The "Tearing" at the end of tDR and the emergence of LTT

[chemteach1977]

During my reread in preparation for book 12, I noticed something that may shed light on the appearance of LTT.  I do not have the books in front of me at the moment to quote. However, during Rand's battle with Ishy at the very end of tDR, Ishy attacks and Rand describes a ripping or tearing of his very soul.  He is only able to overcome the attack by grasping Callandor. 

 

IIRC, there is no evidence of LTT appearing prior to this attack.  It seems logical to me, based on the description, that this attack somehow precipitates the emergence of LTT by somehow destabilizing Rand's soul or at least the connection between that soul and his body?

 

Take a quick look at the appropriate section and let me know what you think.

[Eleint]

The OP can play with souls to a degree.  The hedgehog carving put Faile's soul into T'A'R to such a degree that her body would eventually die, it was said.  I look at what Ishy did as a stronger, more immediate sort of thing.

 

As for it being the cause of LTT, I don't think so.  But then, I've said elsewhere I think LTT is just a secondary personality grown up around memories rather than the 'real' LTT.

[Roxinos]

As for it being the cause of LTT, I don't think so.  But then, I've said elsewhere I think LTT is just a secondary personality grown up around memories rather than the 'real' LTT.

 

If the personality is the same as LTT in the AoL, the memories are the same, and the soul is the same, then what's the difference between the personality that's in Rand's head and the "real" LTT?

 

As for it being the cause of LTT, it has been mentioned before.

[Kadere]

HA! I actually heard this theory years ago and really liked it. I actually agreed with it for a few years.

 

But there are some problems which Luckers will point out as soon as he sees this. One of the main ones being that Lews Therin grows gradually in Rand's head. The "ripping" happens a few months before TSR even starts, and we don't hear Lews until chapter 9. And then Lews only appears speratically until LoC. If the ripping brought out Lews it's more likely that Lews would just be there instantly and not grow in any degree, since there are no further rippings throughout the series.

 

It's more likely that Lews is a figment created by the Taint's effect on Rand. This leaning much more to what Semirhage says in KoD.

 

Still, it is a cool theory.

[chemteach1977]

I am still up in the air about the whole LTT is real or not deal.  Seems like the damage could have been done by Ishy's attack and LTT just started to gradually "leak" through gaps as it were.

[water_seeker]

In tGH we get a bunch of italicized thoughts from Rand that are clearly just him thinking.  In chp 3 though we get the following after he distances himself from Mat and Perrin:

 

Well, a voice in his head taunted, you did it, didn't you.  I had to, he told it.  I will be dangerous just to be around.  Blood and ashes, I'm going to go mad, and....No!  No, I won't!  I will not use the Power, and then I won't go mad, and...But I can't risk it.  I can't, don't you see??  But the voice only laughed at him.

 

This is the first time we see any such dialogue in his mind where he seems to be talking to somebody.  This really sounds like later conversations with LTT where LTT comments and ends up laughing.  I'm pretty sure this is where it starts.  Especially when you consider "that Lews Therin grows gradually in Rand's head."

[Kadere]

In tGH we get a bunch of italicized thoughts from Rand that are clearly just him thinking.  In chp 3 though we get the following after he distances himself from Mat and Perrin:

 

Well, a voice in his head taunted, you did it, didn't you.  I had to, he told it.  I will be dangerous just to be around.  Blood and ashes, I'm going to go mad, and....No!  No, I won't!  I will not use the Power, and then I won't go mad, and...But I can't risk it.  I can't, don't you see??  But the voice only laughed at him.

 

This is the first time we see any such dialogue in his mind where he seems to be talking to somebody.  This really sounds like later conversations with LTT where LTT comments and ends up laughing.  I'm pretty sure this is where it starts.  Especially when you consider "that Lews Therin grows gradually in Rand's head."

 

I'm pretty sure he's just talking to himself as people some times do. Working out his conscience as it were. Talking to Lews is very different then what's happening here.

[water_seeker]

People say that, but it fits perfectly.  IDK why ppl have a hard time accepting that it may just be the first appearance of LTT.

[Kadere]

Cause Lews doesn't talk like that and Rand doesn't recognize it as someone else's voice. He's not disturbed by it at all because it's his own.

[RobertAlexWillis]

People say that, but it fits perfectly.  IDK why ppl have a hard time accepting that it may just be the first appearance of LTT.

 

Because the same type of wording is used with Nynaeve, and others.  I don't think they ALL have crazy dead men in their heads.

[water_seeker]

Cause Lews doesn't talk like that and Rand doesn't recognize it as someone else's voice. He's not disturbed by it at all because it's his own.

 

All the voice says is "Well, you did it, didn't you." and laughs...we know he laughs alot.  Rand is under pressure at this point, he's got a ton of stuff going through his head, so a quick thought may not disturb him.  Also if the LTT voice grows slowly then maybe he starts out sounding like Rand and then eventually differentiates.

 

Because the same type of wording is used with Nynaeve, and others.  I don't think they ALL have crazy dead men in their heads.

