Last 3 books, Titles

[Vambram]

Ah yes, yet another post from Eighty89 attacking Robert Jordan. How nice it is to see that kind of attack again upon RJ. Thank you.  ::) ::) ::)

[water_seeker]

I keep seeing,

 

But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.)

 

quoted as proof that RJ would not have split the book.  In context it makes more sense if you read it as, "Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have [written aMoL in one book], or would have [written aMoL in one book], given the chance [to finish the book before his untimely death].

 

If you take the "it" to refer to the splitting then you're saying that RJ could not have split it had he chosen to.  Yes I know he said that he did not see any logical place to split it, but at that time he had only written bits of it.  What he has on tape and what he had written were not finished works, but works in progress.  It is very likely that had he continued to write the story he would have found a place to split the book considering that his successor was able to do so.

[Vambram]

I agree, water_seeker. That is how I understand and interpret that quote from Brandons' blog, also.

[Lady Saravhem]

What the heck do ya'll mean last three books. Boy you can tell I've been gone for awhile. And quit arguing about what he RJ said about the number books. Look what I found for you guys. Right from the horses mouth form in interview he did with Locus on line, and he makes reference to this interview in one of his old blog entries.  It's along one, but he gets his point across.This interview was in March of 2006. Here it goes people:

 

 

           

After Knife of Dreams, there's going to be one more main-sequence Wheel of Time novel, working title A Memory of Light. It may be a 2,000-page hardcover that you'll need a luggage cart and a back brace to get out of the store. (I think I could get Tor to issue them with a shoulder strap embossed with the Tor logo, since I've already forced them to expand the edges of paperback technology to nearly a thousand pages!) Well, it probably won't be that long, but if I'm going to make it a coherent novel it's all got to be in one volume. The major storylines will all be tied up, along with some of the secondary, and even some of the tertiary, but others will be left hanging. I'm doing that deliberately, because I believe it will give the feel of a world that's still out there alive and kicking, with things still going on. I've always hated reaching the end of a trilogy and finding all of the characters', all the country's, all the world's, problems are solved. It's this neat resolution of everything, and that never happens in real life.”

 

Sorry for the length but it think you needed the whole thing. I knew I read this bfore, and I had to do a quick search to find it. I remember reading his joke about readers would need a cart and a back brace to carry it around with them.

 

So as you can see, yes he did say he wanted to compltete it in only one more book. You people know that's what he had to be thinking about doing, because he knew chances were he wasn't going to live much longer, and you know he probably wanted to finish it himself. This was a world he had created and worked  on for twenty years of his life, this was is opus. I think thats why he mostly wanted to finish it off in one book, he probably figured thats all he had time left to do. And now some one else is going to step in to finish it.

 

I've read a couple on Sanderson's books and they were great, don't get me wrong I think he's a very good writer. But he won't be RJ, won't be able to duplicate his exact style and turn of phrase, or have had life experiences that made RJ's writing what it was. RJ wrote good battle scenes and knew how warriors should be portrayed because he was a warrior. I'll read the books because after investing all the time I have into the series, I really want to know how it ends but I don't expect it to be done up as good as RJ could have done it. Sanderson doesn't have the twenty year attachment to the story that RJ did, his mind didn't give birth to the people and places found with in the pages.

 

So please stop all the stupidity and quit arguing about it. I found you proof that he said only one more book to end it, but that was him being hopeful that he could kinda rush it before it was too late. And if you must you can look back throu his old blog entries as I just did and you'll see that he addresses some people questions that arose from his comment in the Lucus online interview. I just wish he could have had the satifation of finishing the series himself.

 

I, myself don't know exactly how I feel about the prospect of it being streatched out into three more books. In one way, I look at it and think yeah the publishers are just wanting to keeping riding the gravy they've found themselves on, but I also think, With all the damn trouble I have had with all my other Tor hardback starting to come unbound before I can can even read through it once, do I really want one twice the normal size? The only real problem I have with it is that I goes against what RJ said he wanted to do.   Any way I've gone on long enough. Just chill out. Peace and Love my fellow Wotmanicas. ;)

[Eighty89]

Lady Saravhem, you make a good point. The love and good will part, I mean. I've been surfing this site for years and until a week ago had never posted, but as you can tell, it finally hit a very raw nerve. All I can do is put across my view, and that is all it is: my view. I don't think i'm the only one with this opinion though: note the decline in ratings on Amazon as the series stretched out and the associated comments.

 

In a nutshell, I believe the series was strung out to some extent because it was a gravy train (just look at Steven Erikson for an example of someone who can plot out a fixed number of books and stick to it). I will obviously have to agree to disagree with some other fans. But, that is the beauty of a forum i guess: people have lots of different views and I have enjoyed reading all the weird and wonderful interpretations and predictions about WOT. OK, enough said about my particular gripe.

 

Let me now wax lyrical about RJ's and WOT's many good points because I would also like to stress that i have taken a lot of good out of the series.

 

- I love so many of the concepts and story elements: Forsaken, One and True Power, balefire, ter'angreal, the monsters (eg. gholam), and peoples, etc.

- I love the action scenes.

- I love the great history of the world.

- RJ's style is so compelling at times you simply have to know what happens next.

- The overall story arc is addictive.

 

I could go on and on, but everyone on this site knows it already. You are all fans, too. You know what I mean and could probably list hundreds of good points. So, despite my gripe on this one particular issue, i still love WOT and the good outways the bad.

 

[Lady Saravhem]

He may never have intended for the story to encompase so many books. Some times things like that kind of take on a life of their own. I write some and I know how I can get when I start creating another world. You draw maps, create different peoples and they all have their own custumes and religions and belief sets and quirks, you decide all kinds of things trying to make them as real as you can. Anyway I think that maybe he got carried away with the creative process in part, but it is also possible that he was getting pressuerd by Tor to keep the books coming. Don't get me wrong I'm sure he probably wasn't hating the money he was making, but most writers would still write even if they were unsigned and likely to stay that way. The ideas and the notions get inside your head and you got to let them out, even if it's likely you'll probably be the only one who ever reads them.  And writing out your people and places becomes exciting. Some writers know how everything is going to go all the way through as soon as they start composing but others a never sure what will happen next. Who knows maybe some part of RJ didn't want to see Rand land come to an ead. You've seen the problem he has with killing off his characters and letting them stay dead. Plus look at all the main characters he has in those books. I've never seen a book series that have so many characters that are critical to the main theme of the story, and so many plots and sub plots it's crazy. I think maybe a lot of it is he let himself get swept up in it. Maybe he gave so much detail because he wanted the reader to see what he could she. I bet Sanderson fells a wee bit intimidated having to fill in for RJ, I know I sure as Hell would. I but here I am rambling and digressing.

[Mr Ares]

Even now you obviously do not see how they only back up my point of view.

No, they don't. They back up the point of view that he was unwilling to put a number of books to it, but you provide no reason for us to accept your absurd viewpoint as to why he was unwilling.

 

The answer was: I will keep dragging it out while people keep buying them. It was only when the weight of discontent grew to such a level that he could not ignore it, that he finally said I better finish this. But even then, they found a way to drag it out to 3 novels.

The answer was nothing of the sort. The answer was it will take as many books as it takes, and I don't know how many that will be.

 

As I said, stringing it out until discontent grew too big to ignore.

