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has egwene done the nasty?


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I really don't want to meet the people who laugh at murder....

What about little children who giggle as Elmer Fudd shoots Daffy Duck in the face?  Have you seen "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" or any of the "Die Hard" movies?  Have you played "Madworld" or "Unreal Tournament"?  I would be surprised if you have never laughed at (fictional) fatal violence.  Most people have.

 

What is Rape?  The answer: forcing an unwilling person into unwanted intercourse of some kind

You say that, but then you say:

So I don't think there is some objective criteria we can look at that determines a rape.

Which is contradictory.  Of course, there is such a criteria:  "I was raped" = "I didn't want to have sex but I did".  As long as Mat didn't want to have sex, Tylin raped him.  Maybe he changed his mind after 10 seconds: it doesn't matter.

In this case we have a brief view at the alleged rapist but a huge insight into the mind of the victim.  In my opinion, Mat's reactions, attitudes and overall effects do not fit the profile of a rape victim.

We know that Mat was unwilling, that the sex was unwanted (the first time).  That should be all that matters, according to your definition.  So how is it that Mat doesn't fit the profile of a rape victim?  All of a sudden you start deviating from your definition to include "overall effects" and "attitudes" of the victim.  Rape victims do not have standard responses to being raped.  The reaction depends on the circumstances and the people involved.  It's still rape even if the victim ends up enjoying it, as long as the victim didn't want to have sex at first.

 

The problem:  Who decides if a person is willing or unwilling?  Or if intercourse is wanted vs. unwanted?  Or what is "force?"

The rape victim decides those things.  In this case we know Mat was unwilling because of what he did, said, and thought beforehand.  However you define "force", I think it should include the ideas of threatening physical harm to, withholding food from, and humiliating the intended victim.

 

Mat never engages those thoughts, rather he constantly complains about the things Tylin does.  Yet his complaints are always about superficial stuff about what she makes him wear as opposed to violations of his body.  Again, I do not see him as a victim profile here suffering from SS.

Rand once thought to himself that Mat only complains about the small things, so you know he is really hurting if he bears it silently.  It's not necessarily SS, but a lack of serious complaints doesn't say anything about how Mat actually feels.

 

His thoughts about Tylin's affections seem to be equivalent to a child being forced to eat broccoli and scheming to get out of it as opposed to a man who lives in terror of being preyed upon.

Ok, lets replace the words "eat broccoli" with "have sex".  Then the child is being raped, no?  Even if their attitude toward sex is exactly the same as their attitude toward broccoli.

 

Because I believe that victim reaction to the offense and attitude to the offender is the best way to determine rape, I cannot find this to be rape.
Now you've done a 180 degree turn: now somehow rape doesn't depend on the nature of the sex, but on the reaction of the victim!  I don't know why you think that.  If the victim is very stubborn they might be able to ignore or forget the experience and go on with their life without being emotionally scarred.  Would you tell that person that they weren't raped because they didn't react strongly enough?  What about people who are raped periodically, like many prostitutes, and victims of spousal abuse?  Perhaps they are so used to it they don't react strongly.  A hooker being raped by her pimp probably reacts the same way as Mat.

 

Because rape so often leaves deep emotional scars, we associate rape with such damage.  We also associate laughter with jokes.  If I don't laugh at what you said, does that mean it wasn't a joke?  You can get drunk without blacking out, eat without becoming full, go to school without learning, walk without having a destination, and yes, you can get raped without being damaged emotionally.  Having said all that, Tylin DID cause Mat some emotional problems and distress.

 

Look at Tylin's perspective:

She wants sex with Mat but he plays hard to get.  He isn't giving it up: even though she makes her desires well known, he makes excuses.  She starts to force the issue and locks them in a room together, but he tries to physically take the keys away.  She pulls a knife to stop him.  She backs him up against the bed.  He says "you can't do this to me", but she pulls out another knife and replies "watch and learn".  They have sex.

 

It sure looks like Tylin is a rapist, by which I mean "someone who forces another to have sex".  All the same arguments show up, but from Tylin's perspective it is more obvious that Mat's reaction isn't important.  As far as Tylin knows Mat doesn't want to have sex with her.  That's based on how he acts and what he says.  She knows he doesn't want sex but she forces it to happen.  That is rape as far as I am concerned.  The gender isn't important, neither is the attitude of the victim (although some people would react very strongly against it, others might not react at all, or appear to enjoy it).  Of course, it is also possible that Tylin didn't think that Mat was serious.  She might have thought he was playing, or flirting in some way by avoiding her and saying what he said.  However, it comes down to consent, which Tylin didn't have.  Without consent, it is still rape.  There is no implied consent that I can see.  If you see implied consent in Mat's actions, be careful: if you respond to "you can't do this to me" by pulling a knife, and the victim isn't in the same position as Mat*, you will be going to jail for rape.  I will go out on a limb and say "Tylin is a rapist because of what she did to Mat, and therefore Mat was raped."

 

*I mean he promised to help Elayne's group, which required not killing Tylin or revoking her power.  Also, Tylin is the queen: any charge would be laughed at, and an attempt to physically stop her would get him arrested or killed.

 

This is a book, we see what Mat is actually thinking.  And he actually thinks that he should have done the chasing.  Not he wished she hadn't of done that, or that he feels violated.  If a person had been raped, what would they think?

Mat's thoughts words and actions all indicate that he didn't want to have sex with Tylin.  He doesn't think "I feel violated", but he still indicates that he didn't want to have sex:

She could not mean to . . . It was not decent! It was not possible!

"you can't do this to me"

"It isn’t natural," he burst out, yanking the pipestem from between his teeth. "I’m the one who’s supposed to do the chasing!"

Had Tylin been a tavern maid who smiled the right way, he might have tried his luck—well, if the tavern maid lacked a son who liked poking holes in people.

