The Band of the Red Hand in TGS

[Charlz Guybon]

 

And when I say he doesn't like Elyne it isn't a knock on his character, it's a knock on her's.  She looks down (literally)on him and, what he does, and how he does it.  She thinks, despite him being Ta'veren, that he is a peasant who thinks to much of himself.  That is view on all non-nobles, it was how she was brought up, the only expections are Nyn, Egwene, and Rand.  Nyn and Egwene because they are AS and Rand because he is hot.

 

The wonder girls thought Mat was leading the Band because Rand told the Band Mat was in charge, when he first arrived at Salidar they thought he was just a soldier, not even an officer.  Even Egwene thought this.

 

On the journey to Salidar she tried belittling him and bullying him and that didn't work.  She was afronted because he didn't behave as a commoner to a noble should, and this was an Andoran to his Queen at that.

 

Then she started inspecting his troops and telling him what to do about what she saw, that really made Mat mad because she was saying he didn't know how to lead an army, and as much as he hates doing it, he keeps tight disapline and takes good care of his men so she may as well as slapped him in the face.

 

She lloked at the time as a way to train him "to be useful to Rand" because she only saw a peasant farmer, and where she comes from all generals have to be of noble birth.

 

She continued on like this until Bridgit and Avi set her down a peg.

Elayne looks down on Mat not because he's a peasant because she sees him as womanizing gambler. Elayne is marked contrast to the other nobles of the books, especially of Tear and Cairhein. She and her mother do not look down on the lower classes, to such an extent that I find it rather unrealistic, but that seems to be the general Andoran political culture.

 

As for all generals having to be of noble birth, that's never said. Rand rose to become Captain-General in one of the alternate-portal worlds. Aside from Bryne I don't recall any of the Andoran officers, including my namesake having a noble house. Anyone who rises that high will simply be ennobled by the sovereign, like Itarulade was in Arad Doman.

 

Egwene's a moron (or Jordan made a mistake),  she should have know better, she was in the room once when Mat made a report of his campaign to Rand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

As the recipient of an advanced degree in History, a former professional agricultural historian, and simply as a resident of an agricultural state along the Missisippi River, I'd like to point out that food has ALWAYS traveled by river whenever and wherever there is one.

 

Not when a any kind coastal route was available, in a pre-steam engine society.  Which you should know, as a recipient of all the above.

 

Seriously, cloglord ... did you just try to intimidate ME into agreement with advanced degrees?  ::)

 

The simple fact of the matter is that with the world's food surplus in Tear, (for the time being,) moving through Illian, and potentially points beyond, it will be easier for Mat to supply the band the closer it gets to Illian, not the closer it gets to Andor.

 

LOL ... Caemlyn is as good a supply point as Illian.  And also in the direction they are already moving.  And also with someone he promised to help onto the throne.  And, co-incidentally, closer to where the Horn actually is.

 

If you figure that there were 3 ships docked, and that they stayed docked for an average of 2 days we are looking at a dozen ships that probably docked in Whitebridge between Doman's arrival and Moraine's.  Those are of course my estimates, but they don't even take into account the ships that potentially didn't stop at all.

 

Even assuming your numbers are right, that is no reason to think that Whitebridge is going to be able to supply an army of 30,000 men plus their horses for any extended period.  Like anything over a week.

 

At this point in the story Randland has seen a sudden and freakish onset of winter that is only now begining to relent.  Sounds like there is likely to be some increased river traffic pretty soon...

 

Actually, it sounds like Rand is taking every scrap of extra food in Tear and Illian, loading it on the Sea Folk ships, and sailing it around the coast.  Guys, this is actually already in the story; I swear I'm not making it up.

 

There is zero reason to think that the Arinelle is, has been, or would be used as a major trade route for bulk trading.  There are no major cities on its banks north of Illian until you actually get to Maradon.  This is why the only trading we've seen on this route has been in small, highly portable, highly valuable items.  Those items justify the expense of trading over long distances, with only relatively small cargoes.  Again, this is not only my assessment, it is what we've actually seen in the story. 

 

Bulk items (most especially foods) are NOT traded the same way.  Saldaea gets its food from Saldaean farmgirls (once they're done boinking), not from Illian.

 

Not exactly, Illian is a major trade center and it supplies trade for an entire nation.  Whitebridge is a trade hub or a trade crossroads, call it what you wish, but it could easily supply a number of people.  The band does not make up any were near the population of a nation

 

Are you really contending that Whitebridge has the supply capacity of Illian?

 

-sigh-

 

it does if it need supplies of Iron or coal or aluminum.  Not every nation produces everything it needs.  I bet there would be a lot of starving Kuwaiti's if it weren't for their oil.

 

You are applying a modern global trade structure to a world which is demonstrably different.  As someone who is the recipient of an advanced degree in History, you should know better.

 

if only Mat knew and was traveling with someone who owns a lot of riverboats and who operates them on that river.....Oh wait he does.....

 

LOL ... Who are you talking about?  Bayle Domon doesn't have jack squat on that river any more.  Did you miss ... oh I don't know ... the entire second half of this story?  You know, everything from Tanchico on?

 

When Rand sent the Band to Salidar Mat was annoyed because the whole thing upset their plans for the war with Illian.

 

Which has nothing to do with the present situation, since Rand's plan to take Illian is long since accomplished.

 

Mat cares nothing about politics, he has said it often enough and proven it.  Justice yes, but he doesn't care about nobles and who governs what.

 

You're underestimating Mat's sophistication.  He complains a lot, but his actions demonstrate both a different understanding and sense of responsibility.

 

Whether Mat likes Elayne or not is irrelevant, even to him.  Mat has demonstrated over and over that he does what he thinks is right, not what he "wants" to.  And he also keeps his promises.  Thats a big deal to him.

[cloglord]

Quote

As the recipient of an advanced degree in History, a former professional agricultural historian, and simply as a resident of an agricultural state along the Missisippi River, I'd like to point out that food has ALWAYS traveled by river whenever and wherever there is one.

 

Not when a any kind coastal route was available, in a pre-steam engine society.  Which you should know, as a recipient of all the above.

 

Seriously, cloglord ... did you just try to intimidate ME into agreement with advanced degrees?  Roll Eyes

 

Wrong.  Historically the most fertile farm ground has always been in the river bottoms of major rivers.  This is due to the regular depositing of fertile silt during regular flooding.  In the absence of advanced transportation methods, rivers are the PRIMARY methods of moving food.

