Christ v. the anti christ the final showdown.

[Rinkai]

OK, So im guessing that its going to be Rand against Morridin at the end, an allusion to the christian christ v antichrist showdown at apocolypse.

 

But I feel that Rand doesn't yet have a good incentive to fight Morridin besides that hes bad. As far as Rand knows, morridin hasn't down anything to him. And hes never seen him besides in Shadar logoth (and then he didn't know what was going on), and in his head.

 

I think in order for Rand to have enough righteous rage to be epic at the end, he needs to be provoked. So the new question is, how will Morridin provoke him.

 

I think he might kidnap Min, Elayne, and Ave. And make Rands nightmare come true. I also think it would be interesting if he got a hold of Tam, and makes Rand confront the whole hes not my dad thing. I think Rand used distance to quiet that down a bit too easily.

 

any other ideas?

[Majsju]

For someone about to go into an epic battle, I would recommend a calm head and focus rather than rage.

[Rinkai]

It just seems so impersonal though. The most intense battle of the age is going to be fought by two people, who have met only once before and didn't really fight each other then, and are fighting because they know that the other is ther enemy? No grudge? no emotion? Just a cold sense of duty and determination? Sounds like a recipe for stale to me. Something has got to happen first.

[Kadere]

Except Moridin is the reincarnation of Ishamael who Rand does have a history with. Not to mention Lews Therin.

[Goramier]

Yes, the simple revelation that Moridin is Ishamael should provide more than enough, especially now that Lews Therin is active in Rand's head.  The knowledge that they've been sharing their head with one of the Forsaken, and Ishy in particular, should be more than sufficient for some emotion.

 

Ok fair enough. But wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest Rand has also ignored those thoughts. How many times has Lews said to "kill them" or "kill him" like for example every time Taim is near and he has ignored it.

[Tumeric]

recent events (book 11) would suggest that it's getting more difficult for Rand to ignore Lew Therin though... given the

[Owners.Inc]

I agree. History between characters makes things interesting.

 

The Lanfear fight was interesting cos of her history with LTT and Rand.

Same for Sam. I didn't really enjoy the Rahvin vs. Rand fight - it seemed too confused for me at first, but then again I'm not particularly bright and too many words confuse me.

 

At the current state, a Moridin vs Rand fight would seem kind of run of the mill light vs dark kind of fight

[water_seeker]

I think that if there is a Rand v. Moridin fight it will blow our minds.

[Jethro]

Rand has already reasoned out that Moridin must be one of the Forsaken, or at the very least, a close adherent to the Dark One, since he used the True Power

 

Erm...Rand never linked the guy he met at Shadar Logoth to the Chosen at all. When he saw Moridin use True Power balefire he only noted that time that there was no weave or drawing of Saidin to be sensed. Lews Therin knows of the True Power, granted, but Rand doesnt know about it. Rand does not know who Moridin is, and after the incedent in Shadar Logoth he never questions why he felt no channeling in his PoV. Not once.

 

I think that if there is a Rand v. Moridin fight it will blow our minds.

 

Agreed, this is the one Im looking forward to most! But I dont think Rand vs Moridin will be the significant one that defeats the Great Lord as some do. I just think it will be awesome if it happens

[water_seeker]

Agreed, this is the one Im looking forward to most! But I dont think Rand vs Moridin will be the significant one that defeats the Great Lord as some do. I just think it will be awesome if it happens

 

I agree.

[Chareen]

This is a good set of theories.  I just hope that the LB doesn't come as an anticlimax (no pun intended).

 

Maybe the DO will give Morridin more power to make the fight more spectacular, but I agree with the idea that there will come another reason for Rand to beat Mor, though we know that they have their reasons already.  I think he will get Elayne in some manner (she being the closest in looks to Ilyena).  Mor, being a bit inhuman, will just assume that this would be the way to hurt him the most, especially if he knows that Lews Therin is already in Rands head.

Does that make sense?

[Eleint]

Erm...Rand never linked the guy he met at Shadar Logoth to the Chosen at all. When he saw Moridin use True Power balefire he only noted that time that there was no weave or drawing of Saidin to be sensed. Lews Therin knows of the True Power, granted, but Rand doesnt know about it. Rand does not know who Moridin is, and after the incedent in Shadar Logoth he never questions why he felt no channeling in his PoV. Not once.

 

Not so:

 

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either. He could remember the Ansaline Gardens, destroyed in the War of the Shadow, as well as he did his father's farm. Knowledge drifted the other way, too. Lews Therin sometimes spoke of Emond's Field as if he had grown up there. Does that make any sense to you?