He nearly wept again. He gave women presents. The world was standing on its head! Piglet? Oh, Light!

All of those quotes indicate that he didn't want to have sex with Tylin.  Mat was forced into unwanted sex: he was raped.  What else would you call it?

 

Also notice: "he nearly wept again".  Tylin made him cry!

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I never found Tom and Jerry all that funny and the fact there is no real death in that doesn't lend to the reality of Murder. I did enjoy the die hard movie but not once did I laugh at one of the "bad guys" getting killed. I suppose you found the Saw movies amusing as well?

 

I've been a bit on the fence here not sure what to think but now I think I am sure that RJ did NOT want one his main characters being raped as something to LAUGH at. If Mat was Raped it isn't supposed to be funny.

 

With the example of Loony Toons, it barely counts since no one ever dies, there are no consquences thus the whole thing is just fake. Sure they want you to laugh and be amused by it but I just didn't find it funny.

 

As for Unreal Tournament I was too bored with it to find anything funny about that game.

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I never found Tom and Jerry all that funny and the fact there is no real death in that doesn't lend to the reality of Murder. I did enjoy the die hard movie but not once did I laugh at one of the "bad guys" getting killed. I suppose you found the Saw movies amusing as well?

No, I didn't even watch them.  Those murders are supposed to be disturbing, not funny.  There is a huge difference between the fictional murder in "Tom and Jerry" and the fictional murder in "Saw", and it isn't just the fact that Tom recovers every time.  We are straying from the point I was trying to make by bringing up "comic murder" - it exists, and there is no reason why "comic rape" can't also exist.  However this is a separate issue.  Whether or not you think the scene is funny, you haven't given any reason to believe that:

 

Mat wanted to have sex with Tylin

Mat unintentionally gave consent to Tylin

Tylin didn't know Mat's position

Mat could have avoided the situation without getting in serious trouble and/or damning the world to burn in eternal summer.

Tylin would have stopped if Mat clarified his position

Tylin cared if Mat really wanted to have sex or not

Tylin asked Mat for sex and listened to his answer

Tylin and Mat had an understanding that they would behave the way they did.

 

On the other hand, the text gives plenty of evidence that Mat DIDN'T want to have sex with Tylin, and that Tylin knew, and that she made it happen anyway.  Again I ask, what do you call that if not rape?

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I've been a bit on the fence here not sure what to think but now I think I am sure that RJ did NOT want one his main characters being raped as something to LAUGH at. If Mat was Raped it isn't supposed to be funny.

Perhaps it's for the hypocratic or non-attentive to laugh at, until they learn better, for how could they until they are shown their faults. This same thing happens in so many issues, you can look at many comedies and suddenly not find them amusing when you think on matters. Rape of course is a fairly important matter, akin to slavery, which will mean it belongs to the WoT.

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About rape being funny: I would like to say that I think that rape is a very serious issue, I have sympathy for all rape victims, and I hope you don't think I am making fun of what happened to them because I am not.

 

Almost everything we laugh at involves someone else coming to harm.  When the harm isn't great or is fictional we often laugh.  In this way, things can be very serious in some contexts, and hilarious in others.  Murder and rape are two things that are taken very seriously, but there are times when the concepts are funny or amusing.  I gave some examples of both already.  How about Sublime's "Date Rape" for another: "I can't take pity on men of his kind even though he now takes in in the behind".  That is not supposed to be a serious lyric.  How many stories end with the bad guy being sent to prison and the detective says something like what is implied in the lyric?  The movie "Wag the Dog" has a scene where rape is joked about.  Another movie with many jokes about rape is "Let's Go to Prison".

 

Jokes can be tasteless.  I tend to think that words are just words, although I avoid using racial slurs, and I only curse around people who don't mind.  Even so, I don't care if people around me do.  I just accept that they were brought up being told it way okay to say those things.  I only judge people when I get a better understanding of their personality.  If their racy joke is innocent and doesn't stem from any real bias or bigotry, then I don't care how tasteless it is.  On the other hand, I won't deal with a bigot no matter how polite they are.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that you shouldn't judge someone for laughing at something, even if it is technically a bad thing like rape, violence, murder, defamation, or something like that.  It is not inattentive, hypocritical, or a fault, to laugh at such things.

 

A close friend of mine lost his mother to cancer when we were in highschool.  Do you think I would make "yo mamma" jokes to him?  I wouldn't, because that isn't funny.  Rape is funny much less often than "yo mamma" jokes are (and that's not saying much), but they both have the potential to be.

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Oh, I missed you replying to this, did not look at the thread closely enough.

Number 2 is irrelevant. What a person thinks about the sex afterwards is totally irrelevant.

This is a point to which, I cannot agree.  What a person says they think may be lies, what they actually think is well, what they think.  This is a book, we see what Mat is actually thinking.  And he actually thinks that he should have done the chasing.  Not he wished she hadn't of done that, or that he feels violated.  If a person had been raped, what would they think?

That would depend of the person. Remember, Mat has already been through some quite extraordinary events. To prove that a raped person need not fit the stereotype, especially if he is trained mentally, intentionally or non-intentionally, here is a relevent quote from the Dalai lama:

 

Question: Is this what keeps you from being overwhelmed when you see the suffering of the six million Tibetans, who on one level, you are responsible for?

Answer: My motivation is directed towards all sentient beings. There is no question, though, that on a second level, I am directed towards helping Tibetan. If a problem is fixable, if a situation is such that you can do something about it, then there is no need to worry. If it's not fixable, then there is no help in worrying. There is no benefit in worrying whatsoever.

 

(Follow up question)

 

Question: A lot of people say this, but few really live by it. Did you always feel this way, or did you have to learn it?