 

I wasn't trying to indimidate anyone. I pointed out that I knew what I was talking about as both a historian and a student of agriculture.  These are things that either sub-group knows about, and as I pointed out MOST residents of my state as a simple matter of course.  If you feel inimidated that's your own deal.

 

LOL ... Caemlyn is as good a supply point as Illian.  And also in the direction they are already moving.  And also with someone he promised to help onto the throne.  And, co-incidentally, closer to where the Horn actually is.

 

Uhm, no its not.  Elayne's POV's tell us that Andor is also suffering its own set of imminent food shortfalls.  That is not to mention the fact that Camelyn has been undersiege, and the surrounding countryside has been supporting 100,000 borderlanders, all of Camelyn, all of the rebel armies, and now the newly arrived nobles that brought their armies with them.  Before that Andor was supplying food to the legion of the dragon and who knows how many Aiel.  How long to you think that the food will hold out? 

 

The only country in the totality of randland that has a surplus is Tear, and that food has just been ordered to be dispersed.  From Tear there are three good ways to disperse that food.  Up river to Aringail, Carhein, and points North.  To Illian and up through Altara, Ghealdean, Murandy, and western Andor.  And along the coast to Tarabon, Almoth Plain, Arad Doman.  In two of those cases that food will be going through or by Illian, and in the third, it gets no closer to the band than it would in Illian.

 

Are you really contending that Whitebridge has the supply capacity of Illian?

 

Nope, no more than you are contending that the band is similar in population to the popoluation of Illian.  My point is that Whitebrigde doesn't have to be the size of a major trade center like Illian to be able to supply an army.

 

Even assuming your numbers are right, that is no reason to think that Whitebridge is going to be able to supply an army of 30,000 men plus their horses for any extended period.  Like anything over a week.

 

When did the band become 30K?  Last I counted they were closer to 20K, I suppose the number of mouths grows when it is convienient for your argument right?

 

Who said that Whitebridge would be supplying them?  I never once suggested that they would stay camped out at whitebridge, in fact I seem to recall that I suggested that they would head to Illian....

 

There is zero reason to think that the Arinelle is, has been, or would be used as a major trade route for bulk trading.  There are no major cities on its banks north of Illian until you actually get to Maradon.  This is why the only trading we've seen on this route has been in small, highly portable, highly valuable items.  Those items justify the expense of trading over long distances, with only relatively small cargoes.  Again, this is not only my assessment, it is what we've actually seen in the story.

 

"Illian is a powerful nation on the Sea of Storms bordering the weaker nations of Altara and Murandy.  Wealthy from sea-, land, and river trade, Illian protected the weaker Altara,..."  BWB Pg 278

 

That seems like more than zero reason to me.

 

Just because there aren't major cities doesn't mean that large amounts of trade don't flow up and down its banks.  There are a number of major crossroads like the one at white bridge, or the one that Mat & Co. are currently near, that provide outlets to Ghealdean, Altara, and Murandy.

 

Bulk items (most especially foods) are NOT traded the same way.  Saldaea gets its food from Saldaean farmgirls (once they're done boinking), not from Illian.

 

Wrong again.  The use of barges and draft power has been around since at least Roman times specifically to transport bulk items along rivers.  I'm not saying that Saldea gets it food from Illian, simply there is no indication in the books that it does.  However, it is certainly the case that large amounts of goods trade up and down that river, and that there is nothing inherent in the "river" system that biases it against bulk shipments.  In fact I think it does quite the opposite.  A large barge can be loaded with more weight than a comparably sized seagoing ship, and requires a smaller crew to pilot it. 

 

You are applying a modern global trade structure to a world which is demonstrably different.  As someone who is the recipient of an advanced degree in History, you should know better.

 

No, even pre-industrial revolution, commodities were traded from parts of the world were they were abundant to parts of the world were they were not.  Spice trade from the far east, chocolate from south america, ivory from africa, sugar from the carribean, Tobacco and cotton from the american colonies. The routes by which supplies of those commodities arrive were supply routes, just as the routes that goods arrive in Saldea would be supply routes.

 

LOL ... Who are you talking about?  Bayle Domon doesn't have jack squat on that river any more.  Did you miss ... oh I don't know ... the entire second half of this story?  You know, everything from Tanchico on?

 

Oh, I suppose that Bayle was sailing with his whole fleet when he was interecepted by the Seanchan?  Or were you suggesting that he just stopped owning his ships just because he wasn't around to personally oversee them all? Those ships still exist, by the laws of Illian he owns them, and the majority of them, since they are riverboats, are probably trading on the very river the Mat and Co. are so very, very close to at the present moment.

 

That is not to mention the fishing fleet owned by the husband of Setalle Anan.  Or do you think that the Band is against eating fish....

 

Mat has the connections and the cash to provide food and transportation of that food up the river from Illian, he doesn't have similar means of supplying them anywhere else.

[cloglord]

Another point that just occurred to me. 

 

Tear has been supplying the food for all of Carhien, upriver, using barges, for the last 20 years.  Doesn't sound to far fetched to me.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

When did the band become 30K?  Last I counted they were closer to 20K, I suppose the number of mouths grows when it is convienient for your argument right?

 

 

If both pieces of the Band meet up they'll be 31,000 men, minus whatever losses were taken against the Seanchan offset by whatever recruiting Estean has done.

[cloglord]

That's not what Wikipedia says, I'm curious as to where you and raw get the 30K number.  I'm not going to say that I'm not wrong on this, I'd just like more than a thrown out number.

[Charlz Guybon]

That's not what Wikipedia says, I'm curious as to where you and raw get the 30K number.  I'm not going to say that I'm not wrong on this, I'd just like more than a thrown out number.

 

8,500 + 19,500 is 28,000 men. Add the Banner of Masons and you have 31,000 men. That's of course assuming that a Banner of Masons is equal in number to a Banner of Infantry, if it's only equal to a Banner of Horse, than the total will only be 29,500.

In Altara, The Band is made up of:

3 banners of cavalry

4,000 mounted crossbowmen

8,500 total

 

In Murandy, The Band is made up of:

3 banners of Cavalry

5 banners of infantry

1 banner of masons*

19,500 total

 

    * masons excluded from total as they are not combat oriented. Their purpose is to build bridges, fortifications, etc.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Wrong.  Historically the most fertile farm ground has always been in the river bottoms of major rivers.  This is due to the regular depositing of fertile silt during regular flooding.  In the absence of advanced transportation methods, rivers are the PRIMARY methods of moving food.

