The Gathering Storm Finished

[Roxinos]

No, I measured it correctly. You just refuse to take other (relevant) variables into account. You're usually smarter than that. The size would be dependant upon many things. For example, margins and font size. Adjust them, and there and more words per page and so fewer pages. That it would be big is undeniable, but exactly how big is rather less clear cut.

 

Yes, and when Elgee pointed that out, I acknowledged it. If you want me to acknowledge you as well, then fine. I acknowledge this point. Yay for you, Mr. Ares! It was a small oversight on my part.

 

Well, given her admission that he wouldn't split it...

 

I just shot Brandon an e-mail considering this contentious point. We shall see.

[CUBAREY]

Quote from Mr Ares

 

The size would be dependant upon many things. For example, margins and font size. Adjust them, and there and more words per page and so fewer pages. That it would be big is undeniable, but exactly how big is rather less clear cut.

 

We are talking about a popular fiction novel. There are limits to the amount a font size and margins can be reduced. Taking my paperback copies of WOT as a guide I really do not think that reducing the font is a workable solution to length concerns.

[Mr Ares]

We are talking about a popular fiction novel. There are limits to the amount a font size and margins can be reduced.

There is still some leeway, though, which would be important in determining precisely how big a single volume would be.

[CUBAREY]

We are talking about a popular fiction novel. There are limits to the amount a font size and margins can be reduced.

There is still some leeway, though, which would be important in determining precisely how big a single volume would be.

 

If you looked at my full statement you would see that I really do not think that there is much of a leeway since the font size they already use on the paperbacks is quite small.

[Elgee]

I've already had to get new glasses to read the smallest print - if they make it any smaller, I'd need a magnifying glass  ::)

[Jonn]

No. I don't. But I know what was said.

 

No.  You're selectively choosing one thing he said, and ignoring everything else in the situation, because you can make it seem to support how you feel.

 

Are you mental? He said he wanted to finish the series with A Memory of Light. He said it more than once. He spared no hyperbole for how much he wanted this. Phrases he used like it taking a wheelbarrow or dolly to cart the book out of the store and Tor having to come up with a new binding system for the book...

 

What other way can you take that?

 

He wanted it to be one book. He was very frank about that.

 

Mr Ares:

I know it may seem like it, but I don't actually disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. If I disagree with you, I assure you, I honestly don't agree with you on the point. If I agree with you, I don't care who you are, if I agree, I agree.

 

It's that simple.

 

The bottom line is: The way Sanderson describes it, if he kept working on the novel as one novel, the soonest we'd get read it would be in 2011.

 

You know what? I would have waited. Not because I had to, but because I would not have minded if Sanderson took his time to do it right, as RJ wanted it to be. I know that if I were the one to get tapped with assembling this last work, the more time I could spend on refining it, the better.

 

That's just the way I see it, but you know...I have faith that Sanderson will do just fine, so I'm hopeful for a good November this year.

[Roxinos]

The bottom line is: The way Sanderson describes it, if he kept working on the novel as one novel, the soonest we'd get read it would be in 2011.

 

I agree, I would have waited as well. But I don't fault Tom and Harriet for their decision.

[Mr Ares]

If you looked at my full statement

I did. There's not much room for manoeuvre, but there is some.

 

Mr Ares:

I know it may seem like it, but I don't actually disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. If I disagree with you, I assure you, I honestly don't agree with you on the point. If I agree with you, I don't care who you are, if I agree, I agree.

I know, and I'm the same. It's just we do seem to end up on opposite sides more often than on the same side.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Are you mental? He said he wanted to finish the series with A Memory of Light. He said it more than once. He spared no hyperbole for how much he wanted this. Phrases he used like it taking a wheelbarrow or dolly to cart the book out of the store and Tor having to come up with a new binding system for the book...

 

What other way can you take that?

 

He wanted it to be one book. He was very frank about that.

 

You can take it in the context of the fact that the man knew he was dying, and really wanted to finish it himself, so he knew he only had time for maybe one more book.