Answer: It is developed from inner practice. From a broader perspective, there will always be suffering. On one level, you are bound to meet with the effects of the unfavorable actions you yourself have previously committed in body, speech or mind. Then also, your very own nature is that of suffering. There's not just one factor figuring into my attitude, but many different ones. From the point of view of the actual entity producing the suffering, as I have said, if it is fixable, then there is no need to worry. If not, there is no benefit to worrying. From the point of view of the cause, suffering is based on past unfavorable actions accumulated by oneself and no other. These karmas are not wasted. They will bear their fruit. One will not meet with the effects of actions that one has not done oneself. Finally, from the viewpoint of the nature of suffering itself, the aggregates of the mind and body have as their actual nature, suffering. They serve as a basis for suffering. As long as you have them you are susceptible to suffering. From a deep point of view, while we don't have our independence and are living in someone else's country, we have a certain type of suffering, but when we return to Tibet and gain our independence, then there will be other types of suffering. So, this is just the way it is. You might think that I'm pessimistic, but I am not. This is how, through Buddhist teaching and advice, we handle situations. When fifty thousand people in the Shakya clan were killed one day, Shakyamuni Buddha, their clansman, didn't suffer at all. He was leaning against a tree, and he was saying, I am a little sad today because fifty thousand of my clansmen were killed? But he, himself, remained unaffected. Like that, you see (laughter). This was the cause and effect of their own karma. There was nothing he could do about it. These sorts of thoughts make me stronger; more active. It is not at all a case of losing one's strength of mind or will in the face of the pervasive nature of suffering.

Shakyamuni Buddha would not have suffered from a rape, and a rapist should have escaped justice because of this?

On number 1, forcing Mat to the bed with the knife-- and no there is no reason for him to risk his life to avoid the sex, unlike dying even rape can be lived through-- would be enough, but he said he didn't have time for her, and in the bedroom where she forced him he said she could not do that to him. Then she proceeded to cut off his clothes with the knife.

If we didn't know anything about Mat and his capabilities, we would have to have a discussion involving generalities.  We all know Mat, have been watching him do things, react to situations, and know how he feels about things.  We have seen him, time and again say whatever he thought regardless of to whom he was speaking.  We know he has quick hands and we know that without a knife directly at his throat, he could disarm Tylin with ease.  And "I don't have time" is hardly a refusal.  Did he really, given his view of nobles, his experience with nobles, think that a queen is overly concerned about whether he is busy?  Mat is a master of making up excuses, given all the time that he has had since the moment he met her, he couldn't think of one thing to tell Tylin that would get her off is back?  To ignore these facts, to ignore who and what Mat is, is from my point of view, not the discussion.  The only point I want to make is that Mat was not raped by Tylin on this page of this book.  We have seen Mat time and again, try to fight the Pattern, how am I expected to believe that he'd fight his own destiny, but rather passively allow himself to be raped?

But we have different opinions on Mat. I get the feeling you see him as more reckless, less governed as I. I think he is very much governed by his sense of duty, though it is different from that of those around him. I would be very careful telling to rape victims in general that they should have resisted harder. Etc, etc.... Mat has a very well made up front, this does not tell you what he thinks. Not that that is so rare. I think in many situations, people stick to their facedes or fronts or whatever the most tightly, they will not allow you to see their pain, often they will not allow themselves to feel it because it is more than they can handle.

 

You are to believe this last because Mat's hands are tied, there is nothing for him to do to resist Tylin.

On the other, I did find Tylin also an interesting character, but her sinister side certainly comes through. She would have done better had Mat left when he meant to with the Aes Sedai, but later she succumbed to outright abuse even in Ebou Dari terms.

She got worse for two reasons, the Seanchan envaded and put her in a bad mood, and Mat thought he'd be funny and dice with her for forfeits.  After Mat had a turn being in charge, she took his dice and redoubled her efforts of trying to embarass him back.  I didn't think that was sinister, I thought it was Mat being Mat and making a situation more uncomfortable for himself.

Many rapists are in a bad mood too, infact as many people are snappish when in a bad mood, some people commit crimes when in a bad mood. That doesn't change how crimes are defined, that rape is forcing someone to have sex with you against their will.

 

I thought Mat was dealing with his current situation, and avoiding crying over it as best he could since that would really give the Shadow the win.

HE expressed his indignation about being chased and everyone knowing he was being chased. The real sorrow he exhibits at learning that Tylen was murdered is an indication of his true feelings. At best a victim of rape would exhibit torn feelings upon hearing that his/her rapest was killed. Even the most forgiving person would harbor some feeling that the rapest got what he/she deserved. In the case of Mat all he thinks about is that Tylen was killed because of him. That is not the mindset of a rape victim but of a lover.

And that would still not change the fact that the first time was initiated against Mat's will, and later Tylin simply abused him. I would remind you that damane also truly learn to appreciate their proper places in regard to suldam, they truly do many of them, yet a person can get used to much.

I agree with CUBAREY.  Mat was not completely isolated, controlled and abused.  He had Thom and Juilin and Vanin and Olver and two serving men and some redarms.  He leaves the Palace to makeout with Aludra and talk to Luca.  There is no reason to believe that Mat is suffering from some damaged psychy that would make him like his rapist.  Also the damane don't like their captors, they grow to love them and kiss their hands like a dog, once you break someone, they are broken, I doubt there are degrees to it.

It isn't necessary to suffer from the abuse to have been raped. What happens later is sexual abuse. It is abuse what Graendal does to her captives, sexsual abuse when she uses them as sex toys, and rape when she compels someone to have sex with them. None of them show any adverse effects at all.

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<(^-^)>, yea it's not always so serious. As long as you understand the issues, it can be plenty of funny, even, I think black comedies fully have their right to exist. It's just a relief. Understanding things doesn't have to mean all serious after all. Just like a late Mozart symphony can be all lightness on the surface, but full drama beneath, so can difficult things in life have a humour despite even tragedy.