 

Please name one major upriver trade route from pre-steam engine history, which moved large amounts of food, which matches or exceeds the length that you're proposing.  Just one.  Illian to Maradon < 3000 miles.  Oh, and over 1000 of that has to be through completely uninhabited land.

 

Elayne's POV's tell us that Andor is also suffering its own set of imminent food shortfalls.

 

Because of a siege which is now broken, and the Mat never knew about, so it won't affect his decision in either case.  Also, Illian is importing food too.  If Mat wants a food supplier, he'll have to go all the way to Tear.

 

Mat knows that Elayne can use gateways to get supplies.  If the Band can hook up with Elayne, they can get whatever they need.

 

When did the band become 30K?  Last I counted they were closer to 20K, I suppose the number of mouths grows when it is convienient for your argument right?

 

I'd take a shot there, but Charlz covered it for me.  Isn't it nice when you condescendingly accuse me of inflating numbers to match my argument, and then are wrong?  ;D  Reading the books in detail helps.

 

Who said that Whitebridge would be supplying them?  I never once suggested that they would stay camped out at whitebridge, in fact I seem to recall that I suggested that they would head to Illian....

 

Other people were, and I was responding to them.  Read the whole thread.

 

Illian is a powerful nation on the Sea of Storms bordering the weaker nations of Altara and Murandy.  Wealthy from sea-, land, and river trade, Illian protected the weaker Altara,..."  BWB Pg 278

 

That seems like more than zero reason to me.

 

It doesn't say where the river trade is from, or that it takes the form of large amounts of food.  I've never denied that there is trade all along the Arinelle.  Its just not the type of trade that will help supply the Band.

 

That statement says nothing about the relative proportions or type of trade through each medium.  Of course, if you interpret it without context, then you can make it say whatever you want.  If you interpret it with the context that I cited, from the books, then it shows the model that I have described.  Trade in small, valuable items.  Not bulk food trade.

 

Wrong again.  The use of barges and draft power has been around since at least Roman times specifically to transport bulk items along rivers.

 

Not over that kind of distance, or through the kind of uninhabited stretches between Maradon and Illian.

 

You're importing examples from the real world without context.  There is no single river system in the entire Roman world that is as long, much less has the uninhabited stretches, to match the situation we're describing.  The Roman Empire was built around the MEDITERRANEAN SEA for a reason.

 

Spice trade from the far east, chocolate from south america, ivory from africa, sugar from the carribean, Tobacco and cotton from the american colonies.

 

Yes.  Over sea routes. Not 3000 miles up any river.  The interiors of South America and Africa were not exploited on any large scale until AFTER the steam engine.

 

And notice that food staples are notably absent from that list.  Spices, chocolate, and sugar were rare commodities in Europe (say, like Saldaean Ice Peppers).  Ivory was valuable in relatively small amounts (like the gemstones that were also a part of this trade in the real world, and are mentioned in the books).  Europe never imported any significant portion of its food staples from abroad until the aftermath of WWII.

 

In short, you've just made all my points.

 

Oh, I suppose that Bayle was sailing with his whole fleet when he was interecepted by the Seanchan?  Or were you suggesting that he just stopped owning his ships just because he wasn't around to personally oversee them all? Those ships still exist, by the laws of Illian he owns them, and the majority of them, since they are riverboats, are probably trading on the very river the Mat and Co. are so very, very close to at the present moment.

 

Bayle Domon does not have a fleet of riverboats sitting around waiting for him in Illian.  He RAN from Illian with just the Spray heading to Toman Head.  He rebuilt his trade in Tanchico, and then lost it ALL when the Seanchan made him property.  

 

I'm not sure where you got the idea that he has this fleet waiting for him.  But cite it, if you can.

 

That is not to mention the fishing fleet owned by the husband of Setalle Anan.  Or do you think that the Band is against eating fish....

 

LOL ... theres a reason that fishing boats aren't used as shipping vessels.

 

Mat has the connections and the cash to provide food and transportation of that food up the river from Illian, he doesn't have similar means of supplying them anywhere else.

 

Because the gateways that Elayne can make are SOOOO much slower and more expensive than shipping supplies thousands of miles against the current.   ::)  Mat knows the Band can get supplies wherever Elayne (and all the channelers with her) is.

 

Tear has been supplying the food for all of Carhien, upriver, using barges, for the last 20 years.  Doesn't sound to far fetched to me.

 

Upriver AND overland, on a much more populated river, over a distance less than half of that from Illian to Maradon, at exorbitant prices, to a nation that is starving because of civil war that followed the brunt of the Aiel invasion.

 

Context matters, cloglord.  The situation between Illian and Saldaea is completely different.

 

Look ... this conversation has all the earmarks of all our previous ones.  So I'm stopping it here.  I think you're just plain dead wrong.  You disagree.  Fair enough.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

Uhm, no its not.  Elayne's POV's tell us that Andor is also suffering its own set of imminent food shortfalls.  That is not to mention the fact that Camelyn has been undersiege, and the surrounding countryside has been supporting 100,000 borderlanders, all of Camelyn, all of the rebel armies, and now the newly arrived nobles that brought their armies with them.  Before that Andor was supplying food to the legion of the dragon and who knows how many Aiel.  How long to you think that the food will hold out? 

 

Elayne was feeding over 600,000 people with her gateways to just the parts of Andor her supporters controlled at that time. She's in control of nearly the whole country now, another 100,000 soldiers (the other Andor nobles and the Band) shouldn't be a problem.

 

EDIT: 500th Post! :)

[cloglord]

Elayne was feeding over 600,000 people with her gateways to just the parts of Andor her supporters controlled at that time. She's in control of nearly the whole country now, another 100,000 soldiers (the other Andor nobles and the Band) shouldn't be a problem.

 

And when was the last harvest?

 

Please name one major upriver trade route from pre-steam engine history, which moved large amounts of food, which matches or exceeds the length that you're proposing.  Just one.  Illian to Maradon < 3000 miles.  Oh, and over 1000 of that has to be through completely uninhabited land.

