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[Builder]

Oh damn! Where can I find this book?! No book shop seems to have it!

 

It's weird that I haven't noticed SH until book 10 or something. He was never directly mentioned before then was he?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Shaidar Haran was introduced in the prologue to Lord of Chaos, which is book 6.

 

As for buying the Guide, try the interweb:

 

http://www.amazon.com/World-Robert-Jordans-Wheel-Time/dp/0312869363/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240076176&sr=1-1

 

Thats the paperback, so the page numbers might be different, but the info I posted is in the section on Ishamael.

[Majsju]

Moridin, way back when he was Elan Morin Tedronai, openly called for, quote "the destruction of everything".  He wrote a book called "Reality and the Absence of Meaning".  Seriously, guys, do you need clearer clues?  The Dark One plans on destroying existence as we know it by killing time itself.  Moridin loves the idea, because he's a nihilist, which is why he always rises to the top, even when he screws up.  Look at what happened to the other Forsaken that got killed/captured:

 

 

 

Read in context, that is not what Ishamael meant with "the destruction of everything". He is talking about society, civilisation, not the world.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Uh, no, the distinction is not only clearly drawn in the text, but in the context of his philosophy, its pretty clear.

 

To quote:

 

He called for the complete destruction of the old order - indeed, the complete destruction of everything.

 

He called for the complete destruction of the old order (society and civilization), but just so you don't misunderstand, let me make this clear, he called for the complete destruction of everything.

 

If it is merely what you say, Maj, (the destruction of society and civilization), then the second part of that sentence is not only superfluous but misleading.  I say it says exactly what it says.

 

Which matches nicely with his philosophy:  Analysis of Percieved Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, Disassembly of Reason ... he's not talking about social reconstruction there, he's talking about reality itself.

 

And it matches what he threatens to do in the current stories ... to kill Time itself.  Time is what gives reality meaning (or, as he would say, the perception of meaning), it keeps events separate and establishes context.  A world without Time is a world of pure chaos; it is, for all intents and purposes, the end of existence.

[Builder]

That's when the Light shit brix.

 

But why would a philosopher have those kinds of thoughts before he went over to the Shadow? Was he butthurt or something, because it seems that many of the Forsaken came to the Shadow because of some emotion they were struggling with.

[Majsju]

He called for the complete destruction of the old order (society and civilization), but just so you don't misunderstand, let me make this clear, he called for the complete destruction of everything.

 

If it is merely what you say, Maj, (the destruction of society and civilization), then the second part of that sentence is not only superfluous but misleading.  I say it says exactly what it says.

 

You are wrong.

The 'old order' refers to society at the advanced level. Governance and all that jazz.

Civilisation however, that is something that happens whenever more than two people stay at the same place. It is our most deeply rooted perception of community.

 

If the DO wins, all this is tossed out the window. It would be the end of free will, mankind would be reduced to a beast among others.

 

And it matches what he threatens to do in the current stories ... to kill Time itself.  Time is what gives reality meaning (or, as he would say, the perception of meaning), it keeps events separate and establishes context.  A world without Time is a world of pure chaos; it is, for all intents and purposes, the end of existence.

 

Uhm, no. The DO does not intend to "kill" time. He intends to break the Wheel, and cause a shift from cyclic to linear time. What the books (and RJ in interviews) have made very clear, is that doing so is the only way to allow for actual change. As long as the Wheel is spinning, it will always strive to keep the DO locked up. If it breaks however, the DO gets free reign to play with the world however he wants.

 

And it makes absolutely no sense that the DO would spend a couple of eternities trying to reach a world, only to destroy it as soon as he finally gets to put his paws on it. That is something that lives on from fairytales how the Big Bad is just evil and stupid.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK, well, we disagree.

 

This argument has been had elsewhere, and I interpret what you've cited far differently.  Hopefully we'll find out by the end.

[Builder]

This is a noob question, but where can I find the RJ interviews?

 

Also, would breaking the Wheel damage it in a way so that the Dragon can't be reborn again? Because of he couldn't then that would be a major blow against the Light.

[Gentled Ben]

He called for the complete destruction of the old order (society and civilization), but just so you don't misunderstand, let me make this clear, he called for the complete destruction of everything.

