, but in my opionion it tends to work based off of their personality.

 

Perrin likes to think things through and take things slow.  We mainly see his taveren work when he is trying to get people to do things they didn't want to before.  Verin even pointed it out to him.

 

Mat seems to have events and groups of people work out for him as a result of his taveren/luck.  Not sure if his luck is directly linked to being taveren or not.  But with Mat, there is always a group ready to help when he needs it the most.

 

Rand seems to be more of a chaotic taveren.  I think it is because the taveren pull is so strong with him that events are greatly altered with him being there.  He seems to affect things in a chaotic way.  People aren't sure what they will say around him.  Just being within a mile of him might make a person want to marry someone they have hated...or a baby will fall from a window and be fine...or a tile from a roof will fall and kill someone.

 

So...long story short...it seems to work in a way that is best for the character and thier personality.

[mb]

I take that the Pattern decides the degree of taverenness; and need being the deciding factor, not personality.

 

Their taverenness seems to have changed their personality to some degree.  The events a person goes through is one influence on the person's personality.  Since a taveren has less choices, its events are mostly decided by the Pattern.

 

[a5m]

Perrin's and Mat's, I guess effect just their presence.

 

For Mat, "a Stave and a Razor" sums up his tavereness nicely. That and "As if the world were fog". Finding the workings for a Two Rivers long bow, finding a Razor for sale and buying it and giving it to Tuon were all a bit of taveren work for me. Then meeting up with Talmanes with enough crossbow men with the "new and improved" crossbow crank and having the maps needed for Mat to plan I would also put to taveren work.

 

For Perrin, the entire Two Rivers Campaign, In "A Manufactory" when they had just the map they needed. I'd also go with Tallanvor running away and allowing Perrin to meet up with Tylee. I'd even go with the first meeting with Morgase and her party in the first place. All taveren work.

 

 

[jaybig]

I agree need is the deciding factor for taverness to kick in, but it works differently with all of boys.  Can't remember exactly, but is being taveren a temporary thing? 

 

Mat and Perrin have similar personalities since the begining and their taveren effects have not changed much.

 

So I like what you are saying, but if Rand were trying to get people to flock to edmonds field for safety and ultimately to fight against the trolloc raid, he might not have had to really talk to anyone personally to do it. His pull alone would almost make people to do it.  Mat probably would have met an army on the way and they would have decided to help him. Perrin had to talk to people to get it done.

 

So I agree, but talking about how each has different effects with their taveren pull, it seems based off of thier personality.

 

Of course there is the argument that the pattern has forced them to have their personalities, but I think it still fits.

[zanotam]

Basically, being ta'veren isn't blatantly obvious, the stories are both exaggerations, yet truths. Rand is not only a ta'veren, he is tied to the wheel, he is literally the counterpart of the DO in the flesh (his ancient nemesis = counterpart) and whatever he does forces the pattern and at the same time he is forced by the pattern. We just have the tendency to not think about things in perspective, and we forget that just because no one mentions something, doesn't mean it isn't happening. The entire pattern is in chaos whether Rand, Perrin, or Mat is there, we just happen to here about it with Rand more often. Plus, in Perrin's case from what I can tell he is basically the third stand, he has to survive, but at the same time he's not as caught up as Mat or Rand and so he can run around and shift a little here or there and from what I've noticed, it appears his shiftings will radiate out long into the future. Mat on the other hand has shifted things, he killed Couladin, he is married to the Seanchan Empress, he discovered Olver and that old guy I forgot the name of, he is very closely tied to Rand's success and I'm pretty sure a few verses I've found that seem to refer to Rand also work for Mat, and LTT was pretty luc...anyways, they just aren't as random and it's kind of like, the pattern is a waterbed okay, and normal people are like marbles, Rand is a sumo, and Mat and Perrin are proffesional wrestlers. If Rand was gone all the marbles would collect around Mat and Perrin, but he disproportionately shifts everything.

[Durinax]

I think you hear of Rand effecting the pattern more when all three are together, but everyone just says it is Rand, unless it occurs with something that mat or perrin are doing at the moment. I also think that taveren is based off of need, with rand needing something all the time it causes more crazy results, whether he knows he needs it or not. Mat and Perrin dont have such spectacular results because they need some taveren twist only during times of extreme need and they influence others to do things to help.