 

Easy, the Volga river in Russia, (By the way, its the longest river in Europe.)  It transported wheat from the fertile river basins all throughout Russia.  Interestingly enough it was done using barges and serf labor to provide the draft power to pull them up river.  This went on for about 3 centuries.

 

Just to clarify, I never claimed that food was the major trade good between Illian and Maradon.  I made the argument that the boats to maradon did not arrive empty.  Whether or not food is a major trade item to Maradon is kind of a moot point however, since the Mat and the band are not in Maradon, they are roughly halfway between white bridge and Illian.

 

Because of a siege which is now broken, and the Mat never knew about, so it won't affect his decision in either case.  Also, Illian is importing food too.  If Mat wants a food supplier, he'll have to go all the way to Tear.

 

"The [illian] port houses a large fishing fleet, which provides enough seafood to feed Illian and still export to neighboring nations." TBWB 279

 

I'd take a shot there, but Charlz covered it for me.  Isn't it nice when you condescendingly accuse me of inflating numbers to match my argument, and then are wrong?  Grin  Reading the books in detail helps.

 

I misread my research, I was wrong, and I'm sorry.  Thanks Charlz for correctly citing it for me.  In any case 30K is not any where near the size of most of the armies that exist in randland ATM, and we don't seem to have the same need to discuss how 100K borderlanders have hung out in the same uninhabited woods since WH without the help of any ruler or river.

 

Other people were, and I was responding to them.  Read the whole thread.

 

You even cited my numbers in your response which makes it a response, (at least in part,) to me in my book.  I have read the whole thread, I've been here for most of it.

 

It doesn't say where the river trade is from, or that it takes the form of large amounts of food.  I've never denied that there is trade all along the Arinelle.  Its just not the type of trade that will help supply the Band.

 

It certainly more than implies that the river trade comes from the Manetherendrelle, as that is the only river that flows through the city of Illian.  If you take that into my earlier quote from this post about Illian as an exporter of seafood, I doubt that Illian is exporting seafood to other coastal countries.  I guess then that it would be almost implicit that Illian does in fact ship food upriver....

 

You're importing examples from the real world without context.  There is no single river system in the entire Roman world that is as long, much less has the uninhabited stretches, to match the situation we're describing.  The Roman Empire was built around the MEDITERRANEAN SEA for a reason.

 

Actually the instance that I was thinking of was horses being used to tow barges in Britain during the Roman's time there. Funny, I believe that the Britain was surrounded by the SEA even during Roman times, and yet they still used barges on RIVERS to move commodities.  Weird.

 

Yes.  Over sea routes. Not 3000 miles up any river.  The interiors of South America and Africa were not exploited on any large scale until AFTER the steam engine.

 

Again wrong.  There are indications that the Nile (BTW the Longest river i n the world,) was used for long range trade as early as 20,000 BC as evidenced by examples of early Egyptian multiplication found near Lake Edward in the  Democratic Republic of the Congo.

 

And notice that food staples are notably absent from that list.  Spices, chocolate, and sugar were rare commodities in Europe (say, like Saldaean Ice Peppers).  Ivory was valuable in relatively small amounts (like the gemstones that were also a part of this trade in the real world, and are mentioned in the books).

 

You seem to be laboring under two misconceptions.  One, you seem to think that I am defending the idea that food is one of Saldea's major imports.  I am not defending that idea.  It could be that food is one of Saldea's major imports, but we simply don't know.  In the specific case of Saldea we do know that the gemstones were products of Saldea and the borderlands, and as such were unlikely to be the cargo that was brought up river from Illian to be traded.

 

The second misconception being that all that the Band will need is food.  A supply route will be bringing things like horse shoes and leather and metal goods as well. 

Europe never imported any significant portion of its food staples from abroad until the aftermath of WWII.

 

In short, you've just made all my points.

 

I'd cite the Amsterdam grain trade and Amsterdam's relative escape from the great European famine of the 1590's but I get the impression you are more interested in feeling that you are right than you are to listening to the facts of the matter.

 

Bayle Domon does not have a fleet of riverboats sitting around waiting for him in Illian.  He RAN from Illian with just the Spray heading to Toman Head.  He rebuilt his trade in Tanchico, and then lost it ALL when the Seanchan made him property. 

 

I'm not sure where you got the idea that he has this fleet waiting for him.  But cite it, if you can.

 

TSR CH. 39 Doman tells the wondergirls that he has 12 good coasting ships and 4 deepwater ships.

 

Unless you think that Doman's ships were all sitting in the dock in Tanchio when the Seanchan showed up it seems a little far fetched to think that the Seanchan managed to confiscate them all. 

 

Now its your turn to cite where is says that he lost them, "ALL."

 

LOL ... theres a reason that fishing boats aren't used as shipping vessels.

 

....Yes because they are used for sailing and catching food.  I wonder what we've been arguing about all this time.  Oh yeah, I remember, it's how Mat is going to FEED the band.  I wonder if maybe he could feed them fish?  ::)

 

Upriver AND overland, on a much more populated river, over a distance less than half of that from Illian to Maradon, at exorbitant prices, to a nation that is starving because of civil war that followed the brunt of the Aiel invasion.

 

Along what road?  I don't see a road between Tear and Carhein on my map.  I see a road that goes to Far Madding to Camelyn, then west to Aringill and then on to Carhein, but I don't see any road directly between the two nations.  I also seem to recall that Tear has no towns bigger than a village at all beyond Tear and Godan, so I guess that would make most of northern Tear just as "uninhabited" as the small villages and towns found in other unincorporated parts of Randland make the span of the river north of white bridge.

 

I fail to see why Tear feeding Carhien upriver for the past twenty years is sustainable, but Illian is unable to supply 30,000 men from less than half that distance for the weeks and months left until the last battle.

[CUBAREY]

also seem to recall that Tear has no towns bigger than a village at all beyond Tear and Godan, so I guess that would make most of northern Tear just as "uninhabited" as the small villages and towns found in other unincorporated parts of Randland make the span of the river north of white bridge.

 

Don't want to get in the middle of a debate between you and RAW (I do not pretend to have 1/10 the knowledge you guys obviously have) but I would like to point out some small error in your logic.