Yes, the enormous discontent of the vast masses, the majority, in fact, of his readers who didn't much care how many more books there were, they just bought them and read them when they were released. Discontent had not grown to such and extent that he needed to finish the series immediately. Reader satisfaction was sufficiently high that he was capable of writing more books in the series if he wanted. Therefore, your conclusion does not fit the evidence.

 

As to your point about having to cut too much out and edit the story too much to fit it back to 6 books. You obviously didn't read what I actually said. Yes, now it would be impossible, but I would love to see somebody's efforts of squeezing all the best stuff into 6-7 books. But my point was that early on in the series it was very achievable. 6 books is still a giant series!

I did read your point, and I understood it, you're simply an idiot. It was not possible as of book one. You would need to rewrite the entire series, every single damn book of it. Of course it's impossible now, there being eleven books in print does make a six bok series rather out of the question. It was not possible to fit everything he had planned inside six books without completely changing his writing style and completely restructuring the books. For example, you could have the Seanchan take Tear instead of Falme (but not the Stone), which means Rand kills two birds with one stone by recovering the Horn and taking Callandor/the Stone in one book. The fight in the sky and using Callandor to kill Ishy would become the same book. Of course, that requires further changes, as the Seanchan should be capable of taking the Stone. And changes to the geography as it makes no sense for them to go straight to Tear without taking Falme, Tarabon, Amadicia, Altara and Illian. Or just cut out the Seanchan. There was foreshadowing of Rand becoming chief of the Aiel prior to book four, that would have to be followed up or ommitted - if followed up, it was stretching things as it was to have him gain eleven clans in two books - the Aiel Instant Army. One would be completely incredible. That leaves plausibility out the window, or the Aiel out of the picture. He has to Cleanse saidin, and plenty of other things before the final book. As the series stands, each of the first seven justifies its being a separate book, as does Knife of Dreams. Crossroads of Twilight struggles, and would perhaps be better served as the first half of KoD (or, as CoT is the better title, make KoD the back half of that). Eight books. You still need one book between, and one of conclusion, minimum. This series can't reasonably be done in less than ten. And just because it goes over that bare minimum doesn't mean it was padded out to make money, just that the author or someone decided that it might take more books than that.

 

As to your examples of other long series, the discworld novels are standalone!

People have this thing called sarcasm...

Tolkein did it the right way by publishing numerous books after the main series

Which main series would that be? Each of his books was a standalone.

 

You are right with POD being a bestseller.

And the three books that came after, during the period that, according to you, the series was alientating its readership. It wasn't! Quite the contrary, it was gaining in popularity. One might say the quality declined, but reader satisfaction had not dropped to the level that they urgently needed to finish this series or risk people not reading the finale. He was going out on top.

 

I keep seeing,

 

But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.)

quoted as proof that RJ would not have split the book. In context it makes more sense if you read it as, "Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have [written aMoL in one book], or would have [written aMoL in one book], given the chance [to finish the book before his untimely death].

On the contrary, in context that makes less sense. "But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have [split it], or would have [split it], given the chance [to split it].)" makes sense; claiming that he intended it to be one book but wouldn't make it one book given the chance is ludicrous, and contradicts itself. Not to mention contradicting all of RJ's other statements on the issue. "But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have [written one book], or would have [written one book], given the chance [to make it one book].)" DOES NOT MAKE SENSE! How many times do I have to tell people this? He said repeatedly that he wanted only one more book, he said why, so of course he would produce one more book if he was given the chance to complete it with one more. You would have us believe that despite his intention to produce one more book, if Tom said that Tor was willing to let him produce a single volume, complete AMoL, he would decline. IF HE WAS GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO PRODUCE THE BOOK HE WANTED, HE WOULD REFUSE! That makes no sense. Stop peddling this idiocy, that is not what that quote means unless Brandon Sanderson is an idiot who can't string a sentence together.

 

If you take the "it" to refer to the splitting then you're saying that RJ could not have split it had he chosen to.

No, you're saying that he couldn't choose to split it. He wanted one book, if his own words do not make that clear then the fact that BS just told us he did should make it obvious. He wanted one because he thought any split would harm the quality of the book. He wouldn't harm the quality of his book if he didn't have to. Given the chance to split it, he would refuse. That quote cannot reasonably be taken to mean anything else. I have shown this over and over.

 

I agree, water_seeker. That is how I understand and interpret that quote from Brandons' blog, also.

You are still wrong.

 

Right from the horses mouth form in interview he did with Locus on line, and he makes reference to this interview in one of his old blog entries.

We have given previous quotes, and people still refuse to listen to reason. According to Majsju, when RJ said there would be one more because splitting it would harm the quality, what he actually meant was that he wanted one more, but there would actually be two. Because apparently, RJ never said what he meant.

It's along one

Paging Elgee to the thread.

 

After Knife of Dreams, there's going to be one more main-sequence Wheel of Time novel, working title A Memory of Light. It may be a 2,000-page hardcover that you'll need a luggage cart and a back brace to get out of the store. (I think I could get Tor to issue them with a shoulder strap embossed with the Tor logo, since I've already forced them to expand the edges of paperback technology to nearly a thousand pages!) Well, it probably won't be that long, but if I'm going to make it a coherent novel it's all got to be in one volume. The major storylines will all be tied up, along with some of the secondary, and even some of the tertiary, but others will be left hanging. I'm doing that deliberately, because I believe it will give the feel of a world that's still out there alive and kicking, with things still going on. I've always hated reaching the end of a trilogy and finding all of the characters', all the country's, all the world's, problems are solved. It's this neat resolution of everything, and that never happens in real life.”

See, what he actually meant was that he would write it as one book, but it would be split. It would still be one book, just one book in two books, and one volume, just one volume that comes as two volumes.[/Majsju] This really can't get much clearer. One more book, no splitting. RJ says one more, BS says RJ said one more, Harriet and Tom both say RJ said one more, that there was only supposed to be one more is not up for discussion. It is fact. No split volumes. No AMoL volume one and two, no two books pretending to be one, one more book. One front cover, one back cover, an awful lot of pages in between.

 

So as you can see, yes he did say he wanted to compltete it in only one more book. You people know that's what he had to be thinking about doing, because he knew chances were he wasn't going to live much longer, and you know he probably wanted to finish it himself. I think thats why he mostly wanted to finish it off in one book, he probably figured thats all he had time left to do. that was him being hopeful that he could kinda rush it before it was too late.

No No No No No No No. Why do people keep saying that? It is sheer idiocy, and makes no sense. For one thing, it is saying that even while RJ still had a very good chance of survival, he was so concerned he decided to cut his series short, while still making plans for later books, and with a degree of prescience as he was saying one more book even before his diagnosis. For another, it is incredibly stupid to try and claim that he was operating under the belief that all he had time for was a 2,000 page (hardback) book. In other words, he only had enough left in him to write one absolutely enormous volume, rather than three smaller ones of the same total length. Which makes no sense at all. Finally, HE ACTUALLY SAID WHY HE WANTED ONE MORE BOOK!!! Why do people insist on trying to reinterpret everything RJ said rather than just taking it at face value - he said what he meant. "If I'm going to make it a coherent novel it's all got to be in one volume". See? Not "I only have time for one more". He needed it all in one because there was no way to split it without harming the quality, which he refused to do.

 

I also think, With all the damn trouble I have had with all my other Tor hardback starting to come unbound before I can can even read through it once, do I really want one twice the normal size?