 

If you look at his "one book left" statements and only those statements, then yes, it seems obvious.  If you consider the complexity of reality, then its not so simple.  In other places and times he has said things like "It will take as as long as it takes" and "I don't really know how many more books".  He changed his tune when he knew he was dying.

 

His desire to finish in one and only one more book seems to have stemmed mainly from the fact of his impending death, not some idea that the integrity of the story would be compromised by multiple volumes.  Unfortunately, his plans to survive and finish it himself went unfulfilled as well.

 

So, no, I'm not "mental", as nice as that would be for you.  I'm accepting the complexity of reality, not fixating on a single idea that lets me feel like the victim of some plot for extortion.

[Charlz Guybon]

No. I don't. But I know what was said.

 

No.  You're selectively choosing one thing he said, and ignoring everything else in the situation, because you can make it seem to support how you feel.

 

Are you mental? He said he wanted to finish the series with A Memory of Light. He said it more than once. He spared no hyperbole for how much he wanted this. Phrases he used like it taking a wheelbarrow or dolly to cart the book out of the store and Tor having to come up with a new binding system for the book...

 

What other way can you take that?

 

When someone uses hyperbole it makes me less likely to take them seriously. Especially when taken in context as RAW outlines in post above mine.

[Dmitri]

His desire to finish in one and only one more book seems to have stemmed mainly from the fact of his impending death, not some idea that the integrity of the story would be compromised by multiple volumes.  Unfortunately, his plans to survive and finish it himself went unfulfilled as well.

 

That's the point to which I agree wholeheartedy. RJ didn't mean "I want AMoL to be a single printed book" - he wanted it to be simply the last book in the series.

Which meant the ending he knew from the beginning of the series would be in this book.

And it's just what we get from Brandon now.

=============

By the way, all this conversations about "1 book - 3 volumes - 3 books" are so unimportant for me as a Russian reader (actually, for all Russian readers). You know why?

 

Because when I bought this series, we had TEotW, TGH, TDR, TPoD, WH, CoT & KoD sold only split in 2 volumes, and TSR, TFoH, LoC & ACoS - only split in 3!  ;D

 

And only a few years ago they started selling kind of "omnibus" editions...

 

And noone asked us, the readers.

[Ludmian]

You can take it in the context of the fact that the man knew he was dying, and really wanted to finish it himself, so he knew he only had time for maybe one more book.

 

If you look at his "one book left" statements and only those statements, then yes, it seems obvious.  If you consider the complexity of reality, then its not so simple.  In other places and times he has said things like "It will take as as long as it takes" and "I don't really know how many more books".  He changed his tune when he knew he was dying.

 

You are either mistaken or deliberately misrepresent "the context of the fact" (I don't know which is true though the fact that people who defend Tor's decision base a lot of their arguments on statements that are either obviously false or cannot be supported by reliable sources is speaking for itself). RJ definitely said that the series is going to end with book 12 before before BEFORE he was diagnosed with Amyloidosis. The reason for that was that he didn't see any breaking points in the remaining part of the story. And why do you think that he hoped to write a 1500-page book quicker than 3 books 500 pages each?

 

When someone uses hyperbole it makes me less likely to take them seriously. Especially when taken in context as RAW outlines in post above mine.

 

The fact that RJ was absolutely serious about AMoL being the last book in the series should be evident to everyone who actually read what he said. Unless you want to say that RJ deliberately lied to us.

 

That's the point to which I agree wholeheartedy. RJ didn't mean "I want AMoL to be a single printed book" - he wanted it to be simply the last book in the series.

Which meant the ending he knew from the beginning of the series would be in this book.

And it's just what we get from Brandon now.

=============

By the way, all this conversations about "1 book - 3 volumes - 3 books" are so unimportant for me as a Russian reader (actually, for all Russian readers). You know why?

 

Because when I bought this series, we had TEotW, TGH, TDR, TPoD, WH, CoT & KoD sold only split in 2 volumes, and TSR, TFoH, LoC & ACoS - only split in 3!  ;D

 

And only a few years ago they started selling kind of "omnibus" editions...

 

And noone asked us, the readers.