 

If it is merely what you say, Maj, (the destruction of society and civilization), then the second part of that sentence is not only superfluous but misleading.  I say it says exactly what it says.

 

You are wrong.

The 'old order' refers to society at the advanced level. Governance and all that jazz.

Civilisation however, that is something that happens whenever more than two people stay at the same place. It is our most deeply rooted perception of community.

 

If the DO wins, all this is tossed out the window. It would be the end of free will, mankind would be reduced to a beast among others.

 

And it matches what he threatens to do in the current stories ... to kill Time itself.  Time is what gives reality meaning (or, as he would say, the perception of meaning), it keeps events separate and establishes context.  A world without Time is a world of pure chaos; it is, for all intents and purposes, the end of existence.

 

Uhm, no. The DO does not intend to "kill" time. He intends to break the Wheel, and cause a shift from cyclic to linear time. What the books (and RJ in interviews) have made very clear, is that doing so is the only way to allow for actual change. As long as the Wheel is spinning, it will always strive to keep the DO locked up. If it breaks however, the DO gets free reign to play with the world however he wants.

 

And it makes absolutely no sense that the DO would spend a couple of eternities trying to reach a world, only to destroy it as soon as he finally gets to put his paws on it. That is something that lives on from fairytales how the Big Bad is just evil and stupid.

I used to think that too, Maj, but it says in the Guide that the Wheel is time. If that is true, then breaking the Wheel will destroy time, like RAW said, rather than destroy cyclical time. Replacing cyclical time with linear time makes sense to me, but the text seems to conflict with that, as it does not describe time as something wrapped around the Wheel, like a tire on a rim, but rather it describes time as the Wheel itself.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Cyclical time I suppose is how things are rewoven as the "spoke" of the Wheel comes about again.  it's how LTT is Rand is whoever the Wheel spins the Dragon out as later on.  It's...well, it's a wheel.

 

If it were simply a matter of smoothing the wheel out into a linear fashion, then the Dark One would have no fear of the "wheel" being a cycle and he could affect the world as time played out (instead of time being spun around and around).  Unfortunately if the DO breaks the wheel it doesn't automatically turn linear.

 

A broken wheel provides an opportunity.  When that part of the wheel comes about the DO has an opportunity to reach outside of the cycle and affect things or form "branches" I suppose which would ultimately destroy the pattern of the cycle of the wheel of time.  I think "the destruction of everything" accurately describes what that would look like.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Just to throw wood on the fire ...

 

I reread the first part of the Eye of the World last night and remembered where I saw the idea that the Dark One planned to kill time itself for the first time.

 

"Ten years!  You pitiful fool!  This war has not lasted ten years, but since the beginning of time.  You and I have fought a thousand battles with the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the Shadow is triumphant!"

 

Ishamael to Lews Therin Telamon, prologue, tEotW.

 

Sure sound to me like he's worried about time itself, not a particular society or civilization in general.  And Ishy had absolutely no reason to lie to Lews Therin there ...

 

I honestly don't make this stuff up.  ;)  Time's very nature is the opposite of the Dark One's nature; it is the order that opposes his Chaos.  A world with time can never be a world in his image.

[Charlz Guybon]

Moridin, way back when he was Elan Morin Tedronai, openly called for, quote "the destruction of everything".  He wrote a book called "Reality and the Absence of Meaning".  Seriously, guys, do you need clearer clues?  The Dark One plans on destroying existence as we know it by killing time itself.  Moridin loves the idea, because he's a nihilist, which is why he always rises to the top, even when he screws up.  Look at what happened to the other Forsaken that got killed/captured:

 

Aginor - turned into a dumpy old man, roughed up by Shaidar Haran

Balthamel - made into a woman, roughed up by Shaidar Haran

Lanfear - put in a body she doesn't care for, given a name that is a warning, and mindtrapped

Moghedien - repeatedly raped by Shaidar Haran, and mindtrapped

 

 

But Ishy?  Yay, you get a cool new body and a promotion!  Yeah, I know Demandred did a good job while you were gone, but he was never in on the whole plan now, was he? Mwahahahahahaha

Yup. Ishamael seems to me the only one who truly understands the Dark Lord and accepts it. He’s a nihilist who realizes that the Dark One will destroy the world and he approves. I think that Ishamael believes if the pattern is destroyed his soul will be able to step outside of it and ascend into a new exalted phase of existence. That’s why the Dark One’s made him Nae’blis. If the other forsaken have to much contact with the Dark One they might realize what’s going to happen and turn against him. They’re in it for them and the Dark Utopia they expect to rule, not for the total destruction of everything.

