Nicola's CoT Foretelling/Foretellings about Rand

[Majsju]

So we agree Nicola has made predictions about the Dragon Reborn, other Aes Sedai heard it, and they are "impossible" in the opinion of the Aes Sedai?  The debate is the number of "impossible" things Nicola predicted? That is what is at stake here?  If not, correct me, that's what I gleaned from this post.

 

Assuming you are right and nine is not the correct number, what does it gain anyone to nitpick the number of things Nicola predicted?  I keep stressing it because I want to be clear that this the only place where we seem to differ based on what I read.  And I don't get why anyone would care enough to make a fuss.  I mean think about it ...

 

It makes a world of difference. Reading the quote as Nicola having had Foretellings about Rand doing exactly nine things that each and everyone seems impossible to Aes Sedai would imply that there should be a detailed list of well defined things for Rand to do.

Reading it as a figure of speech means that Nicola Foretold that Rand would do an unknown number of things that ranges from improbable to extremely unlikely. Given the vague nature of Foretellings, some of the Foretellings could even refer to the same thing.

 

The difference in how you read this also has a direct impact in how you view the context of the quote. Reading it as eactly nine things shifts the focus to these mysterious things Rand is supposed to do. Reading it as a figure of speech shifts the focus to Nicola, and her personality. Ie the personality that makes her want to be special, that makes her attempt to blackmail Egwene, spy on Aes Sedai to learn complicated weaves, and in the end run away from Egwenes Aes Sedai.

And looking at the books, which one is important to focus on? Rand doing a bunch of crazy things? We already knew that. Nicola being trouble however...We kinda knew that as well, but added focus on her means more foreshadowing thah she will have an important part to play in the future.

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

What is clear is that Nicola have Foretold (or at least claims to) that Rand will do a number of things that to the Aes Sedai knowledge seems, if not impossible at least extremely unlikely. The exact number of thins is unknown, though we can be fairly certain it is more than just a few, as it apparently have caused Aes Sedai to question the truthfulness about Nicolas claims.

So we agree Nicola has made predictions about the Dragon Reborn, other Aes Sedai heard it, and they are "impossible" in the opinion of the Aes Sedai? The debate is the number of "impossible" things Nicola predicted? That is what is at stake here? If not, correct me, that's what I gleaned from this post.

No. We don't even know if Nicola made a Foretelling, nor what the contents of it were if she did, whether there were any specific things mentioned, whether any specific number of things was mentioned, or how possible or otherwise the hypothetical things she hypothetically Foretold were. There is nothing of use there.

 

But I think we're all missing the important part of that Foretelling: "visions that might be Tarmon Gai'don or a bilious stomach..." I think this is an indication that TG will take place within a bilious stomach. It's the only answer that makes sense.

[thatsnotgood]

Just pointing this out, RJ is using Nicole through Tiana as a vehicle to foreshadow.  And nine really seems very specific to me, as in the number made a imprint on the AS and is important enough to RJ to let his readers speculate on.  If it weren't he would have Tiana say something on the lines of "and claims the dragon will do some impossible things" something like that.  But nine? Who really pulls nine out of the air? No RJ had some specific goals for Rand to accomplish.  And if it were really irrelevant comment about how the Nicole was just trying to set herself up, you would think RJ wouldn't have mentioned it with battles with AS and Ashaman, and Egwene being captured.

 

 

 

But I think we're all missing the important part of that Foretelling: "visions that might be Tarmon Gai'don or a bilious stomach..." I think this is an indication that TG will take place within a bilious stomach. It's the only answer that makes sense.

 

Really? Reaaaalllly?? You think in that the important foreshadowing in this is queasy stomachs?  Not the amyrlin captured, or battles between Asha'Man and AS, or even up coming battles with seanchen.  Or the impossible things Rand will do, which have to be up there with Cleansing the male half of the source, which is pretty effing cool.

 

I wrote that then realized you must be kidding.

[Titan Orion]

Rand has survived this long with 3 loves and no headaches. Thats one out of the way

[thatsnotgood]

 

Various figures of speech and cultural symbols use numbers that are not mathematically related to the actual subject matter at hand.  Doing "nine impossible things" reads just like one of those colloquialisms.

 

No it doesn't.

[zanotam]

No it doesn't.

 

Oh, I'm sorry.  Thanks for clearing that up for me with a well thought out, thoroughly supported argument.  We can all rest easy now.   ;D

 

Yes, yes we can.  ::)

[a5m]

If it weren't he would have Tiana say something on the lines of "and claims the dragon will do some impossible things" something like that.  But nine? Who really pulls nine out of the air? No RJ had some specific goals for Rand to accomplish.