 

That's not really an argument against the idea.  No one says they have crazy dead men in their heads, but Rand does have a crazy dead man in his.  I'm just saying that this is the first time Rand hears LTT...he just doesn't recognize it as such for w/e reson.

 

...

 

Ok, I’m not sure if at the time he began writing tGH RJ was still thinking 3 books or if he was leaning more towards 6, but either way if the Rand/LTT sub-plot was one he intended from the start, he would have had to start it early in the story to have time to flesh it out.

 

Another argument from the RJ side of things is that the man was a master of subtlety.  There are a number of idea’s he introduced into the story and we had no idea he was doing it.  No one I know of linked Rand’s strange behavior in tEotW to his channeling on their first read-through.

 

Now, I know there are people who are going to say chapter 3 of book 2 is just too early for Rand to start going mad from channeling.  That argument only works if LTT in Rand’s head is a byproduct of insanity.  There is a major difference here though.  Going mad and having a voice in your head is fundamentally different than having the voice/personality of an ACTUAL person in your head.  In the first, the voice is the result of the insanity, in the second, the voice could be the cause of the insanity (lol, I kid, but that is the rub).

 

The fact is, we don’t know exactly why LTT took up residence in Rand’s head (we just know that so far it’s a good thing).  Has the Dragon soul got itself a split personality?  I tend to lean towards the Pattern doing one of those balance things it likes so much.  Rand is wholly underdeveloped to take on the task that’s set before him.  The Forsaken have all the knowledge of the Power that is lost to Aes Sedai, and the AS are way more knowledgeable than Rand.  LTT in his head gives him an advantage if he’s smart enough to utilize it.  At the same time Rand’s lack of knowledge means he needs to be creative so now he has his creativity and LTTs knowledge…that makes him powerful and dangerous.

 

And then there is this:

 

It was Rand’s turn to gasp.  He knew them.  Men, not all in armor, and women.  Their clothes and their weapons came from every Age, but he knew them all…They were little more than a hundred, Rand saw, and realized that somehow he had known that they would be…“Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages.  You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh.”  He [Hawkwing] was looking at Rand.

 

He knows them by name, by more than one name for some, he knew how many there would be, and the most striking in here is that Hawkwing looked at Rand and talked to LTT saying “when you wore flesh.”  LTT is there in Rand, but not in flesh at the end of tGH and Hawkwing speaks to him, not Rand.  Provided he didn’t get there during the unfortunate trip from portal stone to portal stone or before then, there was little time between the portal stone and the blowing of the horn for LTT to get there.

 

So yes, I do believe that chapter 3 is the first instance of LTT and Rand chatting it up in Rand’s head.  It's not out of question when you look at the fact that LTT is there (in Rand) at the end of the same book.

 

[Roxinos]

So yes, I do believe that chapter 3 is the first instance of LTT and Rand chatting it up in Rand’s head.  It's not out of question when you look at the fact that LTT is there (in Rand) at the end of the same book.

 

The greatest argument against this is simple.

 

Assuming that chapter 3 of The Great Hunt is not the first instance of Lews Therin appearing in Rand's head, the instance after it is two books later. In The Shadow Rising, Lews Therin appears again, but not nearly as strongly as you presume he appears in The Great Hunt. And from that point, he clearly develops, coming out more and more strongly. This in direct counterpoint to the strength Lews Therin supposedly appears in The Great Hunt.

 

It just doesn't make sense.

 

That's not really an argument against the idea.

 

Yes, it is. The notion of "a voice in his/her head said" is a tool used by many writers.

 

It is an argument against it because you're using that single line as the basis for why the rest of that italicized thought bit is Lews Therin speaking rather than merely Rand. If it had instead said, "Rand thought," we wouldn't be having this argument. But the effect remains the same. Jordan chose "a voice in his/her head said" and the back and forth manner to underscore how Rand was dealing with the pressure of knowing he was going to go mad, and dealing with thoughts that he didn't want to have.

[water_seeker]

In The Shadow Rising, Lews Therin appears again, but not nearly as strongly as you presume he appears in The Great Hunt.

 

Not nearly as strong?  From what I can see LTT is there pretty darn strong in tSR.  Rand grabs callindor after being pestered by Lanfear to do so.

 

Rand was not even aware he had channeled until it was done; he could not have said what he had done if his life depended upon it.

 

And then when he did the special cast that killed all the shadowspawn he notices the complexity of the weave and had no idea what it was...he wanted to release it but didn't until the voice says "now."  He's handling major amounts of the power and dealing with major taint, if this voice is LTT (which everyone believes it is) it's very possible that he's guiding Rands flows with the Power.  That would be way more there than the ONE sentence, "Well, you did it, didn't you." and a laugh.

 

No...making a sarcastic remark is WAY more there than what we see in tSR...

 

And what does the "voice in his/her head" tool have to do with an argument against the idea?  If anything it helps to introduce the idea of LTT in Rands head by starting it off familiar...just the thing RJ would do.

