Thom Merrilin

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... your quote is only the opening move of the fight ... so, I guess that there's no proof, but thats definitely not how I read events.  I mean, the fight apparently didn't end with the initial rush you describe.

 

Your assumption going in seems to be, "If the Myrddraal got its sword out, it would have done much worse than wound Thom in the knee."  I don't share that assumption, so I read things differently.

 

Of course ... what you're describing would be the only use of a unique power we've not seen in any other Myrddraal, so, it does seem like a bit of a stretch to me.  My assumption is, Thom is just that bloody good.  I always figured the thing on the knee was just the tiniest of scratches, and that the only reason it gave him a limp was that that it came from a tainted Myrddraal sword.  I picture Thom running just as fast as he can as soon as he thinks the boys are clear, and getting a cut for his trouble on the way out.  The Myrddraal is not going to chase him at that point.

 

But thats not a conclusion I'll go down with the ship to defend, so to speak.

[Charlz Fel]

Your assumption going in seems to be, "If the Myrddraal got its sword out, it would have done much worse than wound Thom in the knee."  I don't share that assumption, so I read things differently.

My assumption is, "if the Myrdraal (or any decent swordsman, for that matter) got his sword into Thom's knee, it would have required deliberate effort not to do more damage than was done."  I'm very far from an expert, so this opinion may be totally bogus, but it is my reaction.

 

The "special powers" are a bit of a stretch, I admit; they are there to explain the blue flashes (for which I have seen no good explanation), but otherwise irrelevant.

 

If you attribute the bad knee to the action of the taint on a sufficiently small scratch, then my argument is not relevant, since I was assuming that the blade itself did the damage (and thus could easily have done more).  I still don't think it works this way--every tainted blade we have seen, once the taint gets into the body, nothing can stop it from spreading except the One Power.  I can't imagine the taint would grow enough to injure Thom's knee and then just stop spontaneously.

[MikeRiley]

Anything can happen in a fight. Don't assume Thom's knee was the target. A glancing blow maybe?

[Elgee]

More likely that damage was done to the bones / cartilage / tendons by a kick or blow to the knee, than a blade. Charlz is right - if the Fade cut Thom with his blade, it wouldn't have just infected the knee - the blood flows through the whole body, not just a localized part of it.

[Luckers]

I think you, and a number of other people in this thread, are underestimating Thom.  That is one bad old man.

 

And why would the Myrddraal hold back?  I can easily understand not chasing after Thom, but why would it go to any effort to deliberately only wound him?  Or am I misreading what you meant?

 

I agree in combination. I do suspect a Myrdraal could probably defeat Thom if it wated too, but Thom could put up a significant fight. The Myrdraal ran off because it did not want Thom, and didn't have the time to kill him becuase of his skill.

 

Same way the Trollocs left Nynaeve alone.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

My assumption is, "if the Myrdraal (or any decent swordsman, for that matter) got his sword into Thom's knee, it would have required deliberate effort not to do more damage than was done."  I'm very far from an expert, so this opinion may be totally bogus, but it is my reaction.

 

Oh, I agree with that completely.  Assuming the blade actually got deep into his knee, Thom was screwed. I just don't that happened, which we already established.

 

More likely that damage was done to the bones / cartilage / tendons by a kick or blow to the knee, than a blade.  Charlz is right - if the Fade cut Thom with his blade, it wouldn't have just infected the knee - the blood flows through the whole body, not just a localized part of it.

 

Um ... localized infections causing localized damage do actually occur in real life ... and the taint isn't an actual bacterial infection, as far as we know, so we don't know exactly how it would spread.

 

But a kick or some other type of blow is certainly an option.  And I need to brush up on exactly what is said about the Myrddraal's tainted weapons.  I'm going to have to poke around on this one (pun intended, HAH) some more.

[Gentled Ben]

when is it stated in clear text that trollocs get those blades as well?

a quote would be nice.

 

unless you find clear proof that there was no Fade present at the time it's possible that the myrdraal was around with the trollocs before Rand met up with Tam again, and that the Myrdraal did the cut.