 

Typos mine, and it goes on from there with more information.  So yes.  Rand knows that the guy channeled the True Power and a bit about it and its importance.

[mb]

I am not sure if Rand would be the one to face Moridin.  Rand's symptom of his face changing might also apply to Moridin; if it does, Perrin might be the more likely candidate because of one of Egwene's dreams (Shadow Rising Chapter 11), and it might be the second time for Perrin to rescue Rand (Min's Viewing, Lord of Chaos Chapter 46).

 

[Jethro]

Erm...Rand never linked the guy he met at Shadar Logoth to the Chosen at all. When he saw Moridin use True Power balefire he only noted that time that there was no weave or drawing of Saidin to be sensed. Lews Therin knows of the True Power, granted, but Rand doesnt know about it. Rand does not know who Moridin is, and after the incedent in Shadar Logoth he never questions why he felt no channeling in his PoV. Not once.

 

Not so:

 

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either. He could remember the Ansaline Gardens, destroyed in the War of the Shadow, as well as he did his father's farm. Knowledge drifted the other way, too. Lews Therin sometimes spoke of Emond's Field as if he had grown up there. Does that make any sense to you?

 

Typos mine, and it goes on from there with more information.  So yes.  Rand knows that the guy channeled the True Power and a bit about it and its importance.

 

Whaaaaat I well dont remember this! Can I get the page reference I must see this properly!

[water_seeker]

I am not sure if Rand would be the one to face Moridin.  Rand's symptom of his face changing might also apply to Moridin; if it does, Perrin might be the more likely candidate because of one of Egwene's dreams (Shadow Rising Chapter 11), and it might be the second time for Perrin to rescue Rand (Min's Viewing, Lord of Chaos Chapter 46).

 

Hmm...Most likely scenorio to a Moridin/Perrin faceoff?  No more Perrin... I don't think any amount of ta'verenness could protect Perrin from Moridin using TP or OP.

[Mik]

Yeah, I was going to bring up the fact that Rand had made the connection between the guy in his head and the True Power, but Eleint got it.  He doesn't know that it is Ishamael in a new body, of course, or even know the name "Moridin", but he knows that the dude has to be one of the Forsaken, either old or new.

Rand might not have pieced it together yet, but he already 'knows' that Ishamael has been given new flesh. Lews Therin his thoughts have revealed to us (and thus Rand) who Ishamael now poses as.

 

However, Moridin's identity could well come out early in any face to face confrontation.  Ishamael seems to have a problem with running off at the mouth around Rand/Lews Therin.

It's usually the other way around; Lews Therin can't stop warning Rand when around Moridin.

[Majsju]

It's usually the other way around; Lews Therin can't stop warning Rand when around Moridin.

 

Eh, Rand has met Moridin once, and LTT does not utter a single word at that time.

[Mik]

It's usually the other way around; Lews Therin can't stop warning Rand when around Moridin.

 

Eh, Rand has met Moridin once, and LTT does not utter a single word at that time.

 

Eh,..

Moridin is in front of Rand a lot. Lews Therin knows.

The following is from LoC, Chapter 42 - The Black Tower.

[between brackets is my view]

 

This trip to the farm had been in Rand’s mind for some time already. He did not like Taim, and Lews Therin would surge around the man, but he could not go on avoiding the place.

 

.../ /...

 

Still, he pushed the Source away as soon as he was through the gateway [Rand gets much closer to Taim], and not only to rid himself of the taint before his stomach emptied itself; it seemed worse than it had been, more vile [What could make the Taint much worse then before he went through? the link to Moridin perhaps], if that was possible. His real reason for abandoning the Power was that he did not think he dared face Taim with saidin in him and Lews Therin in his head.

 

.../ /...

 

Abruptly [Taim] raised his voice. “Kisman! Rochaid! Drag Torval away and douse him until he wakes. No Healing, mind you. Maybe an aching head will teach him to mind his tongue.”

Two men in black coats, younger than Rand, came running and bent over Torval, then hesitated, glancing at Taim. After a moment, Rand felt saidin fill them; flows of Air lifted a limp Torval, and the pair trotted away with him floating between them.

 

I should have killed him [Taim] long ago [Three thousand years ago. See the next few lines for proof], Lews Therin panted. I should have . . . should have . . . there was a stretching toward the Source.

 

No, burn you! Rand thought. No, you don’t! You’re only a bloody voice!

With a fading wail Lews Therin fled.

