Verin; An Objective Analysis.

[Luckers]

Ok, so everyone gets hung up on the lie--its wierd, we all know that. But by her own POV we know her to be bound by the First Oath, yet she seemingly lies. Some suggest mental manipulation--Moiraine said to her "could you go grab that blanket" and Verin states "Moiraine  sent me" 'to get a blanket'.

 

If that sort of prevarication were possible one would think other Aes Sedai would have used it--but honestly, end game, its a huge mystery.

 

So lets shove it aside. Maybe she lied, maybe she didn't... but here is a question--why did she lie/distort the truth? I mean seriously--she was speaking to Shienarans who respect Aes Sedai, she could have said a mouse thought they'd need her and no one would have batted an eye. The hunt for the Horn is important, so why didn't she simply say "I thought you might need my help"?

 

What did her 'lie' achieve? Nothing--unless you concider that she didn't know Rand was missing. In which case saying Moiraine sent her serves to put his back up. Verin directly knows that Moiraine sent Rand off by himself in order to manipulate him, let him think he is free--Verin's comment, in that light, seems to be directly intended to disrupt Moiraine's machinations.

 

But why?

 

Let's concider Verin's other wierd actions.

 

1. The Salidar Embassy--After the attack on Demira Verin manipulates the Salidar Embassy into a disasterous confrontation with Rand. Merana herself notes it.

 

2. Compelling Aes Sedai to help him.

 

3. She conciders killing Cadsuane, yet stops when Cadsuane reveals her intention to help Rand.

 

She's done some wierd stuff, stuff we can't explain--but the point does make a picture. At each stage she has acted to stop Aes Sedai from having control over Rand. Her lie serves no purpose but to put Rand on edge, and she does the reverse against Siuan and Moiraine--after meeting Rand she does her little speach about how strong he is and how they might have to gentle him--'oh wait, we can't'.

 

She continues in trying to seperate Rand and Aes Sedai with the Salidar embassy. Yet she then compells Aes Sedai to help him. And she stops herself when learning Cadsuane's intentions.

 

She wants the Aes Sedai to help Rand, but doesn't want them controlling him--which makes sense concidering how stupid the Aes Sedai can be. Nothing else explains her actions.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I completely agree with the conclusion you have reached, by which I mean the last line of your post.

[moroten]

I never thought about it that way. Nice conclusion. Now can we please put the matter at rest?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I never thought about it that way. Nice conclusion. Now can we please put the matter at rest?

 

Are you kidding?  Its nice to see that some people still pretend to rationality, though.  ;D

[Gentled Ben]

I'm definitely in your camp on this too, Luckers. I think it's a great bit of deductive reasoning and that you're likely spot-on.

[Casco]

I will think of verin as a good AS, and only there for helping Rand. If it turn out her to be a DF..it will be a disaster..

The question is still, HOW do she know so mutch and how do she know what to do, when to do it without any chanse at all being able to know it in the first place.

She is a very strange character, but i like her :)

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Also interesting to note:

Verin introduced Egwene to the World of Dreams.

She saved Mat's life (from the dagger sickness) twice.

She was instrumental in saving Emonds Field and Perrin's life.

She showed Rand how to use the Portal Stones.

 

Verin has helped out most of the main characters, sometimes when the White Tower might have a reason not to.  I think she knows how badly the WT can mess up manipulating people, so she is intent on making sure the important players have room to do what they need to do.  Also, she understands the prophecies very well, so I am sure she intends to see them through as best she can.

[Builder]

I didn't understand it. I just simply couldn't get a grip around the theory Luckers  :(

[nnokwoodeye]

So, you are saying that Verin is one of the only sensible people in the tower? Interesting, especially if we consider that the only other aes sedai we know that can see beyond the very limited scope of her scheming is Cadsuane, another oldie. maybe it is because they both lived long enough to see the wheel in action, to know that no matter how obvious the future seems, something completely unexpected (like a bunch of crazy desert people who just decided one day to kill a king) could change everything.