 

I don't think it is ever clearly stated, but the only forge that is ever mentioned in the Blight is Thakan'dar. If the trolloc blades come from elsewhere, it would make sense that RJ would have included mention of that in the passage where we see the swords being forged at Thankan'dar. I think he would have been specific about only myrddraal sword being forged here, the trolloc blades coming instead from deep in the passes of the Mountains of Dhoom or whatever.

 

There was a myrddraal in Emond's Field, because in addittion to Rand actually seeing him in the opening pages of the book, Narg tells Rand that the myrddraal wants to speak with him. However, if the myrddraal had been present at the farm, why didn't he just deal with Rand directly? Why wasn't the myrddraal right there in the house? Why didn't we have any other mention of the myrddraal at all? We are only told of trollocs busting through the door.

[ROB_88]

 

I don't think it is ever clearly stated, but the only forge that is ever mentioned in the Blight is Thakan'dar. If the trolloc blades come from elsewhere, it would make sense that RJ would have included mention of that in the passage where we see the swords being forged at Thankan'dar. I think he would have been specific about only myrddraal sword being forged here, the trolloc blades coming instead from deep in the passes of the Mountains of Dhoom or whatever.

 

when we get to see in Thakan'dar we also see that myrdraal swords require human sacrifices, and they are dissapointed at the low rate of prisoners.

therefore i think that they can't make enough tainted swords for the trolloc masses but only the myrdraal.

maybe they are created at some other location in thakan'dar a few yards away but not by the same process.

 

There was a myrddraal in Emond's Field, because in addittion to Rand actually seeing him in the opening pages of the book, Narg tells Rand that the myrddraal wants to speak with him. However, if the myrddraal had been present at the farm, why didn't he just deal with Rand directly? Why wasn't the myrddraal right there in the house? Why didn't we have any other mention of the myrddraal at all? We are only told of trollocs busting through the door.

 

maybe he was outside leading the troops instead of doing the dirty work himself as any good squad commander would.

Narg gave me the impression that most trollocs and Myrdraal give up on searching quite quickly when they can't find the victims, and had already moved on to the next target, and Narg was the only one clever enough to stay and wait.

 

i don't have the books with me so when we first see the myrdraal while Rand is walking through the forest, is he going towards or from the house?

[MikeRiley]

On Rand's hike through the forest dragging Tam along behind him, he saw/heard a horse a number of times. I don't recall in which direction the horse went in first.. if it was towards the farm then the fade was with the main attack on the village itself.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

The "special powers" are a bit of a stretch, I admit; they are there to explain the blue flashes (for which I have seen no good explanation), but otherwise irrelevant.

 

We have plenty of examples of swordsman facing myrdraal with briliant flashes of blue light at every blow; so it may have been Thom turning aside the Fade's blade with his knives, or vice versa for that matter.  Point is, there doesn't have to be a special explination for the blue flashes, Jordan has already given us a good explination for that one. 

[Luckers]

when is it stated in clear text that trollocs get those blades as well?

 

"Trolloc weapons are made at forges in the valley called Thakan'dar, on the very slopes of Shayol Ghul itself. Some of them take a taint from that place, a stain of evil in the metal. Those tainted blades make wounds that will not heal unaided, or cause deadly fevers, strange sicknesses that medicines cannot touch. I have soothed your father's pain, but the mark, the taint, is still in him. Left alone, it will grow again, and consume him."

 

[The Eye of the World - chapter 8 - A place of Safety]

[sillyman]

It id be worth remembering that Thom is extremely dexterous and in close with a fade, which is use to fighting at least an arms distance from the enemy, he probably could have cause serious  damage with his shorter and more manoeverable weapons.

[Luckers]

True, and Mat made a comment exactly to that effect in KoD about knifemen against swordsmen.

[ROB_88]

when is it stated in clear text that trollocs get those blades as well?

 

"Trolloc weapons are made at forges in the valley called Thakan'dar, on the very slopes of Shayol Ghul itself. Some of them take a taint from that place, a stain of evil in the metal. Those tainted blades make wounds that will not heal unaided, or cause deadly fevers, strange sicknesses that medicines cannot touch. I have soothed your father's pain, but the mark, the taint, is still in him. Left alone, it will grow again, and consume him."