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We know that Mat was unwilling, that the sex was unwanted (the first time).  That should be all that matters, according to your definition.

 

Actually we do not know that was unwilling to engage in the act of having sex. All we know is that he objected to being chased, having everyone know that he was being chased, and that he was made to wear a pink suit of clothes. That is what his PO's mention him as objecting to. That he objected to the actual sex is your subjective belief based on his objecting to the surrounding chase.

 

It's merely your perspective. Now could i be wrong, of course but this would mean that RJ was intentionlly making fun of an actual rape instead of showing that Mat was mad about being treated like he treats women (Mat is not a rapest but he does chase women and treats some as sexual objects, thus he is chagrined not at being forced to have sex but because the shoe is on the other shoe as is being treated a bit like meat in a butcher shop).

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To Kirby

First off, we can all agree on a definition of rape, i.e. forced unwilling intercourse, but no one can agree on an objectivecriteria that makes the intercourse willing or unwilling, in that you can't look at the use of ropes, knives or other as proving someone to did NOT want sex.  Just as you can't look at the fact they it is a married couple who have had sex willingly as a criteria for deciding if another interaction is rape or not.  I apologize, those terms are perhaps terms of art to me and the difference is very clear, I can see however you thought I was saying two things. 

 

Why do you think it is so hard to prove someone was raped?  You have to convince twelve people of a state of mind, you can't get out a statute book and find definitions like "involving weapons use" or "were ropes involved" or "intercourse is deemed "forced" if a knife was used".  Doesn't exist.  Those things can all be indicative of a rape, but they do not prove rape.  The burden of the state always turns on mental states of offender (implied through their actions) and victim (through their testimony). 

 

Ever see a rape trial without the victim testifying?  Won't happen.  Even if you have the whole thing on tape, and you have some guy jumping out of the bushes wearing a mask throwing a girl down and starting intercourse, a defense counsel will point that some people like kinky weird games to spice up their sex life and have these fantasies of dominant strangers and his client was engaged in a deviant foreplay and there is no evidence to show beyond a reasonable doubt that the victim wasn't perfectly aware and wanted it.  AND HE'LL WIN.  Yo have to show victim mental state.  THAT is the key.  So let's look at Matrim Cauthon's mental state, which strangely enough because it is a book we know all about.

 

By Kirby

Now you've done a 180 degree turn: now somehow rape doesn't depend on the nature of the sex, but on the reaction of the victim!  I don't know why you think that.  If the victim is very stubborn they might be able to ignore or forget the experience and go on with their life without being emotionally scarred.  Would you tell that person that they weren't raped because they didn't react strongly enough?  What about people who are raped periodically, like many prostitutes, and victims of spousal abuse?  Perhaps they are so used to it they don't react strongly.  A hooker being raped by her pimp probably reacts the same way as Mat.

 

I am afraid you must never have worked with anyone who has suffered rape trauma.  I do so almost every day.  For the people who you think just stubbornly walk on and try to ignore it, two words:  Hollywood invention.  Even the toughest women I've worked with who tried to just forget it spend night after night dwelling on it, even as they try to force it away it creeps back and haunts them.  Never met a woman who said "I just buried it, forgot about it, tried to move on."  Doesn't happen.  You know someone who did you're probably acquainted with a sociopath, general only people with a chemical imbalance can so effectively isolate feelings from actions.  It's the same way they can pass lie-detector tests.

Here are the hallmarks of rape (by the way, these include prostitutes, they never "get used to it" just so you know, it always leaves scars):  Mistrust, shattered confidence and self-worth, fear of the offending sex, fear of being alone with offending sex, inability to form healthy relationships, self-inflicted harm (cutting or suicide attempts), extreme pessimism and negativity in every venture (they give up before they start most difficult tasks), fear of/overwhelming pull towards the abuser, sleeplessness, PTSD recall (a familiar trigger, like a piece of clothing, brings incident to recall), uncontrolled weeping and anger, abuse of other family members (it often manifests itself this way), isolation, shame and self-blame for the act ("I shouldn't have been jogging so late ..."), desperation bargaining (client will offer sex for drugs/hypnotism to block out the incident), recurring nightmares.  In short, they are a wreck.

 

See a real rape victim and compare it to Mat's statements and actions.  They do not say things like "It isn't right, it isn't decent!" or "I'm supposed to be doing the chasing."  The say things like "I wish I was dead, please just kill me."  They do not have their bodies invaded against their will and then command fierce armies in battle, like Mat.  They do not launch into a healthy relationship with another person, like Mat does with Tuon.  They do not order similar profile persons around, like Mat does with the beautiful, powerful and dangerous Aes Sedai later.  Look no further to the scene where Mat is confronted by Elayne and Nyneave about what is going on with him and Tylin.  If it is rape, Mat could have realistically either 1) denied anything was going on to the bitter end and ran away, or 2) begged them to stop Tylin and protect him, or 3) just started weeping uncontrollably and howl or 4) back into a corner and flinch when they came near and say he'll kill himself before he goes back.  Victims confronted about the abuse don't say (paraphrasing) "Hey, she started it, not me!" 

 

I made a comparison that Mat's attitude is like a kid who doesn't want to eat broccoli.  You said:

Ok, lets replace the words "eat broccoli" with "have sex".  Then the child is being raped, no?  Even if their attitude toward sex is exactly the same as their attitude toward broccoli.