 

Rand took a slow breath. Taim was looking at him, wearing that almost-smile.

 

.../ /...

 

I will kill him,[Taim] Lews Therin shouted, and Rand felt that fumbling reach toward saidin.

 

Go away, he said firmly. The fumbling continued, and so did the voice.

 

I will kill him, [Taim] and then them. [Kisman, Rochaid & Torval] They must serve him. It is plain; they must serve him. [and Lews Therin is right again; they are new Dreadlords]

 

Go away, Rand shouted back silently. You are nothing but a voice! Stretching toward the Source.

 

Oh, Light, I killed them all. All that I loved [see Prologue; LTT is clearly talking about killing his loved ones]. If I kill him, [Taim] it will be well, though. I can make it up, if I kill him finally. [this only makes sense if Ishamael/ Moridin is Taim] No, nothing can make up [for killing all that I loved], but I must kill him anyway. Kill them all. [All the Dreadlords] I must. I must.

 

No! Rand screamed inside his head. You’re dead, Lews Therin. I am alive, burn you, and you are dead! You are dead!

 

Abruptly he realized he was leaning on the table, holding himself up with sagging knees. And muttering, “You are dead! I am alive, and you are dead!” [ironically, Rand doesn't realise how right he is!] But he had not seized saidin. And neither had Lews Therin. Shivering, he looked at Taim and was surprised to see concern on the man’s face.

 

There are more hints from LTT (and thus RJ), but this is the best one.

 

 

[Majsju]

Sorry mate, but it has been made very clear that Moridin that not pose as Taim.

[Mik]

Sorry mate, but it has been made very clear that Moridin that not pose as Taim.

*groan*

Who did where? Apparantly not good enough, if you really read that quote I posted.

 

Listen Maj. I'm not going to try and convince you. I've sorta given up on that.

Do with the above what you will, ok?

 

I'm sure you've got another good explanation for what I posted?

[Majsju]

That Moridin is not Taim has been proven in several threads here, take a few minutes and Search.

 

Why LTT goes off on a rant when Taim is around...Hmm, could it have something to do with what happened last time LTT worked together with male channelers? If you break it down, LTTs decision to use only male channelers to seal the Bore is what caused Saidin to be tainted, which resulted in LTT killing his family. And now, Rand is about to do it all over again.

 

Makes a lot more sense than LTT being able to "smell" Ishy inside Taims body, yes? Especially since the one time we see LTT talk about Moridin, he does not show any knowledge of Moridin being Ishy recycled. On the contrary.

[Luckers]

Don't bother Maj. Mik has things that he 'likes to think' are the case. His own words. He seems to feel his injections are in someway significant, when all they are are what i said--injections. Words he's added with no objective basis--usually blocked in logic like 'see, in the next sentence he mentions Taim, therefore he must be Moridin'.

 

What he perhaps misses is that we don't hear the voice in his head.

[Majsju]

I know, but if I do not bother, I might have enough free time on my hands to actually do real work, and that we can not have ;D

[Mik]

Instead of focussing on my little self, why not explain the quote better..?

 

Now please...who is LTT talking about here? He is clearly talking about Ishamael.

And who is standing right in front of Rand? Rand is standing right in front of Taim.

LTT wants to kill Taim, because LTT realises Taim and a transmigrated Ishamael are one and the same.

 

Oh, Light, I killed them all. All that I loved [see Prologue; LTT is clearly talking about killing his loved ones]. If I kill him, [Taim] it will be well, though. I can make it up, if I kill him finally. [this only makes sense if Ishamael/ Moridin is Taim] No, nothing can make up [for killing all that I loved], but I must kill him anyway. Kill them all. [All the Dreadlords] I must. I must.

 

You can ridicule me all you want. I don't care, really.

Because you know. AMoL is going to be finished one day...  ;D

 

Have a good day now, kind sirs!

Mik

 

[Majsju]

So LTT would "realise" that Taim was just a recycled Ishamael in disguise, with Taim having done nothing suspicious other than just stand there?

But later completely fail to make the connection Ishamael -> Moridin, despite having seen Moridin doing something that proved he was not just a DF, but a high ranking forsaken?

 

And if LTTs rants are so much worth as proof of anything, how come he the first time Rand/LTT meets Taim starts ranting about Sammael and Demandred? With extra emphasis on how Demandred hated him? There is no need to make any out-of-the-blue assumptions about who he means here, he specifically names these two gentlemen.

 

Must be quite a crowd hanging out in Taims body...