 

Either that or that Verin is the creator.  ;D

[metria31183]

Either that or that Verin is the creator.  ;D

 

Impossible.  We all know Bela is the Creator.

[Builder]

LETS KEEP ALL SARCASM IN THE MOIRAINE BEING DEMANDRED THREAD OK?

 

Ehh, I mean, lets keep all sarcasm in the Moiraine being Demandred thread ok?

[mb]

She showed Rand how to use the Portal Stones.

 

Actually, that was Selene (Lanfear alias).

 

[ROB_88]

She showed Rand how to use the Portal Stones.

 

Actually, that was Selene (Lanfear alias).

 

 

no, i see it as lanfear basically saying: "here's a portal stone, do something"

while Verin was more of: "here's a portal stone, this button takes you here, this button does that, and that big red button sets off the nukes"

[Dark Justice]

I have to agree completely with luckers here. This has been my thought aswell... She is no darkfriend. But she is not your average Aes Sedai.

[Jethro]

Now can we please put the matter at rest?

 

Theres no reason for us to stop discussing it. What we should do is should stop it from spreading across multiple threads any more than it has, it will end up ruining every discussion it seeps into. Let us not discuss the matter of her lie/not lie here, let us keep this discussion specifically on her motives/objectives.

 

I think Verin is trying to steer the Ta'veren on the right paths-not just preventing the Aes Sedai from using Rand, but to help all three find their own way by stopping the Aes Sedai from using them. Whether or not she knows things about their future is a very interesting thought considering how many ways there are to know the future. Maybe she has been to the Finns and was told that Aes Sedai will cause the Ta'veren to falter if they try to control them? Or maybe, since she is Brown Ajah, she has been reading more of the prophecies than most and has figured out that the Aes Sedai could end up preventing events that are prophecied to happen? All the way along I have been waiting for someone who makes connections between the prophecies that most characters miss, and up until this discussion I had thought the only person like this would be Noal, who can see Mat in the prophecies. Maybe Verin is the one Aes Sedai clever enough to look at the prophecies for clues as to what needs to happen and actually use the information.

 

It would be interesting to learn more about her motives to say the least, but yes, my belief is that she is doing what she can to ensure that the Ta'veren find their own paths, the necessary paths, and not the paths the Aes Sedai ignorantly wish to lay down for them.

 

Do we know if Verin was involved in Alanna bonding Rand? I seem to remember it being said that Alanna had considered bonding Perrin, and I liked the way it turned out she bonded Rand instead. It seemed like a Ta'veren twist to me; Verin and Alanna were about to have one of the Ta'veren bonded so they could locate them anytime, and it ended up that Rand was bonded instead because he would need the endurance and fast healing from the Warder bond.

 

To me, Verin seems like the sort of character you would use to bring about some epic plot twists. She ranks 3rd in my favorite Aes Sedai, behind Cadsuane in 2nd and Moiraine in 1st. Just like Moiraine has had her time, and Cadsuane is having hers, Verin will have her bit in AMoL. I hope.

[benr]

Perhaps you are right, Luckers, that Verin's motive has just been to keep Rand from the AS in general.  I have always thought that she was definitely maneuvering him, but I'm not convinced that it is as altruistic as you say.  Maybe so, but I would be disappointed.  A lot of effort has gone into creating this mysterious, unreadable character. She's far and away my favorite AS, with Egwene a distant second.

[xntric]

I see Verin's actions as a result of Prophecy and Ta'veren weaving. If Verin didn't follow the party in the Great Hunt, Mat would've died from the dagger sickness, and Rand would have had no way of going to Toman Head via the Portal Stones. In Shadow Rising, she aided Perrin in the Two Rivers. In Lord of Chaos,  her manipulation of Demira resulted in AS swearing fealty to the Dragon Reborn. Her actions directly/indirectly leads to the fulfilment of the prophecy of some kind.

 

In Path of Daggers, Verin commented that she was caught up in Ta'veren weaving while "compelling" Elaida's AS to serve Rand.

 

 

[Luckers]

I will think of verin as a good AS, and only there for helping Rand. If it turn out her to be a DF..it will be a disaster..