I also think you should buy from Orbit, who have worked out how to bind a book properly, rather than Tor's shoddy crap. This is not an issue of length, it is an issue of Tor doing a poor job of binding books. Books the length of WoT should be able to hold together through multiple reads. If they don't do so, you've been sold shoddy workmaship and a substandard product, not something beyond the limits of technology that you just have to grin and bear.

 

(just look at Steven Erikson for an example of someone who can plot out a fixed number of books and stick to it).

And you complain about RJ being padded.

 

He may never have intended for the story to encompase so many books.

Indications are that he never intended it to encompass any particular number of books, just as many as it needed, although he often made estimates of how many that would be.

Who knows maybe some part of RJ didn't want to see Rand land come to an ead.

That would be the part that planned further books in the same setting.

You've seen the problem he has with killing off his characters and letting them stay dead.

No problem at all.

[Ludmian]

You've made it clear many times that you don't agree with Brandon when he talks about RJ's promise. Do you agree with Brandon when he says that Tor promised us a book in November 2009. And if you do, will you please provide a quote where Tor promises us a book this Fall?

Brandonds first mention of a promise, there you have the difference between writing and publishing. The prmoise is to write AMOL as one book, the last book of WOT. It is not a promise about how it is supposed to be published.

 

The "difference" you are pointing out has nothing to do with what RJ and Brandon actually said. Both RJ and Brandon obviously meant one big, big novel in a big, big book.

 

Had RJ managed to finish it himself, he could have published a chapter every week for a couple of years in some obscure magasine, it would still be one book.

 

Yes, it would, of course. But if he did decide to publish them over two years in three books under different titles it would be three books.

 

Did Martins 'A Storm Of Swords' suddenly become two books instead of one when it was split for the paperback edition?

 

Was George Martin told to make each of those volumes as self-contained as possible? Was the first volume published before the second one was finished. Was the title A Storm of Swords abandoned in favour of subtitles? Were they marketed as Book 3 and book 4 in ASOIAF series or as book 3 volume one, book 3 volume two? Is a two-volume edition the only option for readers or was the book published in one volume both before the two-volume edition and after that?

 

By the way, are A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons separate novels within a much longer series or are they part 1 and part 2 of some other novel? If they are, what is the title of that novel?

 

As for the second, ask Brandon, he is the one talking about some promise TOR supposedly made. Why do you insist on pestering me about something someone else said?

 

I insist on pestering you about it because you constantly pretend to be an expert on promises.  ;D Though I don't really expect you to give a straightforward answer. If you say that publishers treat tentative release dates made two years in advance as promises that should be kept at all cost you'll look ridiculous, to put it mildly, and you understand that perfectly well. If you disagree with Brandon you'll as good as acknowledge that their only reason for splitting a half-finished AMoL instead of at least waiting until Brandon finishes it is rubbish and there's really no excuse for their actions. I really don't think you'll do either of these things.

 

I keep seeing,

 

But you are also splitting a book that Robert Jordan intended to be one book. (Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have done it, or would have done it, given the chance.)

 

quoted as proof that RJ would not have split the book.  In context it makes more sense if you read it as, "Tom and Harriet both have said they don't think he could have [written aMoL in one book], or would have [written aMoL in one book], given the chance [to finish the book before his untimely death].

 

If you take the "it" to refer to the splitting then you're saying that RJ could not have split it had he chosen to.  Yes I know he said that he did not see any logical place to split it, but at that time he had only written bits of it.  What he has on tape and what he had written were not finished works, but works in progress.  It is very likely that had he continued to write the story he would have found a place to split the book considering that his successor was able to do so.

 

It's amazing how some people can mangle the English language to make words mean what they want them to mean. There might be a very small chance that Brandon failed to express his thoughts clearly this particular time, but what he actually said can only mean one thing, "Tom and Harriet don't think RJ would have split AMoL if he were given the chance to publish it as one book".

 

Thank you Ludmian for finding the quotes I could not at short notice. Even now you obviously do not see how they only back up my point of view. RJ (pressured by Tor would be my guess) used such vague comments to leave the ending to his series open ended so he could string it out as long as he and the people at Tor wanted. The fact that he kept repeating this after every book (as you have so kindly found the many quotes for me) only shows this. The following quote of yours sums it up:

 

The quotes I posted show that RJ never said things that you insisted he said. He actually said something opposite to what you insisted he said. I also showed that you used a dirty trick putting RJ's words in an entirely different context. You even made an awkward attempt to hide your trick when you did not provide a link to your quote. But you forgot that other people here are as aware of Google as you are. Now you are wriggling like a snake trying to put the quotes to your advantage. All right, I got it. Whatever quotes I post you'll try to use them to support your delusions. And if I post something opposite you'll also try to use it to support your delusions. Mr Ares has posted for you a few facts about the series but no doubt you'll choose to ignore them and go on with your BS about "a fixed number of books that was later stretched" and "an outline and climaxes for each book". IMHO, a mod could ban you just for copypasting the line "I know that jordan died before the series was finished just to piss everyone off" and feel good for stopping the bad air that spreads from your posts. I'm not a mod, I'm just one of 8,000 members here, just like you, so I can't stop you from posting BS, but I'm really not obliged to confront all the BS that floats in the smelly waters of the Internet. Nothing I say can convince you to even consider the possibility that you are wrong, so any discussion with you would be futile. All right, you can persist in your delusions. You can continue to think that you know more about the series than its author. You can keep on hallucinating about the evil and cowardly RJ who deliberately stretched the series to milk his "consumers" and then decided to quickly finish it, fearing "consumers'" wrath. You can continue to hide your head in that substance that looks and smells nothing like sand. I can't do anything about it. Someone else might continue the discussion with you just to see how you wriggle and twist quotes to fit your delusions, but I'm really not in the mood for this kind of fun.

 

Ah yes, yet another post from Eighty89 attacking Robert Jordan. How nice it is to see that kind of attack again upon RJ. Thank you.  ::) ::) ::)

 

Yes, Eighty89 must be a very brave man to attack RJ. That reminds me of a line from a fable that every Russian-speaking kid knows, "Wow! The little dog must be very strong if it dares to bark at the elephant".

 

So as you can see, yes he did say he wanted to compltete it in only one more book. You people know that's what he had to be thinking about doing, because he knew chances were he wasn't going to live much longer, and you know he probably wanted to finish it himself. This was a world he had created and worked  on for twenty years of his life, this was is opus. I think thats why he mostly wanted to finish it off in one book, he probably figured thats all he had time left to do. And now some one else is going to step in to finish it.

 

::)

 

People, where do you all get this crazy idea that RJ thought he could write one 2000-page novel faster than a few books 2000 page in total.

 

Why do people insist on trying to reinterpret everything RJ said rather than just taking it at face value - he said what he meant.

 

I would like to know that too.

[Elgee]

 

It's along one

 

Paging Elgee to the thread.

 

 

I saw.

I thought about giving a short grammar lesson

I had chocolate instead.

;D

 

Who emailed Brandon about the infamous quote? Has he replied yet?

[Ludmian]

Another small present for Elgee.

 

There seems to be a strong contingent on this website who think the sun shines out of Harriet's and Tor's and Jordan's and Sanderson's buts and anything they have done is justifiable.

 

Actually, I prefer the sun that shines from their ifs.  ;D

 

Who emailed Brandon about the infamous quote? Has he replied yet?

 

Roxinos did. Though I doubt he will post the answer even if Brandon does reply.