 

That the Highlords of Tear have made sure that no town can grow large enough to compete with Tear does not imply that most of northern Tear is as uninhabited as the unincorporated parts of Randland. My view of Norther Tear would be similar to most of England in the 19th century, mostly filled by small towns, farms and villages none of which compared in size or importance to London or Liverpool. That's a far cry from the few dispersed settlements in the unincorporated areas of Randland.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And when was the last harvest?

 

It doesn't matter.  With gateways, you can get to anyone who has food, more quickly than in ships.

 

Easy, the Volga river in Russia, (By the way, its the longest river in Europe.)  It transported wheat from the fertile river basins all throughout Russia.  Interestingly enough it was done using barges and serf labor to provide the draft power to pull them up river.  This went on for about 3 centuries.

 

Um, no.  Not only is the Volga only just over 2200 miles long, but it fully fails to meet the 1000 miles of uninhabited banks clause.

 

River trade in food and other bulk items has taken place, over relatively short distances, for all of human history.  Trading food, in large quantities, from Illian, to Saldaea, along the Manetherendrelle to the Arinelle, would be absurd.

 

Outside of this, we seem to be having some argumentative dissonance.  Do you think the Band is going to Whitebridge or not?  Of course they can eat in Illian.  I haven't once disputed that.

 

I have a host of other reasons for thinking that they are not going to Illian.  Which I'm not getting into here, because that will simply resurrect the last pointless discussion we had.  My whole argument about shipping is based on the idea, proposed in this thread, that Mat is going to have the whole band camp in the woods north of Whitebridge.  Which is absurd.

 

I think we're mixing our arguments, here.  Let me say it again.  The supply problems end of my argument has to do with the Band staying around Whitebridge for an extended period.  I'm not getting back into the "why the Band isn't going to Illian" argument.

 

"The [illian] port houses a large fishing fleet, which provides enough seafood to feed Illian and still export to neighboring nations." TBWB 279

 

Yes, in normal times.  These aren't normal times.  Or else, why did Illian need the imports from Tear so badly?  The Guide's descriptions of the nations no longer applies, in just about every case.  It describes pre-storyline conditions.

 

Once again, you are removing context from your conclusions.

 

In any case 30K is not any where near the size of most of the armies that exist in randland ATM, and we don't seem to have the same need to discuss how 100K borderlanders have hung out in the same uninhabited woods since WH without the help of any ruler or river

 

We don't have to discuss it because 1) we know they brought their supplies with them, to this point, and 2) we know they are about to starve if they don't move.

 

The idea that I'm opposing is that Mat can have the Band plunk down for an indeterminate period of time in the woods outside of the Tower of Ghenjei, or anywhere in the neighborhood of Whitebridge.

 

If you take that into my earlier quote from this post about Illian as an exporter of seafood, I doubt that Illian is exporting seafood to other coastal countries.  I guess then that it would be almost implicit that Illian does in fact ship food upriver....

 

It doesn't say what they ship where.  But shipping food upriver to, say, Lugard (Manetherendrelle to Reisendrelle) makes much more sense than shipping it to Saldaea, where they could just fish on their own coast.

 

Actually the instance that I was thinking of was horses being used to tow barges in Britain during the Roman's time there. Funny, I believe that the Britain was surrounded by the SEA even during Roman times, and yet they still used barges on RIVERS to move commodities.  Weird.

 

Not 3000 miles.  Context.

 

There are indications that the Nile (BTW the Longest river i n the world,) was used for long range trade as early as 20,000 BC as evidenced by examples of early Egyptian multiplication found near Lake Edward in the  Democratic Republic of the Congo.

 

One, you seem to think that I am defending the idea that food is one of Saldea's major imports.  I am not defending that idea.  It could be that food is one of Saldea's major imports, but we simply don't know.  In the specific case of Saldea we do know that the gemstones were products of Saldea and the borderlands, and as such were unlikely to be the cargo that was brought up river from Illian to be traded

 

You seem to be under the misapprehension that I'm denying that long range river trade ever took place.  I'm not.  I've described what kind of trade is taking place between Saldaea and Illian.  I'm saying that the trade structure we've observed in Randland would not allow the Band to be supplied for a significant period of time around Whitebridge, and that there is no comparable example in the real world to cite that would demonstrate that, because there isn't a comparable situation in the real world.

 

Unless there is a whole lot of food, ALREADY COMING UP THE RIVER, then Whitebridge is a crappy place to camp.  Its not like the Band can get to Whitebridge and then place an order.  Of course, they could do that in Caemlyn, because there are gateway making Aes Sedai there.  Which Mat and the leaders of the Band know.

 

The second misconception being that all that the Band will need is food.  A supply route will be bringing things like horse shoes and leather and metal goods as well.

 

Of course they'll need more than food.  However, they definitely WILL need food.  So that entire statement means ... well ... nothing.  Food is still the primary concern.

 

I'd cite the Amsterdam grain trade and Amsterdam's relative escape from the great European famine of the 1590's but I get the impression you are more interested in feeling that you are right than you are to listening to the facts of the matter

 

Honestly, I consider the Netherlands a footnote in history.  Sorry to anyone who lives in Amsterdam.  You'll notice the rest of Europe didn't do it.  Because it isn't practical on a nation-sized scale.  Amsterdam could do it because its barely a city-state.

 

You have cited an exception which proves the rule.  I was incorrect in stating that it never happened.  I'll amend that to: "It only happens very rarely on a relatively small scale, for relatively short periods of time, after which the examples in question return to a model of trading for small but valuable goods, which is the model I described between Saldaea and Illian."

 

Considering the relative frequency of famine in Europe for centuries, the fact that this is the best example you can provide is telling in and of itself.

 

TSR CH. 39 Doman tells the wondergirls that he has 12 good coasting ships and 4 deepwater ships.

 

Unless you think that Doman's ships were all sitting in the dock in Tanchio when the Seanchan showed up it seems a little far fetched to think that the Seanchan managed to confiscate them all. 

 

Now its your turn to cite where is says that he lost them, "ALL."

 

Um, yes, they were all either in Tanchico, or somewhere in what are now Seanchan controlled ports.  Are you honestly contending that the Seanchan held them for a man they sold as da'covale?!  Or do you think that some escaped, found a safe harbor, assumed that Bayle was just fine despite all that happened, and are just sipping martinis on deck waiting for him?

 

I'm sorry, but you have NOT cited anywhere that says they are just waiting for him in Illian.  You have demonstrated that they were in a port which was captured by people who consider Domon property.  So, its not my turn to do anything.  You find a place where any of them got away, and is still in communication with Domon, and then I'd have to pay attention ...