[Roxinos]

Not nearly as strong?  From what I can see LTT is there pretty darn strong in tSR.  Rand grabs callindor after being pestered by Lanfear to do so.

 

The supposed first instance of Lews Therin appearing in The Shadow Rising is as follows:

 

"Kill you? she spat incredulously. "Kill you! I mean to have you, forever. You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!"

 

"And you loved power!" For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true--he knew they were true--but where had they come from?

 

No thoughts, no talking to another personality. Just a small bleeding through of emotion and a thought. And Rand is left baffled at the source of the thought, despite knowing it was true.

 

That's a much different instance than what you're proposing was Lews Therin in tGH.

 

I'm not sure what instance you're talking about in reference to Lanfear urging Rand to grab Callandor.

 

No...making a sarcastic remark is WAY more there than what we see in tSR...

 

That's my point. It's much more than what we see later in the series, and later in the series, Lews Therin appearing is a steady process.

 

And what does the "voice in his/her head" tool have to do with an argument against the idea?

 

Because it's a tool. A tool that, if used to introduce a new idea, would cause confusion. As RAW said, it's a tool that was used in many other instances with many other characters in the series. If they all had dead people in their head, it would make sense that in this instance it is the dead person in Rand's head coming to call. However, since we know that Rand is unique, using a tool that is used in every other instance to mean something else would just cause confusion. That's a sign of bad writing.

[a5m]

The greatest argument against this is simple.

 

Assuming that chapter 3 of The Great Hunt is not the first instance of Lews Therin appearing in Rand's head, the instance after it is two books later. In The Shadow Rising, Lews Therin appears again, but not nearly as strongly as you presume he appears in The Great Hunt. And from that point, he clearly develops, coming out more and more strongly. This in direct counterpoint to the strength Lews Therin supposedly appears in The Great Hunt.

Did Rand even have a full chapter POV in tDR? He went off by himself. Figured out how to use bale fire. Learned the flame sword. And talked to himself during tDR.

 

I tend to agree that LTT first appeared as a voice in tGH.

[Roxinos]

I tend to agree that LTT first appeared as a voice in tGH.

 

It may be, but it contrasts with how slowly Lews Therin seems to appear from tSR onwards.

[kamros]

I'm not sure if i agree with that being LTT in chapter 3, because i always assumed it was rand just talking to himself, but it could have been i think.

 

im not very good with theories and whatnot, but i just thought of this while reading this thread.

 

if it was LTT talking to him before(in chapter3 of tGH), it seemed a whole lot more rational than later in the books were he will rant and scream. so my thought is that the taint affects the mind or personality. If that is true then when LTT uses the source to help rand or help guide him, he would be taking the taint and not rand.(that is, of course assuming that rand is being guided by LTT, and that he is a real voice...) so to me this would explain lews getting crazier and rand staying kinda the same. Later in the series when rand starts using the source by himself more and being trained by asmodean he starts to get more of that taint also.

 

sorry im rambling now and im sure noone will understand what im trying to say. but i dont know how to feel about the voice in chapter3.

sorry if someone has posted something like this somewere else also.

[mb]

I posted my own theory about this in a past thread.  Here is the link to the thread:

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,41073.0.html

 

[water_seeker]

I'm not sure if i agree with that being LTT in chapter 3, because i always assumed it was rand just talking to himself, but it could have been i think.

 

It may be, but it contrasts with how slowly Lews Therin seems to appear from tSR onwards.

 

And that's all I ask for...a simple "maybe it's that way, but..." because I don't know that it's LTT talking, but it really seems like it is (to me).

 

if it was LTT talking to him before(in chapter3 of tGH), it seemed a whole lot more rational than later in the books were he will rant and scream.

 

I'm not sure how much rationality we can find in that one phrase, but the fact that the "voice" laughed at his explanation makes me think it wasn't really that rational after all.  That said it seems to me that LTT's sanity waxes and wanes (at least our perception of his sanity), as the story progresses.

[MikeRiley]

That scene in the Great Hunt always reminded me of Edmund thinking to himself after leaving his brother and sisters in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. It was Rand arguing with himself in his head, plain and simple. He knew he was wrong and was upset with it, but also believed he had to do it.

[Azuption]

just puttin it out there that LLT is there so Rand can eat a balefire which will take out his body but then his soul will be free(LLT would get burnt out), and he will be given a choice of whether to go into ishys body or to drift on the pattern until the next time the dragon is needed and die himself in turn.

 

 

just spoiled the whole seris.

 

constant themes. collectivism vs individualism LIGHT VS BAD also taking into account that most of the inspiration for the lore comes from asian myth and teaching 

 

the Dragons choice is to pick them or himself everytime, and so far he has always picked others. hence all this duty quoting.

 

/bow

 

 

 

[Caedn of the Taardad]

I have to throw my support behind Rand just argueing with himself.  It was something which he knew was wrong, channeling, yet knew he couldn't stop.  Besides, I seem to remember there being a very similar argument in Egwene's head at one point, with all the scorn from the voice included...