 

Whether the Foretellings are real or not, Tiana clearly doesn't believe them, and would have no reason to transmit them to Egwene in verbatim form.  The use of colloquialisms is common in dismissive language meant to trivialize something, which is precisely what Tiana is doing.

 

So RJ put in the extra words just so we wouldn't discuss this. We have so many other examples of RJ doing this that it should have been really obvious to us. Thanks for reminding us.

[thatsnotgood]

No it doesn't.

 

Oh, I'm sorry.  Thanks for clearing that up for me with a well thought out, thoroughly supported argument.  We can all rest easy now.   ;D

 

Yes, yes we can.  ::)

 

LoL  - why use a lot of words when a few will do?   

 

 

 

So RJ put in the extra words just so we wouldn't discuss this. We have so many other examples of RJ doing this that it should have been really obvious to us. Thanks for reminding us.

 

I agree 100%

[water_seeker]

Various figures of speech and cultural symbols use numbers that are not mathematically related to the actual subject matter at hand.  Doing "nine impossible things" reads just like one of those colloquialisms.

 

I was going to bring this up and provide an example of "nine" used that way.  I know at one point someone says "nine kinds of idiot" or somesuch (could be woolhead or some other insult).  I wish I could provide the reference to that, but I don't remember where it is.  I'm doing a readthrough and if I see it and remember I'll post it.

[seasnake]

Generally when something is a colloquialism or sarcastic, it is spelled out as such.  Nine kinds of idiot clearly gives the lie to what is going on:  He's calling himself a fool.

 

Again, saying she's predicted 9 impossible things from an Aes Sedai should be considered proof of an objective belief on the part of the Aes Sedai UNLESS THERE IS SOMETHING TO INDICATE OTHERWISE.  RJ was too good an author to leave ironic statements unclear, he quickly clears them up by talking about tone and context. 

 

It's the same as I said earlier.  If Uno said to Rand we lost 9 soldiers to the Trollocs, would we assume Uno was using a figure of speech?  If not, why should we assume the same for Tiana's summation, we have Nicola predicting a number of things that seem impossible that Rand will do, why should we just dismiss the nine?  The only argument I've heard for this line of thinking is "We don't know if she meant nine things or not" to which I respond "We never know if the characters mean what they say, they could all be lying/wrong/using colloquialisms." 

 

Heck, maybe the phrase "cleansing Saidin" is just a colloquialism for scoring with an Aes Sedai (referring to the impossibility of it) and Rand is telling everyone he "cleansed Saidin" because he got it on with Elayne, and all the Asha'man are crazy and taking it literally.

 

Well, we have to start somewhere with something, and 9 is as good a number as any, and we have no reason not to take it seriously.  So if people want to speculate, fine.

[Majsju]

Again, saying she's predicted 9 impossible things from an Aes Sedai should be considered proof of an objective belief on the part of the Aes Sedai UNLESS THERE IS SOMETHING TO INDICATE OTHERWISE.  RJ was too good an author to leave ironic statements unclear, he quickly clears them up by talking about tone and context.  

 

Something to indicate otherwise...Like Tiana strongly doubting that Nicola actually had all these Foretellings in the first place?

And lets look at the comment about the "nine impossible things", where it comes in Tianas little rant. It is one of the examples she gives of "[...]sort of thing anyone in the camp with half a brain and a credulous nature might think of".

Now, if there had actually been nine specific impossible things Rand would do, would she not have considered it a little bit more important?

[Kivam]

I believe the 9 impossible things are.

 

defeating ishamael at falme.

Drawing callandor

Bringing rain to the waste.

Defeating the seanchan in illian.

Cleansing saidin (and bringing the end of illusion)

Win last battle

Come back to life again.

 

ok still need 2, but those 7 are close i think.

 

You realize that most of those happened before Nicola's foretellings and therefore can't qualify, right?

[luftstark]

Good lads. 

 

Now that we have all of that discussion clear out... let's try to make an effort to ignore the light headed ppl (me included) that like to speculate on things that we will never really know...

 

In an effort to do so, i would like to rephrase the question proposed at the beggining of the topic:

 

Does anyone have any guess on what may be those foretolds that nicola may have had and that Tiana dismissed as impossible?

 

They may be 9, they may be 5, they may be 148. All of them may be true foretells, none of them may be true foretells ... but well.. let's play a little with the WoT books.