[Majsju]

The "difference" you are pointing out has nothing to do with what RJ and Brandon actually said. Both RJ and Brandon obviously meant one big, big novel in a big, big book.

Right... ::)

 

Yes, it would, of course. But if he did decide to publish them over two years in three books under different titles it would be three books.

No.

 

Was George Martin told to make each of those volumes as self-contained as possible? Was the first volume published before the second one was finished. Was the title A Storm of Swords abandoned in favour of subtitles? Were they marketed as Book 3 and book 4 in ASOIAF series or as book 3 volume one, book 3 volume two? Is a two-volume edition the only option for readers or was the book published in one volume both before the two-volume edition and after that?

 

Irrelevant.

 

By the way, are A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons separate novels within a much longer series or are they part 1 and part 2 of some other novel? If they are, what is the title of that novel?

 

Irrelevant. ADWD has been completely rewritten after the split. Martin is writing a completely new book. AMOL is not rewritten, there is no new material to toss in, no radical changes that can be fixed in the next book.

 

I insist on pestering you about it because you constantly pretend to be an expert on promises.  ;D Though I don't really expect you to give a straightforward answer. If you say that publishers treat tentative release dates made two years in advance as promises that should be kept at all cost you'll look ridiculous, to put it mildly, and you understand that perfectly well. If you disagree with Brandon you'll as good as acknowledge that their only reason for splitting a half-finished AMoL instead of at least waiting until Brandon finishes it is rubbish and there's really no excuse for their actions. I really don't think you'll do either of these things.

 

Right, because the only reason TOR wants to split the book is because of a promise they did not actually make... ::)

[CUBAREY]

People, where do you all get this crazy idea that RJ thought he could write one 2000-page novel faster than a few books 2000 page in total.

 

Because one book of 2000 pages takes less time to write (as a practical matter) then three books totalling 2000 pages. How? Easy, when you write one book you write it, it gets edited, printed and then published. When you write three books, you write one, edit it, print it, publish it, then go on a publicity tour. After all that you write the second book, edit it, print it, publish it, go on a publicity tour. Etc., for the third. Writing three books means that it will be  longer before the entire thing is written and published. If you have no health concerns you probably write the three novels (if you figure out logical break points) if you had health issues you try to write one book (as once it is written it can be edited, printed and published without you).

[Vambram]

There is one major problem with bringing up these quotes from RJ that are two or three years old regarding his promise to complete AMOL in one large, massive book. And that problem, is that besides RJ's closest family and friends, none of us know what he said to them concerning the writing and finishing of AMOL when it became very apparent that he was not going to be able to beat the disease that caused his untimely death.

Therefore, I choose to trust Harriet and her decision regarding this controversy.

[Eighty89]

Mr Ares: Yes, the quotes of yours do back up my belief. You choose to interpret them one way, I interpret them another. Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree. My view being he and Tor did indeed stretch out the series and comments about “as many as it takes” or 3 more always sliding being an example of this. As I said, my interpretation. Now I can concede that projects can blow out, much like the example of a 9 page essay blowing out to 27 pages. My point is, based upon (in my view) the pace of the story slowing and the quality declining to some extent, the increased focus on minor characters and events, the refusal to commit to a firm number of books, the repetition of 3 books left after each new publication, etc, I believe he did to some extent stretch out what he would have written if the series wasn’t as popular (my gut instinct is Tor certainly leant on him to do this as well). Arguing about other authors and the motivations / reasons for their burgeoning series is really irrelevant to this thread, though. (Whether or not they stretch their series out are separate debates. This particular debate is about WOT).

 

Yes, people kept buying the books! I get that. I did, too. Like I said the longer the series was out the more exposure it got and new readers, and thus every new book had a larger reader base and thus could more easily be best sellers. And hey, every book had lots of good material in it, too! Shock horror. Remember, I don’t just have bad blood for this series.

 

My point is that there was too much superfluous stuff padding the good stuff. Again, remember my opinion. Some of you obviously love it all. I love part of it and despair of some of it. As previously mentioned, my belief is that the series would have been better if it had been fitted into 6-7 books with the best, most relevant stuff to the main story. I believe these would all have been cracking reads from cover to cover. I used the example of Tolkien publishing additional books covering lesser characters or events. I like that philosophy. Gives the hardcores extra material but leaves a main sequence that is tight and focused. My objection to including it all in the main sequence is that for many it forces people who are hooked on the main ideas to wade through extra stuff to get the payoff and pay for more books than is necessary. And like I said, I believe that in this particular series (don’t bother talking about Martin or any other author because there are countless other examples of this too, but this particular argument is about this particular series) RJ / Tor did indeed stretch out the story and broke into too many tangents because it was a gravy train. Again, my opinion.

 

But hey, all the stuff I have been talking about in the posts on this thread, isn’t just my opinion (just like there are many others who share your opinions). Look at the countless book reviews and comments (not just on fan sites like Dragonmount where the participants tend to be a bit more rabid in their one-sided views of the author and series), and you will see that many other readers also expressed frustration and similar ideas of a series being stretched out.

 

I also understand sarcasm. But unfortunately your example wasn’t sarcasm, it was simply counter-productive to the point you were trying to get across.

 

Back to the original point and quote though:

 

“After Knife of Dreams, there's going to be one more main-sequence Wheel of Time novel, working title A Memory of Light. It may be a 2,000-page hardcover that you'll need a luggage cart and a back brace to get out of the store.”

 

May I borrow a quote from your esteemed self, Mr Ares:

 

“Why do people insist on trying to reinterpret everything RJ said rather than just taking it at face value - he said what he meant.”

 

Why not indeed? I think RJ’s quote was pretty straightforward. I also feel he truly did want to finish it in one published book (partly as I say because I believe he was starting to take on board the discontent of many fans). Thus my disgruntlement that all of a sudden we have 3 books. Again, another example of stretching (RJ obviously played no role in this particular one, but I reckon Tor sure did). As for Tom and Harriet’s reasoning, sure, it can be deemed to explain the situation, but I see it as just an excuse, a defence, a flimsy justification for doing what has been going on for some time now. Like I said, none of them are ever going to come out and admit it: they are just going to keep offering justifications. How people interpret them is a matter of individual opinion. Mine and many others just differs from yours and also many others.

 

On a side note, I also differ with your opinion about having no problems with him not being able to kill off characters. I look forward to maybe debating this one with you as well as I do like a good debate. Your quote and response:

 

“You've seen the problem he has with killing off his characters and letting them stay dead.”

“No problem at all.”

 

Authors (fantasy authors in particular) run the risk of having some of the suspense taken from their work if the reader begins to suspect that characters will always be safe. George R R Martin is a good example of where no character is safe (forget for the moment any other arguments on the pros and cons of Martin – just focus for a minute on this one particular issue). David Eddings (read him when I was much younger) had a similar problem to Jordan. If, as a reader you are in too much of a comfort zone with your security about characters surviving, it is hard to build suspense when they are written into dangerous situations. So I differ to you on having no problem with killing off characters (I do admit that some of ideas for bringing characters back to life are neat though, but overall the series has suffered from a growing belief that characters are too safe.

 

Ludmian: talking about banning me for using the line about Jordan dying is just juvenile. It smacks of a little kid whinging because someone has a different opinion to him. That particular line was one sentence in a much larger quote and it was the material around it that was the focus of my example. The overall feelings in those two posts and the fact that many others share them was the purpose for using them. That line unfortunately was in them. For the record, I don’t agree with that sentence.