 

Yes, the Russian translations of RJ's books were first published in 2-3 volumes (though wasn't KoD published in 1 volume only? I haven't yet seen it in bookshops, but from what I understood from the descriptions at Internet shops there are 2 one-volume Russian editions of KoD with alternative covers). But they did not invent any novels not intended by the author. They published them under the titles, for example, The Eye of the world. Volume 1 and The Eye of the World. Volume 2 and sold them together. Actually, it's not unusual for Russian publishers to do this with longer works of fiction. Maybe that's why I would consider this an acceptable solution for AMoL (though it would be better, of course, to publish it in one volume, as the author intended). But to discard the title RJ had in mind for his last book, to butcher it into three novels and publish them a year apart from each other under crappy titles is completely unacceptable, IMHO.

[Roxinos]

The reason for that was that he didn't see any breaking points in the remaining part of the story.

 

That's a pretty big leap. Prove he thought that.

[Ludmian]

The reason for that was that he didn't see any breaking points in the remaining part of the story.

 

That's a pretty big leap. Prove he thought that.

 

Yet another report comes in from Kevin Dean, one of Dragonmount’s staff members who attended the event...

 

 

RJ then went on to say that during the signing, he would be asked a few questions, as he always is. The second person in line, he said, would ask “When is the next book coming out”. He gave us a gurantee that we could “take to the bank” that it would be on shelves shortly after he finished writing it. And the fourth person would inveriably ask, “How many more books in the series” which he explained the same way as other signing, about needing a “dolly” to carry the thing out. But unlike other accounts, he said at this point, it is not possible for him to write two more coherent books. He said he might get one coherent book, and one incoherent, or two semi-coherent, so tWoT would be finished by book 12. He then mentioned the two planned prequels, and said they would be written. After a brief pause, he said “… I would not write in the Wheel of Time universe again unless I had a GREAT idea. I may have had one.” He went on to say that he has an idea that MIGHT end up being two or maybe three “outrigger” novels, not part of the main sequence, and not prequels per se, but following other characters, at another time. He said this is not definite, and that he had to “poke around at the idea” before he decided. He doesn’t want to “write anything just to write it”.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=234

 

So that's as simple as that. He wanted AMoL to be the last book in the series however long the book might be because he didn't see how he could break the remaining story into several parts. At the same time he was planning the prequels, the outrigger novels, The Infinity of Heaven and what not. He did not decide to finish the series with AMoL because he "had time only for one more book".

[Jonn]

No. I don't. But I know what was said.

 

No.  You're selectively choosing one thing he said, and ignoring everything else in the situation, because you can make it seem to support how you feel.

 

Are you mental? He said he wanted to finish the series with A Memory of Light. He said it more than once. He spared no hyperbole for how much he wanted this. Phrases he used like it taking a wheelbarrow or dolly to cart the book out of the store and Tor having to come up with a new binding system for the book...

 

What other way can you take that?

 

When someone uses hyperbole it makes me less likely to take them seriously. Especially when taken in context as RAW outlines in post above mine.

 

Hyperbole is used for emphasis, just so you know. So if someone wants to describe something, and communicate an idea, well, emphatically, if not EXACTLY literally, but enough so that someone cannot possibly deny what they truly mean at the heart of it, in their soul, I mean really REALLY-

 

Are we there yet?  ;)

 

I'm sorry guys (Robert, Dmitri, Charlz), but I honestly think you guys are the ones who are off here.

You're making one of the simplest things the great man said into the most complicated thing ever.

He wanted it to end with A Memory of Light? Uh...yeah. Like...A Memory of Light as one book...not three books in three years with three F***ing titles.

 

At this point, I'm not even sure if they're going to even keep the title "A Memory of Light".

 

I think they should just call it what it is...the continuation of the series...Or how about this: Call it a miniseries within the main series constituting the end of the series. Or a better fit probably be to rename it "A Memory of the Final Book Concept".

 

This isn't a lark like the Asmodean mystery theater, where context is an issue. He said it in interviews. He wrote about it. People close to him talked about it openly. He was very serious about it. And whether or not he wanted it because he was dying... It's still what he wanted. In fact, it makes it all the more meaningful because he did pass away wanting it to be that way. That's the way I see it.