 

[The Eye of the World - chapter 8 - A place of Safety]

 

oh, alright then

damn, i hate it when i lose an argument

[tjtalbert]

And if you think knives can't work against swords concider the fight outside the Hell in KoD. Mat, Tuon, Selucia and Thom downed near a dozen enemies

 

In fiction maybe, but not in real life (unless you are going to throw the knife, just don't miss).

 

Tim

[lordofsoup]

my only disagreement about the channeling part is the connection between merrilin and merlin.  their very similar and Merlin could use magic and i doubt the name's are coincedences

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

my only disagreement about the channeling part is the connection between merrilin and merlin.  their very similar and Merlin could use magic and i doubt the name's are coincedences

Oh, without a doubt, there's a link to Merlin and Merrilin.

 

However, Thom also talks about how time changes legends and tales. I can't remember who he's speaking to but it essentially goes, "Who knows, maybe I'll be the hero of the tale in the next Age, I'll really be breathing fire instead of "breathing fire"." -Yes, that's paraphrased.

If you attribute the bad knee to the action of the taint on a sufficiently small scratch, then my argument is not relevant, since I was assuming that the blade itself did the damage (and thus could easily have done more).  I still don't think it works this way--every tainted blade we have seen, once the taint gets into the body, nothing can stop it from spreading except the One Power.  I can't imagine the taint would grow enough to injure Thom's knee and then just stop spontaneously.

More likely that damage was done to the bones / cartilage / tendons by a kick or blow to the knee, than a blade. Charlz is right - if the Fade cut Thom with his blade, it wouldn't have just infected the knee - the blood flows through the whole body, not just a localized part of it.

If Thom had been cut by a myrddraal blade, then he’d probably have died. Look at the effect a Trolloc blade had on Tam. Tam’s younger and fitter than Tom, and a Trolloc’s blade appears to be less deadly than that of a myrddrall.

 

I have to go with the kick, or something other than a cut.

Um ... localized infections causing localized damage do actually occur in real life ... and the taint isn't an actual bacterial infection, as far as we know, so we don't know exactly how it would spread.

Yeah… but again, look at the scratch Tam takes…

 

It’s a trolloc’s blade, so it’s not like-for-like, but a swallow cut almost kills him. He got a raging fever and all that entails. And, like before, Tam is younger and fitter than Tom and it’s a trolloc’s blade, not that of a fade.

 

Without the help of an Aes Sedai, I think Thom would have died, had he received the wound from the blade … Given that he’s got a limp, it suggests that he wasn’t Healed, and that therefore, the wound wasn’t caused by a sword. All opinions of course.

However, if the myrddraal had been present at the farm, why didn't he just deal with Rand directly? Why wasn't the myrddraal right there in the house? Why didn't we have any other mention of the myrddraal at all? We are only told of trollocs busting through the door.

maybe he was outside leading the troops instead of doing the dirty work himself as any good squad commander would.

Given that Rand is clearly important (important enough for Narg to speak to in an attempt to get him to surrender) … why would the myrddraal “act like a squad commander”? After all, it’s not like it’d have anticipated that two farmers would put up any major resistance.

Narg gave me the impression that most trollocs and Myrdraal give up on searching quite quickly when they can't find the victims, and had already moved on to the next target, and Narg was the only one clever enough to stay and wait.

Uhhh… Trollocs, sure. Myrddraal? Not so sure.

 

After all, the Trollocs and accompanying Myrddraal chased Rand et al all the way to Camelyn, didn’t they?

 

I don’t believe that the Myrddraal would have left the area after the attack, had it been present. Let’s face it, hunting down two scared farmers in the dark wouldn’t have been too tough, given that Trollocs can hunt by smell…

i don't have the books with me so when we first see the myrdraal while Rand is walking through the forest, is he going towards or from the house?

I don’t have them either, but I believe he’s seen going in either direction, more than once. He’s riding up and down the road.

[Kaznen]

And if you think knives can't work against swords concider the fight outside the Hell in KoD. Mat, Tuon, Selucia and Thom downed near a dozen enemies

 

In fiction maybe, but not in real life (unless you are going to throw the knife, just don't miss).