 

Sir or Madam, I have heard children asking for no broccoli, and I have heard recordings of children begging Daddy or Mommy not to hurt them again.  LET ME END THIS IN YOUR MIND ONCE AND FOR ALL.  THERE IS NO SIMILARITY!  CHILDREN DO NOT JUST "PREFER" TO NOT BE VIOLATED AND RAPED!  There never has been or will be a child who can ask to not eat her vegetables with same attitude as begging Daddy to not touch her there again (unless she is a sociopath).  It would be like saying a person could have the same attitude to having their eye gouged out with knife has having a blister lanced.  IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.  In fact, if a teenage girl came in to my office and said her dad abused her and showed the same attitude of a girl who was forced to eat healthy food, I would be more likely to assume she was filing a false claim to destroy her father's reputation (oh yes, that happens).

 

I apologize for the length of this post, but your response leads me to believe you are under a lot of misinformation about what rape does to people.  No one ever gets used to it even if they are repeat victim, it always scars.  No treats it like its no big deal, like a dietary preference.  No one ever shrugs it off out of "stubbornness."  Rape has lasting horrors for the victim every time.  Those horrors are not present in Mat, so no, I do not think he was raped.

 

Robert Jordan could have made this rape, if this was rape going on.  He understands victim profiles.  Look at Egwene, her reaction to the Seanchan leashing is entirely consistent with an abused, from her recurring nightmares and fears to her desperation to never be helpless again.  He could have written Mat as suffering as a rape victim if was being repeatedly raped in Tylin's chambers.  Unless Mat is a sociopath he was not raped. 

 

Last point:

Without consent, it is still rape.  There is no implied consent that I can see.  If you see implied consent in Mat's actions, be careful: if you respond to "you can't do this to me" by pulling a knife, and the victim isn't in the same position as Mat*, you will be going to jail for rape.

If my victim showed up at my trial and said "well, it seemed a little improper at the time but after I lay there for hours holding each other and pleasuring each other but I just kept thinking it was my job to do the chasing" I'm not going to jail for anything.  If my victim showed up and said "I said no but he pulled a knife on me and I just was in shock, numb and I submitted because I was so scared and" starts crying and hitting the witness stand, then yeah I'm going to jail. 

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...but no one can agree on an objective criteria that makes the intercourse willing or unwilling

The criteria that makes the sex willing or unwilling is whether the people having sex are willing at the time.  We know that Mat was unwilling.

 

I apologize, those terms are perhaps terms of art to me and the difference is very clear, I can see however you thought I was saying two things.

Ok I see.

 

Ever see a rape trial without the victim testifying?  Won't happen.

How do you think they convict rapists who murder their victims?  I assure you that they do not leave out the rape charges.  There are other ways to prove that the victim was unwilling than to get direct testimony.

 

Yo have to show victim mental state.  THAT is the key.  So let's look at Matrim Cauthon's mental state, which strangely enough because it is a book we know all about.

I agree that the mental state of the victim is important in two respects: it is related to their willingness to have sex, and their distress is a form of proof that they were hurt.  The reaction of the victim is what I think is separate from the rape.

 

I am afraid you must never have worked with anyone who has suffered rape trauma.  I do so almost every day.

I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you are a rape counselor you should already know that many many rapes go unreported, and the victims DO bear it without revealing anything.  I am happy to hear that you help rape victims, but you have not met them all.  I doubt you've met anyone in Mat's situation.

 

For the people who you think just stubbornly walk on and try to ignore it, two words:  Hollywood invention.

For the Mat who I think just stubbornly walks on and tries to ignore it, three words: Robert Jordan's invention.

See what I did there?

 

See a real rape victim and compare it to Mat's statements and actions.  They do not say things like "It isn't right, it isn't decent!" or "I'm supposed to be doing the chasing."  The say things like "I wish I was dead, please just kill me."  They do not have their bodies invaded against their will and then command fierce armies in battle, like Mat.  They do not launch into a healthy relationship with another person, like Mat does with Tuon.  They do not order similar profile persons around, like Mat does with the beautiful, powerful and dangerous Aes Sedai later.

I agree that most real rape victims do not command fierce armies in battle.  One fictional rape victim does: Mat Cauthon.  In fiction a rape victim reacts however the author pleases.

 

Sir or Madam, I have heard children asking for no broccoli, and I have heard recordings of children begging Daddy or Mommy not to hurt them again.  LET ME END THIS IN YOUR MIND ONCE AND FOR ALL.  THERE IS NO SIMILARITY!  CHILDREN DO NOT JUST "PREFER" TO NOT BE VIOLATED AND RAPED!  There never has been or will be a child who can ask to not eat her vegetables with same attitude as begging Daddy to not touch her there again (unless she is a sociopath).

I don't know what you thought I said, but I don't think that abusing children is similar to making them eat vegetables.  I also don't think that children only "prefer" not to be raped: I am well aware that the emotion is much stronger.  However, we are talking about fiction.  If I invent a fictional girl who is forced to have sex against her will but only gets mildly upset about it, will you say she wasn't raped?

 

It would be like saying a person could have the same attitude to having their eye gouged out with knife has having a blister lanced.  IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.  In fact, if a teenage girl came in to my office and said her dad abused her and showed the same attitude of a girl who was forced to eat healthy food, I would be more likely to assume she was filing a false claim to destroy her father's reputation (oh yes, that happens).

Are you saying that if a child came to you and calmly reported being raped, you would call them a liar?  I didn't think so.  You might be suspicious of their attitude, but if they can prove it happened who are you to judge them?

 

I apologize for the length of this post, but your response leads me to believe you are under a lot of misinformation about what rape does to people.  No one ever gets used to it even if they are repeat victim, it always scars.  No treats it like its no big deal, like a dietary preference.  No one ever shrugs it off out of "stubbornness."  Rape has lasting horrors for the victim every time.  Those horrors are not present in Mat, so no, I do not think he was raped.

I think that you attach all of this baggage to the word rape because (especially from your perspective) most rapes are terribly scarring experiences.  A rape victim needs to suffer because you have never seen one NOT suffer.  Even if someone does not suffer they can still be the victim of forced sex.  However much you want to reserve the word rape for people who are terribly scarred, it applies to everyone who is forced to have sex against their will no matter the reaction.