 

I mean, I've never heard of an interview or documentation where he changed his mind about that. You don't hear Harriet saying that before he passed, he told her, "...the whole final book thing, well, needn't be taken literally. I know I said so, but hey, I was just fooling about with the idea. Needn't take anything I say literally or at face value, because as everyone knows, everything I say or do has to be an enigma, because I'm not a human or anything that wants to communicate in a straightforward manner."

 

It's not a mystery to be solved or a puzzle. It wasn't even RAFO'ed. He wasn't being coy. He wanted to finish the series in one go, so he started writing what came to be known as A Memory of Light.

 

Sanderson mentions several times that he had begun his involvement with the understanding that he would be writing ONE BOOK. The finale, el ultimo, fin. In his audio interview he said quite clearly that he's writing A Memory of Light as a single piece, and that was his approach until recently.

 

It's pretty straight forward stuff here. I'll continue to say that the source of the confusion is Tor and their mishandling of information, because obviously many people seem pretty confused here.

 

I'm not one of them. I don't have to make anything up here. RJ wanted to do one book, Sanderson wanted to respect that wish and tried. Tor ABSOLUTELY did not want it to be one book for a variety of reasons, so they d***ed around with their press statements and only last month decided to let us in on what we already knew would happen.

 

They got forced by the industry to make a business decision. They chose business over personal. Hate to be pessimistic, but hey, I knew they would. I'm just not fooling myself into thinking that this is the best thing to do for the sake of it.

 

Happy as I am to get this next book, I know when I'm getting hosed. Just stop lying, and stop lying to Brandon Sanderson, because God bless him, he still thinks he's writing one book.

If there are three physical books, with three release dates, and you have to find a "natural break" to end each installment so they'll "work" as stand alone pieces...

 

YOU. ARE. WRITING. THREE. BOOKS.

 

Tor's getting a sweet deal here. They even have unpaid advocates here to defend them on these message boards. Advocates who don't question their authority or their decisions, not even for the sake of just keeping an eye on things they care about. I mean...you're just banking on Tor blind- so much so that you're willing to play the semantics game with things Robert Jordan said plain as day. Amazing.

 

Why? Because you want something now. You want your quick fix. Hey, and doesn't that just fit the age we are living in. I'm guilty too. I'll take it, but I know why I'm taking it and I don't care to reason my way around it. I'm short on patience. I've been waiting for 15 years, half of my life. I want something.

 

But what bothers me is that I wanted to see this ending done the way the man wanted it to be done, and that's been compromised.

Sad.

 

And I can see just now Ludmian was kind enough to put up a reference. It pretty much represents the things I've read and heard of many times when RJ was asked since, well-since Knife of Dreams was released. Thank you Ludmian.

 

Unfortunately, no doubt some here will argue the "context" of your quote or outright call you and the person you referenced, a liar of some sort. Just know that I'm with you on this to some degree.

I won't say absolutely 100%.

We mustn't overindulge in hyperbole now.

[Roxinos]

So that's as simple as that. He wanted AMoL to be the last book in the series however long the book might be because he didn't see how he could break the remaining story into several parts. At the same time he was planning the prequels, the outrigger novels, The Infinity of Heaven and what not. He did not  decide to finish the series with AMoL because he "had time only for one more book".

 

Thanks for the quotes.

 

However, RJ is not a god. He couldn't foresee the future. And the fact that Brandon is writing the same story and has found two places to split the book within the plot tells me that Jordan could have done the same.

 

So while RJ may have wanted it to be one book before his death, I stand at my previous assertion that had he lived long enough to continue writing, he would have come to the same snag Brandon did and would have split the series as well. I await Brandon's response for an explanation on that little section in his "A Memory of Light Split" article that causes so much contention.

 

Ah well, it's all come down to that.

[Ludmian]

And I can see just now Ludmian was kind enough to put up a reference. It pretty much represents the things I've read and heard of many times when RJ was asked since, well-since Knife of Dreams was released. Thank you Ludmian.

 

Unfortunately, no doubt some here will argue the "context" of your quote or outright call you and the person you referenced, a liar of some sort. Just know that I'm with you on this to some degree.