 

Frankly, even if one or two did get away, they would certainly not be answering to Domon any more.  Whoever was captaining them would have long since gone his own way, if he wasn't captured by the Seanchan.

 

Along what road?  I don't see a road between Tear and Carhein on my map

 

Well, there obviously is one.  Mervin Poel's steamwagon is moving a hundred miles per day along it in KoD ch 21.  There is more to this world than the map.  There is CONTEXT.

 

I fail to see why Tear feeding Carhien upriver for the past twenty years is sustainable, but Illian is unable to supply 30,000 men from less than half that distance for the weeks and months left until the last battle.

 

Because Illian already has to get food from Tear.  Because pretty much all the extra food in the south is getting on Sea Folk ships and going to Bandar Eban.  Because no one in Illian right now knows that the food needs to be sent.

 

All these are differences between the present, and the "last 20 years".

 

Finally, it makes no sense to ship by boat, when you can find someone perfectly capable of supplying you by gateway.  In Caemlyn.  Who you have promised to help.

 

And yes, I know I said I was done.  I'm cussing myself out for a lack of self-control as we speak.

[Epic]

First off, I don't think that Elayne needs or would even want the Band for help; she's got a pretty big army to do any consolidating she needs and any that was done by Mat would take away from her.

If they were to go to Caemlyn and use the Gateways to get food we don't know that there would be enough Channelers there capable of taking on the extra 31k men's food requirements.  Second, the argument that Elayne would need them to consolidate would automatically mean that they wouldn't be close enough to Caemlyn to use the gates.  Also, I'm pretty sure someone said that the Bordelanders were on the brink of starvation and were moving south.  Hmmm...seems like it will already be 200k extra mouths to feed around Caemlyn for a little while.  There's also probably a whole mess of farms around Whitebridge and all along the road to Caemlyn that could send food.  And if the Borderlander army could carry enough food all the way from the Borderlands to Braem Wood and still have enough left over from the trip to eat while they were there, why can't the Band do the same?  Lots of forest around Whitebridge, too bad that no one in the Band can hunt, oh well.  And I don't know why you would consider Illian as the only source of food, there are two rivers coming out of the Black Hills with four headwaters.

 

And just to disabuse RAW of the notion that the Dutch are just a footnote of history, there are currently 16.5 million people living the Netherlands, they beat the Hapsburg Empire to gain independance, and its because of Dutch troops that England stayed Protestant(just to name a few things), but its easy to ignore facts like that when you've got your own head so far up your ass that you don't need to go to the doctor at 40, you can just check yourself. 

[Dunedain Fal]

Europe never imported any significant portion of its food staples from abroad until the aftermath of WWII

 

Wrong. During the Roman times, Rome would get its grains from Egypt.  The grain from Egypt was so valuable that they went to war with anyone or during its civil wars, vie for control of Egypt's fertile lands to gain control of its grains.  So that tells you that Europe did imported significant portion of its food staples from abroad.

[RobertAlexWillis]

First off, I don't think that Elayne needs or would even want the Band for help; she's got a pretty big army to do any consolidating she needs and any that was done by Mat would take away from her.

 

A new ruler can always use troops she has reason to believe are loyal.  And nothing would be "done by Mat".  Mat is going to be in the Tower of Ghenjei.  When he gets back, the Band would leave Caemlyn and probably go wherever Rand is.  By gateway.  Which they can't do from Whitebridge.

 

If they were to go to Caemlyn and use the Gateways to get food we don't know that there would be enough Channelers there capable of taking on the extra 31k men's food requirements.

 

Yes we do.  Especially now that the siege is broken.

 

Second, the argument that Elayne would need them to consolidate would automatically mean that they wouldn't be close enough to Caemlyn to use the gates.

 

She can use them close to the city, and send the actual Andorans out into the more distant countryside.  That is just one of a large number of options.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure someone said that the Bordelanders were on the brink of starvation and were moving south. Hmmm...seems like it will already be 200k extra mouths to feed around Caemlyn for a little while.

 

LOL ... the Borderlanders will be moving through the countryside that you claim later in your post will be able to support the Band.  You just hamstrung your own argument.  The Borderlanders are NOT coming to Caemlyn.

 

There's also probably a whole mess of farms around Whitebridge and all along the road to Caemlyn that could send food.

 

Thats the argument you just hamstrung.

 

And if the Borderlander army could carry enough food all the way from the Borderlands to Braem Wood and still have enough left over from the trip to eat while they were there, why can't the Band do the same?

 

The Band can.  It can carry supplies to get it to its destination.  It is resupplying at its destination that is the problem.  Caemlyn is far better for that than Whitebridge.

 

Lots of forest around Whitebridge, too bad that no one in the Band can hunt, oh well.

 

LOL ... you don't know much about what it takes to feed an army, do you?

 

And I don't know why you would consider Illian as the only source of food, there are two rivers coming out of the Black Hills with four headwaters.

 

Nobody LIVES in the Black Hills, at least, not communities that can produce the excess food to feed an army.  Much less anyone who knows they are coming.

 

And If you didn't notice, Arad Doman (to the west) is in chaos.  In no condition to ship food.  Nor is anyone on Almoth Plain.  About the only option would be to bring food DOWN-river from Saldaea, except that no one in Saldaea knows the Band is coming north, and so, they aren't shipping anything, assuming they have it to spare.  Its not like the Band can get on the phone and contact people.  Of course, with gateways ...

 

Where could they find someone they know can make gateways ...  ::)

 

And just to disabuse RAW of the notion that the Dutch are just a footnote of history, there are currently 16.5 million people living the Netherlands, they beat the Hapsburg Empire to gain independance, and its because of Dutch troops that England stayed Protestant(just to name a few things), but its easy to ignore facts like that when you've got your own head so far up your ass that you don't need to go to the doctor at 40, you can just check yourself.

 

I'm glad you like your country, assuming it is your country.  Cloglord's example still isn't relevant, since it misses both the scale and the method (not only is the Netherlands far smaller than Saldaea, they were getting supplies from ocean trade, not up a river.)

 

You do know that the 16.5 million people you just named constitute approximately 0.24 percent of the world's population, right?  Thats less than 3 per 1000.  There are single cities with populations higher than that.