 

Robert Jordan could have made this rape, if this was rape going on.  He understands victim profiles.  Look at Egwene, her reaction to the Seanchan leashing is entirely consistent with an abused, from her recurring nightmares and fears to her desperation to never be helpless again.  He could have written Mat as suffering as a rape victim if was being repeatedly raped in Tylin's chambers.  Unless Mat is a sociopath he was not raped.

I would like to provide an example with shows the flaw in your reasoning:

If a woman has sex in the dark with her husband, she is not being raped.  If someone takes her husband's place without her knowing, she is being raped.  However, according to your definition of rape, the woman is not being raped until she turns on the lights and sees that it isn't her husband!  If she doesn't turn on the lights then she was never raped!  I can't accept that.

 

What do we call it when someone is forced to have sex against their will but they don't react like a typical rape victim?  We still call it rape.  The victim might be atypical but the actions still fall under the category of rape.

 

If my victim showed up at my trial and said "well, it seemed a little improper at the time but after I lay there for hours holding each other and pleasuring each other but I just kept thinking it was my job to do the chasing" I'm not going to jail for anything.

Why would you be in court if the victim didn't want to convict you?  We're talking about a situation in which Mat is able to stop the abuse.

 

Actually we do not know that was unwilling to engage in the act of having sex. All we know is that he objected to being chased, having everyone know that he was being chased, and that he was made to wear a pink suit of clothes. That is what his PO's mention him as objecting to. That he objected to the actual sex is your subjective belief based on his objecting to the surrounding chase.
Mat didn't want to have sex or Tylin wouldn't have had to lock the door and protect the keys with a knife.  He didn't want to have sex or he would have gone for it right away!  This is Mat we're talking about.  He didn't want to have sex because she is a noble, and Mat avoids snooty nobles.  He didn't want to have sex or he wouldn't have said "you can't do this to me".  He didn't want to have sex or he wouldn't have nearly starved himself.  He wouldn't have thought "it isn't possible!".  Those are some of the reasons why I think Mat didn't want to have sex.  Are there any reasons why you think he did?  Reasons that are actually in the book?

 

It's merely your perspective. Now could i be wrong, of course but this would mean that RJ was intentionlly making fun of an actual rape instead of showing that Mat was mad about being treated like he treats women.

Mat does not chase women the way Tylin chases him: he makes it clear in one of his POVs that he never expects anything but a smile from women, and will not force a woman to have sex.  Tylin does force Mat to have sex.  That is a HUGE difference.

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Why would you be in court if the victim didn't want to convict you?  We're talking about a situation in which Mat is able to stop the abuse.

Only in one situation would I be in court with a victim that didn't want to prosecute, if there was at least more than one victim and the prosecution was trying to establish a pattern they may subpoena a  victim who didn't want to press charges.  And if the victim didn't see the problem with what I did = no rape charges.

 

All women, even the ones who refuse to come to us, have these scars and baggage.  I'm sorry, you cannot convince me otherwise.  It's not the fact that they came to me that they developed these issues. The act of being raped creates them.  It does not do it sometimes and others, there is no less serious rape.

 

Finally, RJ wrote these characters to be realistic.  Mat does not deal with a realistic profile as a victim of rape.  He's not meant to be an invention, he's fiction but he's supposed to be believable.  All of RJ's other characters go through realistic emotional baggage in response to the stressors placed on them.  Mat could not just shrug off rape, unless he is not to be considered a realistic character.

 

As to why you can prove rape charges in a murder case, when you don't have a victim to speak for theirself present for a good reason (like they're dead) the defense has a tough time creating reasonable doubt.  But if there is a person who can say "He raped me and ruined my life" and we don't get them out there to say it, case over.  Reasonable doubt.

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To seasnake

 

Well said.  

 

Those who believe that Mat was raped

 

RJ wrote realistic characters.  That is why these discussions are possible.  If the characters reactions and personalities were not realistic, it would be very hard for us to become as involved as we all have.  Can anyone point to any other instance in this book where a character involved in a horrible event did not have the reaction that is in line with who they have been portrayed?  I cannot find one. 

 

What we know of Mat from reading his points of view and others' points of view that are relevant:

 

He is:  fast

        a capable fighter

        strong

        stubborn

        smart

        impatient

        impulsive

        a gambler

He:    has a temper

        dislikes nobles

        says what he wants to regardless of consequences

        has faced death on numerous occasions

        has courage to the point of stupidity

        has taken risk after risk

        has a policy of keeping promises       

 

And yet for the sake of this discussion all of this is being ignored except for the promise keeping.

 

From what is being said, Mat is unable to safely disarm a middle aged woman, for fear of his life; is unable to convey his desires in a tactful manner; would put up with something when he did not want to; would think through the consequences of what he did and said farther than a few minutes, while annoyed; would care if he ticked off a queen; and would be afraid to gamble or take a pretty good bet.  All for the sake of a promise, that would not be broken?  Mat never told Nynaeve and Elayne that he would have sex with the queen.  And Tylin would have let Mat stay in the palace no matter what he did or said, short of killing her.  Because of Nynaeve and Elayne and the seven other Aes Sedai.  So now he's too dumb to even know this?

 

How is any of that in line with what we know to be true of Mat?  Who is this person that is being discussed?  Interepreted as a rape, the scene is not in line with who we know Mat to be.  Interpreted as Mat being shocked about being come on to by a pushy woman, it is directly in line with what we know of Mat.

So we have two choices:

1 RJ forgot who Mat was, for three whole books, and then remembered and started writing him as who he was for the first 6 books.

or

2 RJ wrote Mat, as the Mat we know and love, and this scene is being misinterpreted.

 

With editors and proofreaders and so on, to have a character be so out of character for 3 books, and no one noticing, is a bit of a stretch as far as I'm concerned.