I won't say absolutely 100%.

We mustn't overindulge in hyperbole now.

 

Thanks for your support, Jonn. I wholeheartedly agree with most of the things you said in your post as well.

 

Thanks for the quotes.

 

However, RJ is not a god. He couldn't foresee the future. And the fact that Brandon is writing the same story and has found two places to split the book within the plot tells me that Jordan could have done the same.

 

So while RJ may have wanted it to be one book before his death, I stand at my previous assertion that had he lived long enough to continue writing, he would have come to the same snag Brandon did and would have split the series as well. I await Brandon's response for an explanation on that little section in his "A Memory of Light Split" article that causes so much contention.

 

Ah well, it's all come down to that.

 

You're welcome.

However, I do insist that we can't possibly know what RJ would have decided if he were alive. He might have decided to split the book, or insisted on publishing it as a single volume. We can only make guesses about that, that's really not a point to argue about. But we know for sure that until his death he wanted the series to end with book 12, so if the people at Tor have at least some respect for RJ they need to follow the author's final wish as closely as possible. Splitting the book into three novels and publishing them a year apart from each other under crappy titles is anything but "following RJ's wish as closely as possible".

And no offence to Brandon, but if Tor had decided to break AMoL into 8 parts he would have found 8 splitting points. Really, no offence. He has always treated AMoL as one book and even now hopes for an omnibus edition, but while RJ could have tried to insist on his decision, Brandon simply has to accept Tor's decision and do his best in the conditions imposed by Tor.

[Majsju]

 

And no offence to Brandon, but if Tor had decided to break AMoL into 8 parts he would have found 8 splitting points. Really, no offence. 

 

And how is that "no offence" to Brandon? I would say it is extremely insulting to Brandon. You are basically calling him a tool, with no artistic integrity whatsoever.

 

Well, if that is your opinion about Brandon, fine. At least have the guts to say it.

[Ludmian]

 

And no offence to Brandon, but if Tor had decided to break AMoL into 8 parts he would have found 8 splitting points. Really, no offence.   

 

And how is that "no offence" to Brandon? I would say it is extremely insulting to Brandon. You are basically calling him a tool, with no artistic integrity whatsoever.

 

Well, if that is your opinion about Brandon, fine. At least have the guts to say it.

 

No, that's not my opinion of Brandon Sanderson. I'm simply acknowledging the fact that he is in no position to dictate his own rules to Tor. He may tell Tor his opinions (like, "I think it will be better for the book if we choose the splitting point after the first 300,000 words rather than 225,000") and Tor even may take some of them into consideration to some small extent, but after all it's Tor who decides when and how the book is published. Brandon has to accept the decisions, even if he doesn't agree with them, and do his best to make those decisions suck a little less than they could (which includes, among other things, finding more appropriate points to split the book, rearranging scenes etc.).

[Mr Ares]

The fact that RJ was absolutely serious about AMoL being the last book in the series should be evident to everyone who actually read what he said. Unless you want to say that RJ deliberately lied to us.

Not just to us. To his publishers. KoD says it is the penultimate book in the series. They didn't just make that up. All things considered, it's hard to see how people can come to any conclusion other than RJ wanted one more book, no matter how long, because it was only by being one book that it would be any good. His imminent death had nothing to do with it. As for the "disputed" statement, well, unless you wish to contend that even if RJ was offered the chance to keep his promises he would still refuse, it really can't mean anything other than that he would not split the book.

[Goramier]

My thoughts.

 

I am not an author nor publisher so I have no idea how it works out. They are not just creating books but running a business. I can respect that like everyone else, they have to make money and deal with business decisions. I am also a fan of the series and have enjoyed it for 9 years now. The fan side of me wanted it to come to an end with a single book, published this year. I know that may ultimately been impossible but that is what I would have liked. I wanted to read the end of the series. After 9 years, I would like to know how it concludes and wouldn't have been upset if Brandon had chosen to condense it into one book and finish it off so we know how it ends.