 

On that at least we can be certain--whatever she is, she is no darkfriend.

 

The question is still, HOW do she know so mutch and how do she know what to do, when to do it without any chanse at all being able to know it in the first place.

 

It could simply be she's perceptive. The flaws in the Aes Sedai all stem from the blindness they have towards their position as Aes Sedai--seriously all of their foolishness stems from that, there disdain for wilders, their certainty about their own right to meddle, their attitudes towards men who can channel... all from that one cause. But if she realised that cause, then unravelling the rest would not be difficult--and RJ has made a point about Aes Sedai who get past that indoctrination, one and all they are formidable people.

 

On the other hand maybe Corianin's notes contained information--dreams she had about the posibility of Aes Sedai ruining things through their hubris or some such. It would explain why she considers showing Egwene--she was already being earmarked for a position of influence, and given her personal relationship to Rand she would be likely able to understand the information. It also explains why she considered destroying them. There are Aes Sedai who would not react well to such documentation. Especially if it spoke of a need to ensure the Dragon ended up in charge of Aes Sedai.

 

I didn't understand it. I just simply couldn't get a grip around the theory Luckers

 

The crux of it is that Verin realised that Aes Sedai would immediately try to control Rand--and for no other reason than that they think they should--and that they would then stuff things up through their various shortfalls (things like, keeping Rand a prisoner in the tower then totting him out, untrained, at the last minute, as if without experience Rand stood a chance). Yet, that being said, she also knew the Aes Sedai would need to be in the game in order for the light to win, so she has acted to ensure that they are involved, but that none of them ended up in charge of Rand.

 

It's why she considers killing Cadsuane. She sees her gaining power over Rand, and is concerned, but when she learns Cadsuanes intentions are not to control Rand, but rather aid him, she stops. Its why she lied, to put Rand's back up, and why she goaded Moiraine and Siuan after the meeting at the beginning of the Great Hunt--to ensure neither trusted the other enough to allow for real control. It's why she goaded the Salidar embassy into confronting Rand, knowing full well what it would do, and its why she compelled sisters into swearing fealty to Rand.

 

So, you are saying that Verin is one of the only sensible people in the tower? Interesting, especially if we consider that the only other aes sedai we know that can see beyond the very limited scope of her scheming is Cadsuane, another oldie. maybe it is because they both lived long enough to see the wheel in action, to know that no matter how obvious the future seems, something completely unexpected (like a bunch of crazy desert people who just decided one day to kill a king) could change everything.

 

It's not just that they are old, its that they were able to escape Aes Sedai indoctrination. Aes Sedai wait for girls to approach them, girls already wowwed enough with the image of Aes Sedai to risk leaving home and heading out into the wide world. They also ensure it is only young, and thus impressionable girls. Then they sequester them from the world for upwards of twenty years during which they are molded, and constantly reinforced with the glory of the image of Aes Sedai.

 

By the time they reach the shawl, despite their extensive education and intelligence, they are so ennamoured with the image of Aes Sedai that they spend all their time being what they think Aes Sedai should be, rather then simply being it. They've forgotten that it should be the woman that brings glory to the title, not the title to the woman.

 

RJ has made a theme of those who have escaped this indoctrination--they are all formidable women. Cadsuane, Verin, Pevara, Tarna, Moiraine. That is why Cadsuane is better equiped to understand Verin--she's not looking at her as Aes Sedai, she's looking at her as a woman.

 

I think Verin is trying to steer the Ta'veren on the right paths-not just preventing the Aes Sedai from using Rand, but to help all three find their own way by stopping the Aes Sedai from using them. Whether or not she knows things about their future is a very interesting thought considering how many ways there are to know the future. Maybe she has been to the Finns and was told that Aes Sedai will cause the Ta'veren to falter if they try to control them? Or maybe, since she is Brown Ajah, she has been reading more of the prophecies than most and has figured out that the Aes Sedai could end up preventing events that are prophecied to happen? All the way along I have been waiting for someone who makes connections between the prophecies that most characters miss, and up until this discussion I had thought the only person like this would be Noal, who can see Mat in the prophecies. Maybe Verin is the one Aes Sedai clever enough to look at the prophecies for clues as to what needs to happen and actually use the information.