 

Mat was not raped. 

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I'll add in some further thoughts, though I am getting the feeling I will soon be repeating myself on the major points and that is usually counter productive in a good discussion. This is a really a good thread in scope I think, and it evolved to that from a fairly minor issue. On that issue I guess one must mention that physically Egwene must still be virgin, her being a woman, but same-sex sex must count on a different level, if it is relevant. It is an intriguing thought that not only should faraway-sex not count, but neither should same-sex sex... Anyway, there is enough indications in Egwene's thought on Chesa showing where her loyalties lay and regretting she was not there to warm her blankets that show Egwene is not completely innocent. And now I got distracted from the issue at hand, if I still remember what I was about to say...

 

Yes, I think what is important is not whether a modern court, American or in some other country, might convict Tylin, but whether Mat was morally raped. After all, law has nothing to do with morality, and in this case relevant were Ebou Dari laws. I do think Tylin was less restricted than people are nowadays.

 

In judging a character realistic, there is also the matter of whose reality they should follow. People very rarely get a chance to peak in other people's thoughts, so to some extent they must form their view of the world by extending their own thoughts on others, and secondly to expect the people they meet and get to know to make up a group that is representative of the whole humanity. In the case of rape victims, or with any diseases, as long as they are asymptotic, very little can probably be known of them, while even asymptotic diseases can have adverse effects on a person on the long run, though sometimes it might be possible to treat them. Anyway, I am quite sure that in Ebou Dar so bad things happen to people, if not daily then often enough, that a rape does not have such effects as it would now. "At night a candle's bright than the sun," as they say. I will emphasise that this is not to belittle the effects of rape, only I am quite aware of many terrible things in the world, and many things that could be better on many levels; on the other hand one should not expect life should come without difficulties, it is often the difficulties that help shape us into who we are. But now I am straying from the matter at hand.

 

Anyway, the important issue of artistic freedom, here as the last word from me is a relevant poem translated, at least I think it so though I have not read the reference. (I thought I might put that here since the thread has been interesting, broad in the scope of matters discussed, there is relative versus objective morality, the issue of requirement for proof, many things.) A fantasy writer would seriously handicap himself, I think, if he were to take the stance that serious matters are always handled seriously with an ever-stern face, and all else is light past-time and in fact not to be taken seriously.

Ei yhtäkään kvartettoa(Not a Single Quartet)

 

A bird that is loved in such a way

that it is not allowed to go;

it has a tendon cut from its wings

so that it cannot fly.

What is thought the purpose of a bird,

to stay shivering and dreading the night,

which only fends for its own teeth?

A lot of things one in fact should not have known:

the circle draws tighter, and tighter...

And I begin to understand Eliot's conversion.

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Mat's thoughts words and actions all indicate that he didn't want to have sex with Tylin.  He doesn't think "I feel violated", but he still indicates that he didn't want to have sex:

She could not mean to . . . It was not decent! It was not possible!

"you can't do this to me"

"It isn’t natural," he burst out, yanking the pipestem from between his teeth. "I’m the one who’s supposed to do the chasing!"

Had Tylin been a tavern maid who smiled the right way, he might have tried his luck—well, if the tavern maid lacked a son who liked poking holes in people.

He nearly wept again. He gave women presents. The world was standing on its head! Piglet? Oh, Light!

All of those quotes indicate that he didn't want to have sex with Tylin. Mat was forced into unwanted sex: he was raped. What else would you call it?

That is your interpretation of it. Take, for example, "I'm the one who's supposed to do the chasing." That is not saying he doesn't want to have sex with Tylin. It could be interpreted that way, or it could be seen as him being uncomfortable with his position as the pursued rather than the pursuer. Which wouldn't mean the sex was non-consensual. The last quote is him objecting to being given presents, not to sex. "The world was standing on its head!" He is being treated how he usually treats women. "If Tylin had been a tavern maid..." shows that is her position (and her son) that convinced him not to pursue her, but he is still interested. It's all open to interpretation, all those quotes. Look at them one way, and Mat us raped. Look at them another and Mat's problem is that she is doing to him what he feels he should be doing to her - which does not equal a lack of consent.

 

On the other hand, the text gives plenty of evidence that Mat DIDN'T want to have sex with Tylin, and that Tylin knew, and that she made it happen anyway.  Again I ask, what do you call that if not rape?
Different interpretation.

 

It is abuse what Graendal does to her captives, sexsual abuse when she uses them as sex toys, and rape when she compels someone to have sex with them. None of them show any adverse effects at all.
Besides the fact she has pretty much destroyed their minds with compulsion overdoses, of course. Isn't that enough?

 

The criteria that makes the sex willing or unwilling is whether the people having sex are willing at the time. We know I believe that Mat was unwilling.
Corrected for you.

 

Mat didn't want to have sex or Tylin wouldn't have had to lock the door and protect the keys with a knife.
In your opinion.
He didn't want to have sex or he would have gone for it right away!
In your opinion.
He didn't want to have sex or he wouldn't have said "you can't do this to me".
In your opinion.
He wouldn't have thought "it isn't possible!".
In your opinion.
Reasons that are actually in the book?
That he never says no or objects to the sex, and shows no signs of trauma would be the reasons put forward in this thread repeatedly. It just comes down to how you interpret what is in the books.
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On Chese, that was something that struck me on my last reread. I could be wrong, but I think it is something you don't notice until you notice it, and after you do it seems obvious. I just got the impression, and of course I cannot even begin to prove it was so since Egwene only vaguely alluded to it.

 

It is abuse what Graendal does to her captives, sexsual abuse when she uses them as sex toys, and rape when she compels someone to have sex with them. None of them show any adverse effects at all.