[Builder]

Cleverly said both of you RAW and Charlz, but please - describe chaos. If time would be destroyed would that mean time travel would be possible?

 

Also, would turning the Dragon over to the Shadow mean definite victory over the Light, or is it required something else?

 

I can understand that the DO wants to win forever. He doesn't want to fight anymore, and I can understand that and that's why he wants to turn the one thing that opposes him, which is the Dragon reborn.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If time would be destroyed would that mean time travel would be possible?

 

No.  You can't travel through something that does not exist.  If time is destroyed, anything that we would recognize as existence would no longer exist.

 

Also, would turning the Dragon over to the Shadow mean definite victory over the Light, or is it required something else?

 

Since RJ seems to have stated here (http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=22) that the Light has no chance without that Dragon, then yes, the Dragon turning would constitute a final victory for the Shadow.  There is apparently something that only the Dragon can do to prevent the Shadow's total victory.

[Sab]

Ishy was also rewarded becuase when the others were in their sleep he was free at times to make sure society never grew too powerful.

[Builder]

Interesting. I'll read that post RJ made another day. It's getting a little bit late, and I have school tomorrow  :-\

 

However, Rand didn't turn to the Shadow and he doesn't seem to be willing to do so in the future. What chances does the Shadow then have? Would it mean that this time the DO won't win for sure? I mean, if Rand has this little extra that is needed for the Light to win then we can be certain that the series will end good  :D

[Sab]

Well there is never the guarantee he would win the last battle.  I'm mean yeah we know he will greatly doubt RJ would have him lose.  But Rand could go there completely screw everything up.

[CUBAREY]

Interesting. I'll read that post RJ made another day. It's getting a little bit late, and I have school tomorrow  :-\

 

However, Rand didn't turn to the Shadow and he doesn't seem to be willing to do so in the future. What chances does the Shadow then have? Would it mean that this time the DO won't win for sure? I mean, if Rand has this little extra that is needed for the Light to win then we can be certain that the series will end good  :D

 

Rnad's presence is neccesary but of itself not sufficent for the light to win.

[Jethro]

What do you guys think about the idea of evil being as necessary as good in a series like this?

[Lord Nik]

If time would be destroyed would that mean time travel would be possible?

 

This is how I think of that idea.

 

Say time is a car that can only drive forward.

Dark one breaks free and kills time (the car)

 

Why would the car be able to go in any direction now let alone backwards or speeding up into the future.

 

Its broken (killed)

[RobertAlexWillis]

What do you guys think about the idea of evil being as necessary as good in a series like this?

 

Since any decent story requires some source of conflict, I would say that, yes, evil is a necessary ingredient in a series like this.

[Builder]

So Rand will most probably win but evil will survive for sure. The DO can't be killed anyways so that's kinda confirmed from the start.

[Jethro]

What do you guys think about the idea of evil being as necessary as good in a series like this?

 

Since any decent story requires some source of conflict, I would say that, yes, evil is a necessary ingredient in a series like this.

 

Okay minus the sarcasm RAW and actually answering the question I really meant, do you think in a world such as Wheel of Time. where existence is guided by a mechanism that strives for balance, that evil is necessary?

[Builder]

Would it strive for order too? I assume that if it strives for balance that it would want order too.

[water_seeker]

According to my boy C.S. Lewis:

 

Goodness is, so to speak, itself:  badness is only spoiled goodness.  And there must be something good first before it can be spoiled.

Mere Christianity; Book 2, Chp 2

 

I think this relevant considering his topic in this section is dualism...and as far as I can tell, that is really what your question boils down to..."is this dualistic nature necessary?"

 

If Lewis were arguing the point I believe he would say that the DO (the evil) is essentially pursuing something "good" in a bad way...He wants freedom (from the bore), he is powerful so he's not really after that...he wants to be worshipped which basically means he wants ppl to "love" him.  Freedom and love in themselves are good things, but he is going after them in a bad way.

 

Really, the only thing that is necessary in any world is good, but for the story RAW is 100% correct.