 

I'm sorry that hurts your feelings, and I'm sure that Amsterdam is a very nice place.  And if it makes you feel better, I live in a historical backwater too.

 

Wrong. During the Roman times, Rome would get its grains from Egypt.  The grain from Egypt was so valuable that they went to war with anyone or during its civil wars, vie for control of Egypt's fertile lands to gain control of its grains.  So that tells you that Europe did imported significant portion of its food staples from abroad.

 

Whatever trade there was from Egypt took place across the Mediterranean Sea, which is not a 3000 mile long river.  Please address my comments IN CONTEXT.  Your example is irrelevant to the issues at hand.

[Charlz Guybon]

First off, I don't think that Elayne needs or would even want the Band for help; she's got a pretty big army to do any consolidating she needs and any that was done by Mat would take away from her.

 

The apocalypse is on the horizon, an apocalypse that is expected to involved endless hordes of Shadowspawn. Elayne's has 120-130,000 soldiers on hand, but that's a number that would not have impressed the rulers of the Ten Nations that were ground down under the Trollocs heel/hoof. If she's smart she won't turn down their help.

[Kaznen]

The people who have been touting the use of gateways are greatly over estistimating there use.

 

Rand, the stronest channler in the world with a ter'angreal, moved less then 5000 people from Caemlyn to Carahien had to be carried off to bed when he was through and spent several days there.

 

Neald and Gradys' gateways have been crutial to Perrin for moving his troops but at the end of KoD they were spent and are going to be out of commission for a while.

 

Rand, Neald, and Grady are stronger then any of the women channlers with Elayne (includeing Elayne) and would not be able to use their gateways to support Caemlyn.

 

Right before the siege Elayne evacuated the city and starting buying up every bit of food there was to sell.  Then she used the 3 AS (now dead) several of the kin (few of whom are also dead) and the Windfinders (leaving soon) with her to open gateways to bring in food to keep the city from starving.  They weren't eating large feasts every night all food was rationed for the soldiers to keep their strength and the common people from starving.

 

If the use of gateways for trade was unlimited, like some seem to think, Rand wouldn't need the Sea Folk ships to move supplies and troops like he asked for in the Bargain.

 

Another point, Mat is a ta'veren and he "finds what he needs when he needs it, even before he knows he needs it."  If the pattern decided the Band needed to go into the Aiel Waste, he would be able to feed them because the pattern would find a way.  So if the pattern tells him to take is Band someplace, like he is told to go to the Tower of Ghenji, he will be able to find a way to feed them.

 

And when he was heading from Carahien to Tear he used ships to carry food. 

[Epic]

All right, where to begin?

First off, I am in fact from Canada, the capital in as it happens, and don't like it when people belittle my own country and as long as people belittle others then there's a chance they'll belittle mine(I'm actually kinda pissed about good Ol'King Billy and his Dutch troops, as they perpetuated Protestant brutality in Ireland and keeping down the Catholics.  And the fact that in Northern Ireland they march through the Catholic Quarters of cities for their Orange Day Parades; my heritage is Irish.)

 

As to hamstringing my own argument.... not so much.  Borderlanders are in Braem Wood, yes?  Elayne told them that Rand was somewhere in Murandy(Ireland, kick ass).  Take a look at Monsieur Guybon's map, in his signature, and you'll see that the fastest way from Braem Wood to Murandy just happens to go through...could it be?  Yes it is. CAEMLYN.

 

As to sending away Andoran troops and keeping the Band close?  Seriously?  "Let's send away the troops who have been loyal to me from start to finish and will do w/e I ask to where they'll be far away and can't get back in time if they're needed. Who will protect Caemlyn?  Why, those drinkers, gamblers, and no-good womanizers, who I can not command fully and belong to another irascible gambler, who may call them away to go dicing and tavern crawling with him on a whim."  "That's a marvelous idea Elayne," said Dyelin.  Please.  Oh, and sending Andorans out into the country, she still needs to feed them.  And if you're going to say that farms from Whitebridge will feed the marching Borderlanders, then I guess that farms from Baerlon and that area can feed the Band since its about the same distance

 

I don't think that an army of 30K can live off the woods; I'm not an idiot.  I do however think that every little bit helps.  And while you have soldiers out hunting, even if it is only a thousand and even if they are only bringing back marginal amounts of food, its a thousand men that are out living on the land and not requiring you to feed them or their horses.  

 

Romans also imported food from Carthage(modern day Tunisia) and from all over the Empire.  Rome(city) alone was one million people and they had plenty of legion forts all across the Empire to maintain as well, From Hadrian's Wall, to the Alps, to the Danube, to Anatolia.

 

Shadowspawn aren't going to be menacing any southern cities in this book(its only the first of a trilogy, so she doesn't need the Band for that).

 

Maradon is also Saldea's only port, not counting all the other river ports that lead up to it, as the coast is all cliffs and bluffs with no harborages.  Meaning that Saldea would have routes of import and export: To TV, to Chachin, to Bandar Eban, not an option right now and quite frankly neither is TV, which leaves the fourth route down the river to Illian, where a much wider range of commodoties and exotic could be had then at Chachin.  Hypothetical situation: Mat and Band arrive at Whitebridge.  Mat, "Well boys it looks like we'll be here for a month or so while I take care of business.  We're gonna need food."  Olver,"Wow, look at the bridge.  It's huge, I bet a whole ship could fit under it."  Mat chuckles.  Then it dawns on him.  He races to the docks where he tells the captain of every ship to spread the word at each stop that there's big money to be had at Whitebridge for bulk food.  Not entirely plausible, but not as rediculousas some other things that have happened, like Moiraine tackling Lanfear instead of just balefiring the shit out of her or Elayne running off to fight the Black Ajah while pregnant with twins.

 

I know I've rambled a bit, but...oh well.

 

p.s. thanks Kaznen, you posted while I was still writing mine and have made some points I'd entirely forgotten about.  You're the man.

[Kaznen]

Thank you epic.

 

I too am of Irish heritage, although I live in a real country.  ;) ;D

 

All kidding aside.

 

White bridge is also looking to be a meeting point for the Whitecloaks and Perrin's group.