 

I agree--and would point out that she has Corianin's note--the last Dreamer, supposedly she barely deserved the name, but Verin spoke of Corianin as a woman with many secrets.

 

Do we know if Verin was involved in Alanna bonding Rand? I seem to remember it being said that Alanna had considered bonding Perrin, and I liked the way it turned out she bonded Rand instead. It seemed like a Ta'veren twist to me; Verin and Alanna were about to have one of the Ta'veren bonded so they could locate them anytime, and it ended up that Rand was bonded instead because he would need the endurance and fast healing from the Warder bond.

 

Verin disaproved of what Alanna did--you see it directly after she does it. Moreover Verin actually warns Perrin to beware Alanna--presumably because Alanna was concidering doing it.

 

To me, Verin seems like the sort of character you would use to bring about some epic plot twists. She ranks 3rd in my favorite Aes Sedai, behind Cadsuane in 2nd and Moiraine in 1st. Just like Moiraine has had her time, and Cadsuane is having hers, Verin will have her bit in AMoL. I hope.

 

I'm the exact same.

 

In Path of Daggers, Verin commented that she was caught up in Ta'veren weaving while "compelling" Elaida's AS to serve Rand.

 

That was actually about her swearing herself, not about her subsequent compelling of the Tower sisters into the same oath.

 

 

[rhadamanthus]

Great posts in this thread Luckers.  I like your analysis.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

I too agree with the conclusion and more importantly, have never believed her to be a Darkfriend. But, I do have a couple comments:

 

*  I never took her "Moiraine sent me" comment as a lie per se.  I always interpreted the comment as, "Moiraine's actions (i.e. attempting to control the Dragon Reborn) sent me / encouraged me to tag along". 

 

*  Not sure how that fits in with her pre occupation with Perrin & Matt, the other 2 Taveren. 

[Osan`gar]

very good rationalization luckers <--- Da Man!!!

 

now i was wondering why verin is so intent on preserving rands freedom from the WT. i understand the reasons for it  because he can not fulfill the prophecy on a leash. but she seems to have a personal agenda. she was going to murder cadsuane !!! that decision was not made lightly. didnt she also use a minor form of compulsion as well ??? she is very odd and i cant put my finger on the reason. she seems more intent even than moiraine and moiraine had been looking for him for 20 years.

[Luckers]

I did actually cover both issues Osan'gar.

 

The crux of it is that Verin realised that Aes Sedai would immediately try to control Rand--and for no other reason than that they think they should--and that they would then stuff things up through their various shortfalls (things like, keeping Rand a prisoner in the tower then totting him out, untrained, at the last minute, as if without experience Rand stood a chance). Yet, that being said, she also knew the Aes Sedai would need to be in the game in order for the light to win, so she has acted to ensure that they are involved, but that none of them ended up in charge of Rand.

 

 

It's why she considers killing Cadsuane. She sees her gaining power over Rand, and is concerned, but when she learns Cadsuanes intentions are not to control Rand, but rather aid him, she stops.Its why she lied, to put Rand's back up, and why she goaded Moiraine and Siuan after the meeting at the beginning of the Great Hunt--to ensure neither trusted the other enough to allow for real control. It's why she goaded the Salidar embassy into confronting Rand, knowing full well what it would do, and its why she compelled sisters into swearing fealty to Rand.

 

she seems more intent even than moiraine and moiraine had been looking for him for 20 years.

 

She does say she's been working on her current plan for 70 years.

 

 

 

 

[Osan`gar]

Luckers, i have read every book in the series many times and yet i stand amazed at your encylopaedic knowledge. i can always count on you for good insiteful answers... thank you :)

[Luckers]

I didn't actually mean to make the entire post bolded--i'd bolded the specific comments that touched on the issue.

 

It looks kind of obnoxious. Sorry.  :)

 

And thanks mate, i appreciate that.

[Osan`gar]

Luckers: no problem :)