 

And also for the record, I am not attacking Jordan. I am simply providing a critical opinion of some elements of his work and the publishers. But hey, I must be crazy to believe in personal opinion and free speech.

 

I’ve enjoyed the debate so far. It’s funny how people can look at the same quotes or media or whatever, and interpret it in such different ways!

[Vambram]

I’ve enjoyed the debate so far. It’s funny how people can look at the same quotes or media or whatever, and interpret it in such different ways!

 

It is also equally funny, or sad, to assume that these quotes from RJ that were made two or three years ago have an equal bearing as compared to what RJ told his closest family and friends concerning AMOL and his desire to have it be published as one massive final novel. When it became apparent to RJ that he was not going to be able to defeat the disease that caused his untimely death, how do any of us know that RJ insisted to Harriet and to the rest of those closest to him that AMOL be finished only as just one final massive book?

The answer is, of course we do not know. None of us know, and the only ones who would know for sure are Harriet and the rest of that very close and tight circle of friends and family. Therefore, I choose to trust Harriet and her decision regarding this controversy. 

[Lady Saravhem]

Yeah the series streatched out a little longer than any expected or wanted it to. Whatever the motives, be they greed, an unwillingness to see it come to an end or the project just getting out of control, we still consumed the books and for the most part enjoyed them, even when we had to slog through the dry boring filler that began to creep into them.Stop complaining about it, done is done, and there are a Hell of a lot of worse things we could have spent our money on. I'd rather have a 30 dollar book than say a thiry dollar crack rock, but hey thats just me. I don't know what all the griping is about, if your that pissed over it quit reading the damn books and get the Hell on with your life, and calling people stupid and idiotic because they don't interpret things the same as you, thats just so damn childish. And what the Hell does any of that matter any way, all you guys pissing and moaning over how many books he wrote and how many will be written won't make the the world go back in time and RJ finish Wot in 5 or 6 books. I don't get it.

 

And by the way people, I do not need grammer lessons. I am sorry I committed the sin of accidentally turning a long into along, but things like this do occasionally happen. I am so very sorry if my little slip offend the grammatically sensitive. But please people, do try to remember I was posting a comment on a message board not writing a thesis. Yeah, some times I might slip up and make mistakes in grammer, or perhaps I may use colloquial words and phrases, and I'll be the first to admit my spelling is not so great, but none of this makes me some kind of moron. But if my little slip ups make you feel superior to me and better about yourself, I am so happy your ridicule of me got you through your day. My enlish/lit degree and I will survive. I am sorry if I choose not to write every thing as if were a technical manual. Imagine how boring life would be if every one did that. I have come realize a lot of these people here need to get over themselves, and that a lot of them will argue over the most nonsensical crap just to have something to argue over. So thank you for your concern, but keep your small grammer lesson and just stick to the chocolate. OH, Did you see that I just a group of fragments instead of a complete sentence :o, maybe I will not burn in Hell for it ::).

 

[Serenla]

I like the title The Gathering Storm: A Memory of Light Part 1.  I would like something other for parts 2 and 3.  For these I like The Shadow at Noon: A Memory of Light Part 2 and Winds of Time: A Memory of Light Part 3.  Although I might change my mind when I actually see what's in the books...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yeah the series streatched out a little longer than any expected or wanted it to. Whatever the motives, be they greed, an unwillingness to see it come to an end or the project just getting out of control, we still consumed the books and for the most part enjoyed them, even when we had to slog through the dry boring filler that began to creep into them.Stop complaining about it, done is done, and there are a Hell of a lot of worse things we could have spent our money on.

 

That pretty well sums it up.

 

Am I happy that finishing this off is going to take possibly 3 more books encompassing another 2 to 3 years?  NO.

 

But, realistically, Jordan left a LOT of straws blowing in the wind.  There's an enormous amount for Sanderson to tie up just resolving the major plotlines.  It wouldn't surprise me if his final word count approaches a million words and it winds up being 3 pretty fat volumes.  Without undue padding.

 

seasnake wanted to know what I consider good stories that require active readers.  Too simple really.  There's one author whose work encompasses comedy, tragedy, nobility, great sacrifice, courage, cowardice, treachery, love, hate, exultation, despair, you name the human condition and he wrote about it.  Wrote pretty well, too.  You may have heard of him.  Guy name of Shakespeare.  His entire collected body of work would fit into any of Jordan's fatter books with some pages left over.

 

I'll leave it to you to decide if the complete Wheel of Time, once it IS complete,  with all its millions of words, rivals even one of Shakespeare's much, much shorter works.

[Ludmian]

The "difference" you are pointing out has nothing to do with what RJ and Brandon actually said. Both RJ and Brandon obviously meant one big, big novel in a big, big book.

Right... ::)

 

Good that you finally acknowledge it.

 

Yes, it would, of course. But if he did decide to publish them over two years in three books under different titles it would be three books.

No.

 

Yes.

 

Was George Martin told to make each of those volumes as self-contained as possible? Was the first volume published before the second one was finished. Was the title A Storm of Swords abandoned in favour of subtitles? Were they marketed as Book 3 and book 4 in ASOIAF series or as book 3 volume one, book 3 volume two? Is a two-volume edition the only option for readers or was the book published in one volume both before the two-volume edition and after that?

 

Irrelevant.

 

Relevant. Actually, the very fact that the remaining three books will be published under different titles as book 12, 13, 14, not as A Memory of Light, Vol. 1, A Memory of Light, Vol. 2 would be enough for any reasonable person to acknowledge that AMoL is dead now. Other things that I have mentioned in the quote or that I might have missed only make the fact even more obvious.

 

 

By the way, are A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons separate novels within a much longer series or are they part 1 and part 2 of some other novel? If they are, what is the title of that novel?

 

Irrelevant. ADWD has been completely rewritten after the split. Martin is writing a completely new book. AMOL is not rewritten, there is no new material to toss in, no radical changes that can be fixed in the next book.

 

*gasp* Then we will never read “A Feast for Crows. Part 2” that, if we agree with your logic,  was supposed to come after  AFFC. :(

 

 

I insist on pestering you about it because you constantly pretend to be an expert on promises.  ;D Though I don't really expect you to give a straightforward answer. If you say that publishers treat tentative release dates made two years in advance as promises that should be kept at all cost you'll look ridiculous, to put it mildly, and you understand that perfectly well. If you disagree with Brandon you'll as good as acknowledge that their only reason for splitting a half-finished AMoL instead of at least waiting until Brandon finishes it is rubbish and there's really no excuse for their actions. I really don't think you'll do either of these things.

 

Right, because the only reason TOR wants to split the book is because of a promise they did not actually make... ::)

 

Well, you are finally beginning to grasp the whole situation. Although I’d like to make a few corrections:

 

Their reason for splitting AMoL in the first place was the fact that a 1500-book titled A Memory of Light is not within the limits of binding technology, although other books of about the same length or longer are.

 

Their reason for splitting AMoL into three volumes instead of two as well as for abandoning the title A Memory of Light was that bookshops don’t like long books titled A Memory of Light, although they really don’t mind long books titled Toll the Hounds, Collected Works or Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.

 

Their reason for splitting AMoL now instead of waiting until Brandon at least finishes the first draft was, well, you got it right, the promise they have never made.

 

The question is: Do they think the readers are idiots?

 

People, where do you all get this crazy idea that RJ thought he could write one 2000-page novel faster than a few books 2000 page in total.