 

On the other hand, with BS doing it this way, we can read the full scale and scope of the ending. We can learn all the ponts, have all the ends wrapped up and read a full ending. I am not entirely sure RJ would have done it that way though. Although as this thread points out that it is something people can debate, I too believe that RJ intended only one more book. I also suspect he meant to leave some things in the air. I figured he would have concluded the series. Later finished the prequels and maybe after a few years, would have wrote a final book that would have finished off every loose end. As he started the prequels before finishing the series, I think it would be reasonable he would have finished the series with one more book and then years later, wrote a final book that basically finished tying up all the supporting characters, would have descibed the world post Tarmon and gave us that nice warm/fuzzy feeling.

 

So part of me is disapointed that BS is writing three but part of me is glad that I can read the full ending too. Ultimately I would rather have had it wrapped up in one book. I think books 10 and 11 were dragging the story out as they were. Outside of Perrin becoming a dark friend and RJ needing a backing for it, I think those books were really a waste. Just my opinion.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

The fact that RJ was absolutely serious about AMoL being the last book in the series should be evident to everyone who actually read what he said. Unless you want to say that RJ deliberately lied to us.

 

I never believed there was going to be just one more book, and never thought that he expected us to believe it when he said it. It's just one of those things he had to say that everyone understands isn't true. I don't consider that a lie. If someone's gullible enough to fall for it that's not his fault.

[CUBAREY]

I think books 10 and 11 were dragging the story out as they were. Outside of Perrin becoming a dark friend and RJ needing a backing for it, I think those books were really a waste. Just my opinion.

 

While many people have complained about the slow pace of books 9 and 10 you are the first to complain that book 11 (KOD) was "filler". My God man, look at all the happended in KOD; Galad kills Valda and takes charge of the Chidlren of Light; Perrin rescues Faile; Maasema's army of Dragon Sworn is decimated; The Shado are destroyed as an effective force; Semi-Rand encounter (Semi captured Rand looses had), MAT, Thom and Noal agree to try to rescue Morraine; Tuon-Mat finallly get married; Tuon returns to Ebod Dar as Empress (epilogue);Loial gets married and decides to go to great Stump. If anything Book 11 seemed rushed to me.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The fact that RJ was absolutely serious about AMoL being the last book in the series should be evident to everyone who actually read what he said. Unless you want to say that RJ deliberately lied to us.

 

Of course he was serious.  He was also serious about staying alive.  He fully intended to try to get the whole story into one book.  That doesn't mean he would have succeeded, or that Brandon Sanderson should take a hacksaw to the story now to make sure it fits.

 

Context, people, context.

[Roxinos]

"I'm simply acknowledging the fact that he is in no position to dictate his own rules to Tor."

 

Yes he does. If he says, "I'm sorry, but it just cannot be done," then they have to deal with it. Unless his contract says, "You finish it as fast as humanly possible, and you have no say in the matter whatsoever." Which, I highly doubt it does. They can, of course, still split it without the author's consent, but when approached with the question, Brandon found a point in which the 400k words he'd written so far could be split well.

 

I spent a few days in January looking over the material, and came to Tom and Harriet with a proposal. I had what I felt would make the best book possible, divided in a certain way, which came out to be around 275,000 words. It had several strong character arcs, it told a very good story, and it closed several important plot threads. I felt it would be an excellent book.

 

If he could not find a place in which he could appropriately split the work he'd put into words so far, then he would have told Tom and Harriet as much, and they would have made the choice to either publish this year or continue on. So I'd say Brandon does have at least a little control.

 

Of course, that control is based on hypothetical situations compared to what actually happened.

 

I'm not even sure what people are angry about. Writing is a commercial art, for the most part. You expect a certain level of manipulation from publishers and such. I doubt even Jordan had complete control over the writing process over his 12 written Wheel of Time books. To fault Tor for doing what we knew they were going to do is kind of silly. Tor's choices are pragmatism at its finest.

 

As I've said, it has really come down to that one line of text on Brandon's site. Whether or not Harriet and Tom think Jordan could have published A Memory of Light in one book.

 

Don't let disappointment turn into anger. Especially not at people who are just as anxious as you are to see the series done.