 

Tim

 

If a knifeman can get inside a swordsman's range it is quit possible to fight somebody like that.  Their are manuals explaning how to do just that.

 

And keep in mind with Thom v Fade that Thom is part James Bond, Geoffry Chaucer, and Cassanova.  People forget that Chaucer and Cassanova were accomplished spies and soldiers as well.

[tjtalbert]

If a knifeman can get inside a swordsman's range it is quit possible to fight somebody like that

 

Thats a big if, and only true of point only weapons such as the epee.  With an edged weapon (such as all in WOT I think) you can cut in close.  Even with a point only weapon, the only way you are likely to get in close is after impaling yourself on the blade.

 

Tim

[Kaznen]

But with slashing weapons you need to swing it.  And the blades aren't always sharpened to the cross guard, that part is called the ricuso, the people who attacked Mat & Crew were tightly packed together, limiting their room to swing.

 

And, speaking from experience, it is easier to in-fight with a thrusty weapon like a rapier or epee then with a slashing weapon.  It has to do with leverage. 

 

And some of the manuals dealing with fighting a swordsman with a knife or unarmed were 12th-13th century so all they had were slashy swords.

[tjtalbert]

But with slashing weapons you need to swing it.  And the blades aren't always sharpened to the cross guard, that part is called the ricuso, the people who attacked Mat & Crew were tightly packed together, limiting their room to swing.

 

And, speaking from experience, it is easier to in-fight with a thrusty weapon like a rapier or epee then with a slashing weapon.  It has to do with leverage. 

 

And some of the manuals dealing with fighting a swordsman with a knife or unarmed were 12th-13th century so all they had were slashy swords.

 

You don't need to swing a "slashy" sword, the edge is used with a cut, not a chop.  What are you going to do with a epee in-fighting, bash them with the hilt?  Thats about all.  A rapier is both an edged and a thrusting weapon.  Again, against a competent fencer you will not get close enough to use a knife except by chance.  As a historical fencer, I would be interested in the 12th and 13th century documents you refer to.  Where can I find them?

 

Tim

[Kaznen]

As a historical fencer, I would be interested in the 12th and 13th century documents you refer to.  Where can I find them?

 

Amazon.com, ebay, your local booksellers, your local libary.  They're not that hard to find.

 

And I to am a historical fencer (SCA) and before that USFA (strip).  I have fenced off and on for over 12 years.  My favorite weapon in USFA fencing was epee and I has good at in-fighting.  Pull back or raise my arm and it was easy to get my opponent.

 

But the sharp edge on a sword is not like a saw.  Unless the blade was sharp as a razor (and they never were) you would need to put a lot of force into a cut to make it more then something minor like a paper cut.  It goes back to leverage.  And the base of the blades were rarely sharpened because parrying and blocking were done with the "forte" (lower third) of the blade.  A sharp edge would bring nicks in the blade which creates a stress point (our friend physics) making the blade more likely to break.

 

And movies that feature sword fighting are choreographed by fencing experts (expect the Star Wars prequels and that showed) so the scene in The Last Samurai when Tom Cruise killed four men while unarmed was a possibility in the kendo style of sword fighting.  You would need to be a good fighter to do that, and Mat, Thom, Tuon, and Selucia are good fighters.

[tjtalbert]

Amazon.com, ebay, your local booksellers, your local libary.  They're not that hard to find

 

Nope.  Heres the link to Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=12th+century+fencing.  Here's the search results at ebay: Your search returned 0 items.  I'll stop by my libary and ask if they have any 12th century manuscripts I can check out.

 

But, I guess I have made my point (so to speak) and I understand you disagree.  Maybe we'll have the chance to put it to the test someday. 

 

Oh, I forgot, SCA is not fencing, it is play acting.  Modern sport fencing is a game, not historical fencing.

 

Tim

[Kaznen]

Then by your own logic "historical fencing" isn't fencing, it's dancing.

[tjtalbert]

Well, you lost me with that one my friend.  This has gone to far afield, so I will leave this debate with a question: If you had to face a Trolock would you pick up a sword or a knife?

 

Tim