 

Because one book of 2000 pages takes less time to write (as a practical matter) then three books totalling 2000 pages. How? Easy, when you write one book you write it, it gets edited, printed and then published. When you write three books, you write one, edit it, print it, publish it, then go on a publicity tour. After all that you write the second book, edit it, print it, publish it, go on a publicity tour. Etc., for the third. Writing three books means that it will be  longer before the entire thing is written and published. If you have no health concerns you probably write the three novels (if you figure out logical break points) if you had health issues you try to write one book (as once it is written it can be edited, printed and published without you).

 

Still you’d have 2000 pages to write, edit, copyedit etc. , no matter in how many books you break them . The editing is not that much of a concern if your editor is your own wife who, if I understood their interviews correctly, edits chunks of your book as you write them, and you can include the corrections she makes into your 90th rewriting of the chapter that doesn’t take much time in comparison to the previous 89. Other things directly associated with publishing a particular book take little, if any, of the author’s time. Read Brandon’s blog., it provides a good insight into the life of an author. Do you think RJ would sit and wait for half a year until the previous book is published before starting a new one, especially when he had serious health concerns? As for book signing tours, well, I can and do disagree with some of their business decisions (and you can call me whatever you want for that), but I really don’t think that the people at Tor are cruel-minded sadists who can send a dying author who can hardly walk for the most part on a month-long publicity tour. If RJ somehow could avoid a tour for New Spring when he was in good health it wouldn’t have been an issue now. But even if I’m wrong and people at Tor are cruel-minded sadists the two tours would have taken a couple of months. Considering that a book of that size would have most likely taken him at least four years to write even if he were in good health he wouldn’t have gained much time because of that.

 

But again, it’s irrelevant.  The KoD signing tour where RJ made his statements about “only one book even if you need a cart to carry it around” took place in October-November 2005, and he made his reasons for that statement clear. As for RJ’s disease, he was diagnosed with amyloidosis in December 2005.

 

There is one major problem with bringing up these quotes from RJ that are two or three years old regarding his promise to complete AMOL in one large, massive book. And that problem, is that besides RJ's closest family and friends, none of us know what he said to them concerning the writing and finishing of AMOL when it became very apparent that he was not going to be able to beat the disease that caused his untimely death.

Therefore, I choose to trust Harriet and her decision regarding this controversy.

 

None of us know, true. But Tom and Harriet both think that he wouldn’t have split the book. This might at least give you some idea of what he did not say.

 

Mr Ares: Yes, the quotes of yours do back up my belief.

 

Nobody  here can possibly say anything that wouldn’t back up your belief. Did RJ put a limit on the number of books and then changed his mind? He was definitely stretching the series to milk his “consumers”.  Did RJ put a limit on the number of books and then tried to stick to his promise? He was afraid of the “consumers’” wrath. Did RJ avoid giving a definite number of books it would take him to finish the series? He did that so that he could stretch the series forever. You got some stupid idea into your head, and now there is nothing you can’t possibly interpret as a support for your idea. For some reason you think that you know more about the series than the author and that it would be better if the series sounded like “Rand and Co run away from the Two Rivers. After that Rand becomes the Dragon Reborn, Perrin marries Faile and chases the people who kidnapped her, and Mat marries the Daughter of the Nine Moons. In the end there’s a big bang-boom-wzhhhhhhh, the DO is defeated and everybody lives happily ever after”. Then all the fans of the series would have been happy. Both of them. But if the series is not what you think it should be, then it’s surely stretched to milk the “consumers”, and nothing anybody can possibly say can make you change your mind. It’s like with various conspiracy theories. If something happened it’s because of a global conspiracy. And if exactly the opposite thing had happened it would have also been interpreted as a sign of a global conspiracy. Now you see why any reasonable discussion with you would be futile even if it hadn’t been for the bad air that your lies, insults and BS that you bring from various corners of the Internet spread.

 

Ludmian: talking about banning me for using the line about Jordan dying is just juvenile. It smacks of a little kid whinging because someone has a different opinion to him. That particular line was one sentence in a much larger quote and it was the material around it that was the focus of my example. The overall feelings in those two posts and the fact that many others share them was the purpose for using them. That line unfortunately was in them. For the record, I don’t agree with that sentence.

 

Ah, you don’t agree with it? How sweet of you. Sorry, but it’s not a matter of agreement or disagreement. Whether the changes in style in later books were for the better or for the worse can be a matter of agreement or disagreement. Whether splitting AMoL was justified can be a matter of agreement or disagreement. But whether “Jordan died to piss off his fans “ cannot be a matter of agreement or disagreement. You either understand why this horrible BS should never be posted (except, maybe, in a hypothetical thread titled Why do Some People Suck So Much?) or not. Either thing can tell a lot about you. As for the rest of the quote, you’d better not remind anyone about it. It contains an obvious lie (RJ knew he was in bad health when he decided to write New Spring) and it doesn’t make you look any better for posting it. Your posts do spread bad air. To ban you would not be childish. “Childish” is, probably, the most complimentary thing that can be said about your posts.

 

(don’t bother talking about Martin or any other author because there are countless other examples of this too, but this particular argument is about this particular series)

 

Why not talk about him? You say that if the series grew from 6 books to 14 then it surely was deliberately stretched (WoT was never planned as a 6-book series, but it’s another topic for discussion). Then it would be a legitimate question to ask if the series is deliberately stretched when it grows from 3 books to at least 7 (maybe more). As your posts indicate that you read ASOIAF, I see no reason why you can’t reply to this question. Instead you continue wriggling like a snake. “No, I didn’t mean any series, I meant this particular series”. Your posts do spread bad air. That’s because of the substance that “looks and smells almost, although not entirely, unlike sand” that you insist on hiding your head in.

[Elgee]

Yeah the series streatched out a little longer than any expected or wanted it to. Whatever the motives, be they greed, an unwillingness to see it come to an end or the project just getting out of control, we still consumed the books and for the most part enjoyed them, even when we had to slog through the dry boring filler that began to creep into them.Stop complaining about it, done is done, and there are a Hell of a lot of worse things we could have spent our money on. I'd rather have a 30 dollar book than say a thiry dollar crack rock, but hey thats just me. I don't know what all the griping is about, if your that pissed over it quit reading the damn books and get the Hell on with your life, and calling people stupid and idiotic because they don't interpret things the same as you, thats just so damn childish. And what the Hell does any of that matter any way, all you guys pissing and moaning over how many books he wrote and how many will be written won't make the the world go back in time and RJ finish Wot in 5 or 6 books. I don't get it.

 

And by the way people, I do not need grammer lessons. I am sorry I committed the sin of accidentally turning a long into along, but things like this do occasionally happen. I am so very sorry if my little slip offend the grammatically sensitive. But please people, do try to remember I was posting a comment on a message board not writing a thesis. Yeah, some times I might slip up and make mistakes in grammer, or perhaps I may use colloquial words and phrases, and I'll be the first to admit my spelling is not so great, but none of this makes me some kind of moron. But if my little slip ups make you feel superior to me and better about yourself, I am so happy your ridicule of me got you through your day. My enlish/lit degree and I will survive. I am sorry if I choose not to write every thing as if were a technical manual. Imagine how boring life would be if every one did that. I have come realize a lot of these people here need to get over themselves, and that a lot of them will argue over the most nonsensical crap just to have something to argue over. So thank you for your concern, but keep your small grammer lesson and just stick to the chocolate. OH, Did you see that I just a group of fragments instead of a complete sentence :o, maybe I will not burn in Hell for it ::).