Besides the fact she has pretty much destroyed their minds with compulsion overdoses, of course. Isn't that enough?

Well yes, there are other crimes, and bad enough those. But I think eg a violent rape is a combination of rape and physical abuse, so it is possible to separate the partial crimes even though they make a whole. Such a thing is atrocious, but just the physical abuse is bad enough.

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That is your interpretation of it. Take, for example, "I'm the one who's supposed to do the chasing." That is not saying he doesn't want to have sex with Tylin. It could be interpreted that way, or it could be seen as him being uncomfortable with his position as the pursued rather than the pursuer. Which wouldn't mean the sex was non-consensual. The last quote is him objecting to being given presents, not to sex. "The world was standing on its head!" He is being treated how he usually treats women. "If Tylin had been a tavern maid..." shows that is her position (and her son) that convinced him not to pursue her, but he is still interested. It's all open to interpretation, all those quotes. Look at them one way, and Mat us raped. Look at them another and Mat's problem is that she is doing to him what he feels he should be doing to her - which does not equal a lack of consent.

You are correct that it is only an interpretation, my idea that Mat was unwilling.  However, there is definitely a lack of consent in the text.  He never gives consent to Tylin that we see.  RJ makes Mat's displeasure about the whole situation obvious.  If he doesn't give consent and is unhappy about what is happening, I think we should interpret that as unwilling.  Not just unwilling to have sex, but unwilling to be Tylin's pet at all.

 

If Mat wanted to have sex with Tylin then why didn't he ever give consent or ask to have sex?

 

He didn't want to have sex or he wouldn't have said "you can't do this to me".

In your opinion.

No, there is much more behind that statement.  There is no reason for Mat to say "you can't do this to me", except that he doesn't want Tylin to do what she is doing to him, which includes sex.  Maybe "this" also includes his humiliation, and the strangeness of being chased by a woman, and the embarrassing clothes.  Even if it doesn't, "this" definitely includes the sex.

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Especially as RAW pointed out even if RJ said something to the effect of him being or not being raped. Which is what I figured would be the answer.

 

As for the warming blankets I think that's about using heated bricks or pans to make the blankets warm when Egwene gets into bed. She is the Amrlyn afterall now.

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I stayed away for a day, but I just want to point out one thing.  It was common practice for nobles and rich to have their beds warmed before they went to bed, and it referred to the use of heating instruments.  Remember in Pirates of the Caribbean how the maid warmed the bed with pan with coals?  Similar ideas, not everything is a sex reference.

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We've been going in a circle for, what, 13 pages now?  If new points were coming up I could understand the conversation continuing, but it's the same few arguments, again, and again, and again.  I suggest we just agree to disagree, and officially end this discussion.

I will admit that this has been a rather circular discusson, but it is also a good learning experience.  Not only have I learned about others' views on morality, their views on psychology, and how differently the same situation can be viewed by different people, I have learned a lot about posting on discussion boards and have hopefully learned a bit about debating in general.  I wonder how much more I will have to learn before I know how to convince people of my point of view, before I feel like i've spent a couple of weeks on a merry-go-round?  ;D

I've enjoyed it...

If Mat wanted to have sex with Tylin then why didn't he ever give consent or ask to have sex?

Consent?  I thought he didn't bother for the same reason you wouldn't RSVP when you were already at the party.  As for asking for sex, she came on to him the first time they met.  He already knew she was pursuing him.  Besides he had heard about the custom of pretties, wanting to have sex with someone isn't the same thing as going out of his way to be a kept man...

 

No, there is much more behind that statement.  There is no reason for Mat to say "you can't do this to me", except that he doesn't want Tylin to do what she is doing to him, which includes sex.  Maybe "this" also includes his humiliation, and the strangeness of being chased by a woman, and the embarrassing clothes.  Even if it doesn't, "this" definitely includes the sex.

Personally, if I tell someone they can't do something I will mean one of two things:

 

1 They are physically unable to do what they are trying to do.

        i.e. You tell me you are going to eat the moon.  I will say 'You can't do that.'  Meaning "Since the moon is as big as it is and is a rock, there is no way possible for you to eat it."  In this instance, it's not that I care if you eat the moon, it's that from everything I know, you are not capable of eating the moon.

 

OR

 

2 That I know they are going to do it but am somewhat surprised by it. It works for things that the person welcomes just as well as things the peson doesn't want.

          i.e.  Woman say this a lot in romance novels when their lover is doing something they like but are a little uncomfortable with and don't expect.  The follow up is do you want me to stop and the woman says no.  In this instance, the meaning is not that the action is unwanted, it's that it's unexpected.

                And to be fair, I have seen this used by children and criminals who are being punished for doing something wrong.  In these cases, they know the consequences of the crime, but thought they were above whatever rule it was that they broke.  This meaning, this only happens to other people, I am somehow above them and shouldn't have to live with the same consequences.  In this case, it would mean I thought I'd get out of dealing with this thing I don't want this to happen.

 

Tylin is obviously capable of pursuing Mat and taking him to bed, so the first option is out.

The second option.  If we could hear his voice as he said it, there would be less room for question.  Outrage as opposed to surprise.  The sentence where his says it is as follows:

 

"You can't do this to me." he mumbled at her, and if his voice was a touch breathy and shrill, he surely had cause.

 

IMO, "breathy and shrill" are indicative of surprise rather than outrage.  This, coupled with his belief that he should be the chaser, and what I know to be true of Mat (the list I had in my last post) all prompt me to take this scene as not being a rape. 

 

 

Okay, back to Eqwene, I am sure that the maid heated her sheets with a hot brick.  She offers hot bricks to her on a couple of occasions.  Her relationship with her maid came across to me, like a nanny or something, with the don't eat too fast, don't read in the dark stuff.  She reminds me of my Gramma actually.  I didn't think they had a sexual relationship at all.

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