[Mr Ares]

i've noticed that perrin and mat's taveren effect, except for mat's luck

Mat's luck is not ta'veren.

 

Mat seems to have events and groups of people work out for him as a result of his taveren/luck.  Not sure if his luck is directly linked to being taveren or not.

Mat's luck is not ta'veren.

 

Now write it out 500 times.

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

if it isn't luck where does his luck come from? the ruby dagger?

[Mr Ares]

Yes, and being Healed from it.

[Muad Cheade]

Really? Huh. Interesting. Do you know why exactly?

[a5m]

Yes, and being Healed from it.

 

It manifested itself then. Do you have a quote or reference that actually states that Mat's luck is not ta'veren?

[Muad Cheade]

Well, in Chapter 42 of The Shadow Rising, Luc states, "The Shadow consume me if that man does not have more luck than the White Tower." The man he is referring to is Padan Fain. The only current characters who have been commented to be extremely lucky are Mat and Fain. The only thing that connects these two is that they both have had extensive contact with the ruby-hilt dagger.

 

So logically, that must be the reason for Mat's luck.

[Muad Cheade]

Well, in Chapter 42 of The Shadow Rising, Luc states, "The Shadow consume me if that man does not have more luck than the White Tower."

 

The man he is referring to is Padan Fain. The only current characters who have been commented to be extremely lucky are Mat and Fain. The only thing that connects these two is that they both have had extensive contact with the ruby-hilt dagger.

 

So logically, that must be the reason for Mat's (and Fain's) luck.

 

[Mr Ares]

Yes, and being Healed from it.

It manifested itself then. Do you have a quote or reference that actually states that Mat's luck is not ta'veren?

Mat himself makes the link. Do we have any reason to believe it is not the dagger?

[Muad Cheade]

Yes, and being Healed from it.

It manifested itself then. Do you have a quote or reference that actually states that Mat's luck is not ta'veren?

Mat himself makes the link. Do we have any reason to believe it is not the dagger?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Mat himself "makes the link."

[water_seeker]

Do you have a quote or reference that actually states that Mat's luck is not ta'veren?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Mat himself "makes the link."

 

He knew that he was lucky.  He could remember always being lucky.  But somehow, his memories from Emond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving...But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky.  The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth...

tDR chp 30 The First Toss

 

I actually just passed that part on my current read-through.

 

I almost hesitate to add this next part.  I'm not saying the two are the same...but the effect of both are related.

 

"Item.  A carved cluster of six spotted dice, joined at the corners, less than two inches across.  Use unknown, save that channeling through it seems to suspend chance in some way, or twist it."

tDR chp 25 Questions

 

That ter'angreal is listed among those that the BA take from the tower.  So make of it what you will...

[Muad Cheade]

So I was right in my assumption that the Shadar Logoth dagger is the reason for Mat and Fain's luck.

 

I don't think the six-spotted dice ter'angreal had anything to do with Mat's luck. For it to be activated, it requires channeling through it, and there's nothing to suggest that the effect of its activation is permanent then again there's nothing to suggest that it isn't.

[water_seeker]

I don't think the six-spotted dice ter'angreal had anything to do with Mat's luck.

 

No, it doesn't.  I only brought it up because Mat's luck and what the ter'angreal does seem similar.

[ROB_88]

I don't think the six-spotted dice ter'angreal had anything to do with Mat's luck.

 

No, it doesn't.  I only brought it up because Mat's luck and what the ter'angreal does seem similar.

 

except Mat is not a ter'angreal

[Silmarien]

If u notice this great luck comes out after the health of Aes Sedai.

Maybe the combo of the SL dagger and the healing "have taken out" what Mat has always had. I explain better: Mat has always been lucky but never so much as after the healing.

If u see during the healing he starts to speak the old tongue and later he has strange memories of himself.

I know he becomes a great commander ecc.

Maybe the dagger or the Aes Sedai healing or a combo of them have only "take out" this old hero Mat has inside increasing the luck. Or maybe this old hero was already lucky i don't know, i still have to finish the saga.

 

Hope u understand what i wrote because i'm not sure i understood  :D :D