 

 

Lady, take a chill pill. You're dangerously close to flaming, and have quite probably stepped over the pg13 line as well, with your swearing.

 

You are accusing people of arguing about "nonsensical crap", but then you write a paragraph long rant about a bit of joshing?

 

Now, I happen to agree with your point of view, and I disagree with Eighty89's. But if I was an uninformed or undecided person (on this matter), I would lean towards Eighty's explanation, purely because of the way he presented it, in a clear and calm manner.

[Eighty89]

Thank you Elgee, I appreciate the fact that you can at least see that I have tried to put reason behind my views, even if your views differ to them. I would call that a healthy debate.

 

Ludmian, if I want to talk about the merits of an argument about George R R Martin stretching his series, I will do it on a Martin fan site. Whether Martin stretched his series is really moot when we talk in terms of this thread. It is WOT I am talking about and whether or not other authors do or do not stretch their series is irrelevant to this thread. It is another issue that we could debate on another thread or website.

 

As for lies, insults and BS, is that your response to anybody with a diffrent opinion to you? Were you one of those kids who had a sissy fit when your mum told you to share your toys, or maybe you are from Gen Y where nobody ever said no to you, and you blaze up into an inferno of self righteousness when someone has a different view on something you are so set on. I apologise if I have a less than perfect view of an author you see through rose-coloured glasses. Welcome to the real world, Ludmian. Oh that's right, having a diffrent opinion to one element of RJ's and Tor's work to you is bringing bad blood to this site. Woops, I slipped into sarcasm.

 

It's a damn forum remember! People will have different views to you. And believe it or not, I'm not flying solo on my particular view (not to say you are either, but that's all good, variety is what makes the world go around).

 

I can't fully agree with you on it not being a planned 6 book series. I have by no means read everything to do with WOT, but there is a lot of info on the web (see some of my examples in earlier posts) that do say it was originally planned and sold as a 6 book series. This info (and you can only make judgements from what info you have) is part of my reasoning for my feelings on this issue. Only part mind you. I have covered enough other pages with my other reasoning.

 

But hey, shall we move on? As I am new to posting (this issue finally stirred me to register and post) do you have any other opinions / views on controversial / interesting WOT issues we could debate?

 

ps: can anyone tell me how to paraphrase a quote in the boxes like everyone does on their posts. I'm a bit technologically challenged on that one, and it would make life simpler on some posts???

[Alghar Khan]

All things considered, I totally understand why she didn't "chill".    ;)

[kilika]

thanks to everyone that hijacked my thread

this was meant to be a thread discussing the names of the last 3 books

 

i'd just like to say to you all grow the f*** up

 

 

[Ludmian]

seasnake wanted to know what I consider good stories that require active readers.  Too simple really.  There's one author whose work encompasses comedy, tragedy, nobility, great sacrifice, courage, cowardice, treachery, love, hate, exultation, despair, you name the human condition and he wrote about it.  Wrote pretty well, too.  You may have heard of him. 

 

Is the last sentence a hidden insult or do you really have that low opinion of DMers?

 

Guy name of Shakespeare. 

 

You were asked what you consider "good fiction with active readers". You can find no better example than a poet and playwright everybody here is aware of. Think it makes you look cool?  :-\ Why do you think that novels by people who haven't been dead for a few centuries should necessary be inferior to sonnets and plays of someone who has.

 

 

His entire collected body of work would fit into any of Jordan's fatter books with some pages left over.

 

Proves that you have never held a copy of William Shakespeare's collected works in your hands. By the way, how many poets ("classic" or not) do you know who left a few million words' worth of legacy after themselves?

 

I'll leave it to you to decide if the complete Wheel of Time, once it IS complete,  with all its millions of words, rivals even one of Shakespeare's much, much shorter works.

 

*shrugs* You may discuss whether apples can rival oranges if you wish, of course. I guess it might make a good thread for Fiddlesticks.

 

Thank you Elgee, I appreciate the fact that you can at least see that I have tried to put reason behind my views, even if your views differ to them. I would call that a healthy debate.

 

 

I don't think there can be a helthy discussion with someone who interprets everything that is said or done, has been said or done or could possibly have been said or done as part of a global conspiracy. There cannot be a healthy discussion with someone who insists on sticking to some erroneous information from unreliable sources and actually refuses to read what the author has said about the series. Why do you think that Wikipedia can possibly know more about WoT than RJ? Where could they possibly get the information from?

 

Ludmian, if I want to talk about the merits of an argument about George R R Martin stretching his series, I will do it on a Martin fan site. Whether Martin stretched his series is really moot when we talk in terms of this thread. It is WOT I am talking about and whether or not other authors do or do not stretch their series is irrelevant to this thread. It is another issue that we could debate on another thread or website.

 

As kilika has kindly pointed out above, this thread has gone off-topic long ago. It couldn't possibly do any more harm if you reply to a simple yes/no question. Again, you said

 

Please don't delude yourself that this can somehow blow out to 14 books accidently. Surely when you conceive something and have a rough idea of the story when you give an idea on number of books, you have worked out a rough plot arc and have some idea what the climaxes will be for each book. To take it to as many books as it has been taken is purely and simply a way of stringing it out.

 

When a series expands from 6 books to 14 (it didn't actually, but that's what you say) it means it is being stretched deliberately and people who think otherwise are deluded. Does this rule only work with these numbers, or when a series expands from 3 books to at least 7 it means that it's being stretched deliberately as well? You don't mind talking about GRRM, Tolkien and other writers elsewhere in this thread. Why do you refuse to give a simple yes/no answer to a question? Or if you really think that 2-3 letters needed to answer this question don't belong here, you can find a thread about ASOIAF on the General discussion board (there was at least one, probably, more) and reply there.

 

As for lies, insults and BS, is that your response to anybody with a diffrent opinion to you?

 

No, only to people who post lies, insults, and BS. Even in such cases I usually try to be diplomatic, but one can tolerate only as much BS, lies and insults before he simply has to start to call a spade a spade, and as it turned out, discussing splitting AMoL with people like RAW, Cubarey and Roxinos can quickly exhaust your tolerance to such things. Need examples from your posts?

 

My understanding of this series was that it was originally conceived as a trilogy and then early on Jordan admitted that he saw it becoming a 6 book series.

 

Could be taken for a misinformed opinion, but as you insist on sticking to this misinformation, then it's a lie.

 

I know that jordan died before the series was finished just to piss everyone off

 

Horrible insulting BS.

 

writing new spring instead of working on the core books when he knew he was in bad health is proof of that.

 

A lie.

 

After every book from about book seven onwards, he kept saying he was only about 2 away from finishing:

 

A lie.

 

"In a online chat on the USA Today Web site,

 

I've already explained why I consider this quote a dirty trick on your part. Strangely, you prefer to ignore what I said about it.

 

Were you one of those kids who had a sissy fit when your mum told you to share your toys, or maybe you are from Gen Y where nobody ever said no to you, and you blaze up into an inferno of self righteousness when someone has a different view on something you are so set on.

 

An insult.

 

Need I go on?

 

I apologise if I have a less than perfect view of an author you see through rose-coloured glasses. Welcome to the real world, Ludmian. Oh that's right, having a diffrent opinion to one element of RJ's and Tor's work to you is bringing bad blood to this site.