 

And lads, no more useless discussion okay?

[Kivam]

Good lads. 

 

Now that we have all of that discussion clear out... let's try to make an effort to ignore the light headed ppl (me included) that like to speculate on things that we will never really know...

 

In an effort to do so, i would like to rephrase the question proposed at the beggining of the topic:

 

Does anyone have any guess on what may be those foretolds that nicola may have had and that Tiana dismissed as impossible?

 

They may be 9, they may be 5, they may be 148. All of them may be true foretells, none of them may be true foretells ... but well.. let's play a little with the WoT books.

 

And lads, no more useless discussion okay?

 

One was that bela would kill Asmodean.

[mb]

-Heal death or at least put life into a dead body

-Clean the Ways maybe with getting rid of Machin Shin

-Do actual flying with the One Power

-Convert darkfriends and/or Forsaken to the Light

-Cleanse other Taint-made things

Some other guesses about what Nicola might have said:

-Walk around invisible

-Channel through a stedding

Some other guesses:

-Giving a non-channeler the ability to channel

-Destroy or kill the Dark One

 

[a5m]

"Nine impossible things" clearly gives the impression that Tiana doesn't believe Nicola is Foretelling; she's calling Nicola a liar.

 

I have no doubt what Tiana thinks. I also have no doubt that Aes Sedai tend to be wrong an awful lot.

 

Like how many Kin there are. And how old they think they are. And that only (young) girls should be novices. Oh, wait, they've partially figured out they were wrong on that one. And that no two Ter'angreal have ever been found that do the same thing. Oops, except maybe a small number that know that the black ajah took 13 that allow access to the world of dreams. Or that stilling can't be healed. Hmm, I guess some of them are starting to be right more often...

 

The good news is that healing stilling isn't one of the nine.

[a5m]

And lads, no more useless discussion okay?

 

It's OK not to participate if you'd rather not. I'm sure there are other threads of more interest to you. Just ignore the small group that wants to waste time here...

[water_seeker]

Once again RAW has pointed out exactly what I wanted to say.  Although, he does a better job of it.

[a5m]

Just because Tiana used the phrase "nine impossible things" doesn't mean that Nicola said either "nine" or "impossible things" in any of her Foretellings.  In fact, predicting that the Dragon Reborn would do anything that is impossible would be a contradiction.

 

So, to respond to luftstark, ending "useless discussion" means ending this thread.  Which I would be fine with.

 

So I gather you think Tiana lied. That, of course, would make her black ajah. Or we're back to Tiana thinking that the things Nicola said were impossible so they couldn't have been true. Either way, there are people that would like to discuss this prior to the completing of the last three books. I appreciate that the vocal minority on this site already knows everything there is to know about this fantasy series but the rest of us would be very happy to waste out time speculating.

[Gentled Ben]

Just because Tiana used the phrase "nine impossible things" doesn't mean that Nicola said either "nine" or "impossible things" in any of her Foretellings.  In fact, predicting that the Dragon Reborn would do anything that is impossible would be a contradiction.

 

So, to respond to luftstark, ending "useless discussion" means ending this thread.  Which I would be fine with.

 

So I gather you think Tiana lied. That, of course, would make her black ajah. Or we're back to Tiana thinking that the things Nicola said were impossible so they couldn't have been true. Either way, there are people that would like to discuss this prior to the completing of the last three books. I appreciate that the vocal minority on this site already knows everything there is to know about this fantasy series but the rest of us would be very happy to waste out time speculating.

But it's not just your time that you waste, but forum space, and the time of any member or guest who stops to wade through such a thread. Pointless threads clutter the forum and bury the viable discussions beneath a bunch of fluff. The thread was fine when it started, but once it's been demonstrated that Nicola has not actually Foretold 9 impossible things that Rand will do,  the thread should die or move to Fiddlesticks, the same as the Woman Dead and Gone thread.

 

The forum can only display so many topics per page, and at the time of this posting, on the front page, there are two threads which are pointless--this one and the Woman Dead and Gone thread, and three threads that are basically the same thing: It Seems to Me..., The Shadow's Poor Tactics, and DO a Moron. I think it's great that DM has this sudden influx of new members, but if we want our book discussion forum to continue to thrive, it needs to be tended better than it has been lately, and it falls on the members, not the mods. We're the ones who start the threads, and we're the ones who keep them going or let them die. RAW is taking care of a forum that he has invested a lot of time in, while others, in their own words, wish to waste time. *Points to Fiddlesticks* Go waste time there; that's what that board is for.