 

Galad and his whitecloaks are leaving the seachan controled area and looking for help to fight the seanchan.  For Galad, going to Andor isn't a bad idea.  His sister is there and the Black Tower.  Soon after he crosses into Andor he'll hear about an army of Dragonsworn set up in Whitebridge, and not the Prophet's rabble but a real army.  And he'll think, Rand al'Thor fought the seanchan and gave them a real butt whooping, let's check these guys out.

 

Then Perrin, who doesn't want to go through Seanchan controlled areas will also head North out of Altara, following in the whitecloaks trail, he'll hear about The Band of the Red Hand at Whitebridge and if he doesn't know that's Mat's army Cha Faile does (fair bet the men in the society tried to join the Band) so he'll go the Whitebridge to hook up with Mat.

 

An army of Dragonsworn and Rand's top Liuentents(?) being in Whitebridge will attact the borderland armies.

[General Cauthon]

The people who have been touting the use of gateways are greatly over estistimating there use.

 

In PoD, Egwene has a circle of 13 Aes Sedai make a Gateway 10 paces tall and 100 paces wide. She moves her entire army, and everyone in the Aes Sedai camp through it. That's probably more than 100000 people all in all.

 

Elayne has enough channelers in Caemlyn to make several Gateways like this(there's more then 100 of the Kin in Caemlyn). When speaking of capacity, Elayne could probably have all the food in Tear moved to Caemlyn in a few days.

(I don't understand why Rand doesn't use Gateways to get food to Arad Doman, he must be insane ;))

 

Rand, the stronest channler in the world with a ter'angreal, moved less then 5000 people from Caemlyn to Carahien had to be carried off to bed when he was through and spent several days there.

 

I can't remember this, in which book did this happen?

 

Neald and Gradys' gateways have been crutial to Perrin for moving his troops but at the end of KoD they were spent and are going to be out of commission for a while.

 

Yes, but then they had been making Gateways constantly for days, moving tens of thousands of troops. If they had moved just 1000 carts of food instead, that would be an huge amount of food. And Elayne has more then 50 times as many channelers to make Gateways. She can afford to give her channelers plenty of time to rest, so that they wouldn't be exchausted.

 

If the use of gateways for trade was unlimited, like some seem to think, Rand wouldn't need the Sea Folk ships to move supplies and troops like he asked for in the Bargain.

 

I agree with this. Rand should have just asked the wWindfinders to make a Gateway(or several), and he could have sent all the food through on wagons. This would be 1000 times more effective. Perhaps we will find out why Rand didn't do this in one of the upcoming books.

 

Another point, Mat is a ta'veren and he "finds what he needs when he needs it, even before he knows he needs it."  If the pattern decided the Band needed to go into the Aiel Waste, he would be able to feed them because the pattern would find a way.  So if the pattern tells him to take is Band someplace, like he is told to go to the Tower of Ghenji, he will be able to find a way to feed them.

 

And when he was heading from Carahien to Tear he used ships to carry food.

 

Mat used ships in addition to supply wagons. In fact, Mat think about how the ships carry mainly horse fooder. Which seems to me like most of his supplies are transported by the wagons. It's all in chapter 22 of LoC.

[Majsju]

In PoD, Egwene has a circle of 13 Aes Sedai make a Gateway 10 paces tall and 100 paces wide. She moves her entire army, and everyone in the Aes Sedai camp through it. That's probably more than 100000 people all in all.

 

Elayne has enough channelers in Caemlyn to make several Gateways like this(there's more then 100 of the Kin in Caemlyn). When speaking of capacity, Elayne could probably have all the food in Tear moved to Caemlyn in a few days.

(I don't understand why Rand doesn't use Gateways to get food to Arad Doman, he must be insane ;))

 

What Egwene and Elayne did is quite different from Rands situation.

Egwene moved an army to start a siege. There was no way there would be any need for the channelers she used to do anything with the power for quite some time. Especially not enter a battle against other channelers.

For Elayne, it was politically impossible to use any channelers in battle, so she could use them for other tasks.

 

Rand is a completely different story. He is preparing a campaign that would dwarf anything we have seen in the books if it actually started. A campaign against an enemy that has several hundred channelers that knows pretty much only one thing about the power: to use it on the battlefield. He can simply not afford to have any of his Asha'man too exhausted to fight if it comes to that.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

Right before the siege Elayne evacuated the city and starting buying up every bit of food there was to sell. 

 

I'm sure other people have already responded to the rest of this post, but I had to ask where this is mentioned. I have no recollection of her evacuating the city and indeed don't believe it happened. 

[MikeRiley]

She told the mercs to enlist in the Queen's Guard or get out and told the citizens now was the time to leave if they want to escape the siege, if I remember right. It was more a warning to the merchants who would be trapped there. It wasn't a forced evacuation, more a heads up.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK.  I guess we'll see what happens in November.  The sort of OUT OF CONTEXT tit for tat that this is degenerating into is why I tried to get out earlier.

 

Allow me to apologize to the wonderful people of the extraordinary nation of the Netherlands.  I swear to never again acknowledge the tiny stature of your nation.

[General Cauthon]

In PoD, Egwene has a circle of 13 Aes Sedai make a Gateway 10 paces tall and 100 paces wide. She moves her entire army, and everyone in the Aes Sedai camp through it. That's probably more than 100000 people all in all.

 

Elayne has enough channelers in Caemlyn to make several Gateways like this(there's more then 100 of the Kin in Caemlyn). When speaking of capacity, Elayne could probably have all the food in Tear moved to Caemlyn in a few days.

(I don't understand why Rand doesn't use Gateways to get food to Arad Doman, he must be insane ;))

 

What Egwene and Elayne did is quite different from Rands situation.

Egwene moved an army to start a siege. There was no way there would be any need for the channelers she used to do anything with the power for quite some time. Especially not enter a battle against other channelers.

For Elayne, it was politically impossible to use any channelers in battle, so she could use them for other tasks.

 

Rand is a completely different story. He is preparing a campaign that would dwarf anything we have seen in the books if it actually started. A campaign against an enemy that has several hundred channelers that knows pretty much only one thing about the power: to use it on the battlefield. He can simply not afford to have any of his Asha'man too exhausted to fight if it comes to that.

 

I agree 100% with your reasons why Rand couldn't use any Asha'man, but what about the Windfinders? He just sent several hundred of them SAILING with food to Arad Doman. Or what about his Wise Ones, couldn't he ask them to do it? As demonstrated by Egwene, he probably wouldn't need more then a dozen linked.