 

No, it isn't. Posting BS, a few examples of which I've mentioned above, is. Your attempts to twist whatever quote one provides to make it look like it supports your point of view is. Your direct refusal to get acquainted with a few facts about the series and your insistence that you continue to stick to your uninformed opinion based on a few unreliable sources are. Again, it's IMHO.

 

 

I can't fully agree with you on it not being a planned 6 book series. I have by no means read everything to do with WOT, but there is a lot of info on the web (see some of my examples in earlier posts) that do say it was originally planned and sold as a 6 book series.

 

That's what I was talking about. Disregard the facts and stick to some half-truths and obvious errors that you found somewhere, just because they support your views better.

 

ps: can anyone tell me how to paraphrase a quote in the boxes like everyone does on their posts. I'm a bit technologically challenged on that one, and it would make life simpler on some posts???

 

If you are replying to a particular post click "Quote" above that particular post. If you want to quote someone's post as you are writing your own scroll down the "post reply" page and click "Insert Quote" above the post you want to quote (several recent posts are shown on that page, not sure how many). If you are responding to a particular part of a long post it's better to delete everything but the part you are responding to after that so that the page wouldn't be cluttered with unnecessary quotes. Don't accidentally delete the quote tags. In both cases your quote will be linked to the post you are quoting. If you need to single out some portion of the text in your post as a quote, then highlight it and click the "Insert Quote" button (the second button from right to left in the second row of buttons on the page, just above the smilies). It's always better to use the preview button before you post, to make sure everything is OK in your post.

[Eighty89]

Ludmian, thanks for the quote tip, but i couldn't quite work it out. Will have to play around with it when i have more time. I'll put your quotes in another colour to distinguish them and leave my responses in normal colour.

 

"I don't think there can be a helthy discussion with someone who interprets everything that is said or done, has been said or done or could possibly have been said or done as part of a global conspiracy."

 

Don't know how you interpret this as me thinking there is a global conspiracy. It's just a gravy train belief. Simple as that. A combination of greed (Tor the main contributor I feel) and an author on a good meal ticket who also got carried away and overindulged in his work to the detriment of his overall art. No global conspiracy. That's a bit much.

 

"Why do you think that Wikipedia can possibly know more about WoT than RJ? Where could they possibly get the information from?"

 

Wikipedia gets its info from everyday people. That is the whole concept. It relies on weight of numbers to refine the info on it. It is an open document. The quote from wikipedia was backed up by the same quote from numerous other sites (check the history of this thread). I don't think they know more than RJ concerning WOT (never said that). My argument is that RJ and Tor, etc have been providing misleading info over a number of books. See my post on excuses, justifications, etc. These go hand in hand with the sliding 3 more books to go quotes you found me. Like i said all i can do is provide evidence / quotes / info and my humble opinion on them. Of course, this obviously differs to yours.

 

"When a series expands from 6 books to 14 (it didn't actually, but that's what you say) it means it is being stretched deliberately and people who think otherwise are deluded. Does this rule only work with these numbers, or when a series expands from 3 books to at least 7 it means that it's being stretched deliberately as well? You don't mind talking about GRRM, Tolkien and other writers elsewhere in this thread. Why do you refuse to give a simple yes/no answer to a question? Or if you really think that 2-3 letters needed to answer this question don't belong here, you can find a thread about ASOIAF on the General discussion board (there was at least one, probably, more) and reply there."

 

The only time I brought up Martin was in relation to killing off characters (never about stringing his series out). So I don't believe it is relevant to my argument about stringing out WOT. For the record, i have not read past book 2, so I cannot really comment on whether he is stringing it out (I can't provide a personal opinion on whether the writing has declined, secondary characters have been given too much time, unnecessary tangents have been taken, etc. But what does it matter whether I think other writers do or don't strectch out series? I am talking about WOT in this thread.

 

"No, only to people who post lies, insults, and BS."

 

I've posted no lies, just opinions. All quotes have been found on the internet (make of them what you will) or have been quotes from fellow posters. Personal opinion isn't lies. Insults have been very tame and you've certainly slung enough of your own mud. BS: see my comment on lies. Same thing really.

 

My understanding of this series was that it was originally conceived as a trilogy and then early on Jordan admitted that he saw it becoming a 6 book series.

 

"Could be taken for a misinformed opinion, but as you insist on sticking to this misinformation, then it's a lie."

 

Allow me to again post the quote from Tom Doherty:

 

From http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrilogyCreep:

 

"At World Con 2008 Tom Doherty of Tor Books finally put this long-standing rumour to rest: it was originally planned to be six books when Robert Jordan proposed the series to him in 1984, before he even started writing the first book."

 

That quote is found in numerous other places. Doesn't sound like misinformed opinion to me?

 

I know that jordan died before the series was finished just to piss everyone off

 

Horrible insulting BS.

 

I've already explained that i don't agree with this and how it ended up in the post as part of a larger quote i did not cut parts out of. Why revisit?

 

writing new spring instead of working on the core books when he knew he was in bad health is proof of that.

 

A lie.

 

Not my quote. One part of larger post i used in reasoning for another point, so same explanation as the last paragraph.

 

After every book from about book seven onwards, he kept saying he was only about 2 away from finishing:

 

A lie.

 

It's not a lie. About 2 (about being a key word) is not very different to 3 really (only 1 number), now is it? I couldn't find the exact quotes at the time, but you so kindly did find numerous examples of the 3 book quote, eg:

 

"at least three more books to finish"

 

or

 

"I cannot see how to do it in fewer than three books. That isn’t a guarantee, mind!"

 

This last quote is the crux of my argument. It isn't a firm answer. It allowed him to string it out without being pinned down to naming how many. The firm response didn't come out to he started talking about one more book for AMOL (sadly now 3).

 

Were you one of those kids who had a sissy fit when your mum told you to share your toys, or maybe you are from Gen Y where nobody ever said no to you, and you blaze up into an inferno of self righteousness when someone has a different view on something you are so set on.

 

"An insult."

 

 

Yep. Say it like i see it.

 

"Need I go on?"

 

I'm sure you will.

 

"Your attempts to twist whatever quote one provides to make it look like it supports your point of view is. Your direct refusal to get acquainted with a few facts about the series and your insistence that you continue to stick to your uninformed opinion based on a few unreliable sources are. Again, it's IMHO."

 

It's not twisting. It's using quotes or info to support my reasoning. That's the whole idea. Just like a debator (sp?) or writing an essay. I use quotes / info to support my view. Like i said, that's the whole idea of building a case. Let me use your line if i may: "Again, it's IMHO". You may view it as "twisting" because it differs from your view. Sounds a bit like kid who responds with name calling because they can't think of a structured or sensible argument.

 

"Disregard the facts and stick to some half-truths and obvious errors that you found somewhere, just because they support your views better."

 

There are no obvious errors. It's all material that is out there. It's all up for interpretation. And what do you mean by facts? Please don't tell me you are going to argue that just because Robert Jordan or Tor or Harriet or Brandon say something that it is an absolute fact. One of the main points of my argument is that they have been putting out misleading comments and constantly changing their story. Like I said, who of that group would come right out and say yep, we're milking the series???

 

I am simply using my opinion of where the story has gone in terms of initial forecast length, declining quality, padding, tangents, focus on secondary characters, sliding comments about how many books left, numerous quotes and information from the web, etc, etc, etc (see all my previous posts) again, to put across my view on one particular issue.