[a5m]

The incredible waste of space in this thread is only the repeated attempts to tell us we shouldn't talk about this subject. The insistence of the longer time participants to try to control the conversions is incredible.

 

I figure this site has about 2-3 more years before it becomes a shell. That is about the amount of time it will take TOR to finish the series. At that time, I will know whether this thread or dozens of other speculation threads were correct or not. I figure most of the conclusions this group has come up with will be wrong.

 

Most other forums I participate in know that lack of response is a good way to kill a thread. Responding that it should end only keeps it going. I guess you hadn't actually noticed that when reading through this thread. Or, you haven't really read through it.

 

We do NOT know what Nicola foretold, and only the completion of the series will tell us whether RJ was trying to fore shadow here. We are speculating that there WAS a fore shadowing here and are trying to determine what that might be. I invite you to go back to the endless discussions about how Tarmon Gai'don will play out. I'll patiently wait for the final books as I have for the last 17 years since I started listening to/reading it.

[Majsju]

So I gather you think Tiana lied. That, of course, would make her black ajah.

 

The Oath against lying does not work that way.

[a5m]

So I gather you think Tiana lied. That, of course, would make her black ajah.

 

The Oath against lying does not work that way.

 

The statement was written sarcastically. Her comment in the book was more of exasperation. Most here don't seem to pick up the nuances in either one at all.

 

Most Aes Sedai are not handling the end of this age very well. Tiana is one of them. She told us basically that she's having a hard time with Nicola and blurted out why. The question remains in my mind whether RJ was putting in some important fore shadowing here or not. The question remains in my mind as to whether this part of that dialog was important to the story or not. I won't make a conclusion on this until I've read some or all of the remaining unreleased books. In the mean time, I still think it is as significant as the rest of the comments made by Tiana at that time. And this significance could have changed with RJ's death and Brandon will not necessarily play it out the same way RJ might have. Yet we will still end up with a complete story line with only the minor details being changed.

 

My only speculation about the "Things" at this time are that the cleansing of Saidin is one of them. I think that Nicola has been foretelling since significantly prior to that event and one of the problems Tiana has with her and Areina is that since they want to be noticed that they keep repeating the same things over and over again. For a character from this age it would be very hard to believe that that could be accomplished at this time. And we know that the rebel Aes Sedai are not aware that Saidin is clean. Though if they really believed that time as a wheel, then it would be obvious that it must be able to be cleaned if it was before the DO tainted it. It's not a matter of if but a matter of when. Even Cadsuane is having a hard time believing it and she was there. She calls it "one of the most important questions" ever and she is still not sure.

 

Hence why this series is a FANTASY. Time is not a wheel, it is linear and things do not repeat themselves except in RJ's world. It's amazing how in reading some of these comments that I'm not sure that the writer is really aware of that.

[a5m]

The incredible waste of space in this thread is only the repeated attempts to tell us we shouldn't talk about this subject.

 

ludicrous.  Laughable.  Ridiculous.  A demonstration of a lack of understanding.  Silliness.

 

You are entitled to express your wrong, misinterpretative opinion.  And I'm entitled to tell you about it.

 

You post a lot. When you post facts from the series, your posts are quite good. When you post your opinion, not so.

 

I'm gathering rather then letting the thread drift down do to lack of activity, you feel the need to respond telling us how silly we are being which puts it back in the forefront. Or you feel you need to reply to have the last word. Either way, so be it. I'm willing to hear that for the next two of three years until Brandon finishes the series. At that point in time, I won't care. In the mean time, I'll know that the thread will stay active for those that do want to discuss this.

 

So I'm gather you think that the statement had zero chance of being foreshadowing. Interesting since everything else Tiana said then we think is foreshadowing.

[Mr Ares]

Good lads. 

 

Now that we have all of that discussion clear out... let's try to make an effort to ignore the light headed ppl (me included) that like to speculate on things that we will never really know...

 

In an effort to do so, i would like to rephrase the question proposed at the beggining of the topic:

 

Does anyone have any guess on what may be those foretolds that nicola may have had and that Tiana dismissed as impossible?

 

They may be 9, they may be 5, they may be 148. All of them may be true foretells, none of them may be true foretells ... but well.. let's play a little with the WoT books.

 

And lads, no more useless discussion okay?

One was that bela would kill Asmodean.

*Kneecaps Kivam* These things have to be done.