The first dragon.

[moroten]

In the prologue of the EotW Ishy says that they have fought the same battle countless of times, of course he may have lied, bad guys have a tendecy to do so. But if that battle has been fought a thousand times who was the first Dragon? And if LTT wasnt the first dragon then why is he the one representeing the Dragon's soul in Tel'arnhiod? Where the other dragons a bunch of cowards and didnt suit the Tel'anrhiod's demands?

 

And lets say that LTT was the firs dragon and this battle is only fought for the 2nd time, then where does the knowledge of "the same people being reborn" come from?

 

Well that is something I have been thinking of...god I hate thinking.

 

-Moroten

[RobertAlexWillis]

Lews Therin Telamon isn't the one representing the Dragon's soul in Tel'aran'rhiod.  Thats just the name the Heroes use with Rand because its one they know he'll recognize.  A previous Dragon could have been named "Edward James Olmos", but if Hawkwing (also just a name of convenience) called Rand "Edward James Olmos" it would just be confusing for everyone.

[MikeRiley]

Lews Therin is the first dragon, and the last you could say. Since time works in a cycle in the books there's no beginning or end. My guess is if there was a beginning it was formed complete with a history and the cycle already in place. Between each age he's present in, the Dragon's soul sits in TAR going mad from boredom.

 

There isn't really anything to say for certain whether Rand's soul is always the one used for the Dragon, but it's a safe assumption.

[Jethro]

And lets say that LTT was the firs dragon and this battle is only fought for the 2nd time, then where does the knowledge of "the same people being reborn" come from?

 

3000 years is a long time. A rebirth doesnt necessarily have to happen thousands of years after the one before, for all we know Ilyena might have been reborn the day after Lews Therin killed her.

 

There isn't really anything to say for certain whether Rand's soul is always the one used for the Dragon, but it's a safe assumption.

 

RJ has said so IIRC, that the Dragon is a soul reborn to be the saviour and whatnot.

[nnokwoodeye]

As it was said in another thread the customs among the dream world dead is to call each other by the last name they had. When rand would go there after he would die, they would call him rand, not LTT.

The LTT persona isn't the dragon that is on tar'. The personalities of the people there seem to be an Amalgamation of their last 3-4 incarnations (they just don't remember anything that happened before that).

 

The first dragon, we don't know anything about him. we don't even know what age he lived in. if he first appeared in the third age he might have been similar to rand, although it isn't certain because we don't know just how much the pattern of an age can change over time, or how many repeats every age had.

If the first dragon was born in a different age his life could have been very different. If I understand what RJ said correctly, it possible that he wasn't important at all (that kind of make sense, because the dragon would be useless in the non-OP ages).

[mb]

If there were any dragons before Lews Therin, the books do not identify it/them.

The books tell that Lews Therin was reborn many times, yet not always as the Dragon.  It could have been that Ishamael fought with each of them.

 

I think that Heroes of the Horn are the only humans that inhabit Telaranrhiod; the only other residents I take to be only wolves.

Being a Hero I think is decided by the Pattern.  Need probably is the deciding factor.  Not sure when the decision is made.

 

[nnokwoodeye]

Being a Hero I think is decided by the Pattern.  Need probably is the deciding factor.  Not sure when the decision is made.

 

I think if you find yourself holding the horn of Valere during a tense moment, and use it (assuming you haven't done it before in a previews incarnation) chances are you just been recruited.

[Kaznen]

When Rand saw the Heroes he saw more names per person then just one.  If Hawkwing had called Rand Joshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) and Rand called him Augustus Ceasar or Pontuse Pilote he readers could have understood the meaning But Perrin, Mat, and Hurin wouldn't know what they where talking about.

 

There is no first or last Dragon ine the Wheel of Time, just as there are no beggings or endings to The Wheel of Time.

 

But there is a Dragon.

 

You had to see that one coming;)

[Jethro]

The books tell that Lews Therin was reborn many times, yet not always as the Dragon.  It could have been that Ishamael fought with each of them.

 

All of Ishamaels rantings about the war happening hundreds f times was said when he believed he was the Great Lord. Ishamael may have fought the Dragon in his own past lives, but the possibility is irrelevant since he was speaking in a frame of mind when he believed he really was Ba'alzamon. Ishamaels battle against Lews Therin was his first battle against the Dragon that we know of, and if anyone has fought the Dragon before it would be the Great Lord, not Ishamael. Unless, of course, you want to believe that Ishamaels soul is spun out by the Great Lord with every turning of the wheel like the Dragon is spun out, but thats unsupported.

[lgautam]

The heroes in TAR seem to be how they were in their last incarnation-like Hawkwing and Birgitte.

That means the Dragon soul would be in TAR in the form of Lews Therin.(That explains how Hawkwing and LTT know each other). But judging from what Rand is getting from LTT at the moment, I can't imagine how the dead heroes coul've born LTT's insane ranting for 3OOO years. Besides, wouldn't LTT unleash his destructive insanity in TAR?

[Kaznen]

The heroes had little power in TAR.  And they couldn't talk to people who where there knowingly.

[Mr Ares]

The personalities of the people there seem to be an Amalgamation of their last 3-4 incarnations (they just don't remember anything that happened before that).

Wrong. Birgitte remembers many lives, not just the last 3-4.

 

A previous Dragon could have been named "Edward James Olmos".

So you're saying Admiral Adama is the Dragon? Will we be subjected to another round of "So say we all" in AMoL?

[nnokwoodeye]

Wrong. Birgitte remembers many lives, not just the last 3-4.

 

Well I didn't count, sorry. Anyway regardless of how many life they remember, we know they don't remember all of them since birgitte don't remember the last third age.

 

The heroes in TAR seem to be how they were in their last incarnation-like Hawkwing and Birgitte.

That means the Dragon soul would be in TAR in the form of Lews Therin.(That explains how Hawkwing and LTT know each other). But judging from what Rand is getting from LTT at the moment, I can't imagine how the dead heroes coul've born LTT's insane ranting for 3OOO years. Besides, wouldn't LTT unleash his destructive insanity in TAR?

 

LTT is currently insane because he only remember being LTT (and even that only partially). In tar he wasn't only LTT he was a few others dragons. He had better perspective that probably helped him deal with his grief.

[Casco]

LTT was not mad or crazy when he died. He was healed just a moment before. That is another thing, he (the personality) maby did get crazy in TAR, but i dont think so. He thinks and behave like a madman in Rands head, but he hear Rand as a voice in his "head" to :)I dont know about how LTT "living" now, but he sees the same things as Rand, hear all the things and thinks Rand might be his own body. That can drive any man go a bit "strange" ill think. LTT is far down in incredible sorrow for killing his family and friends...thats why he cries, shouts and stuff. Add a body thats not his, and a voice in his head who REFUSES to do as he want.

 

LTT wanst crazy or mad in TAR after he did die, at least not from the taint.

 

[Dark Justice]

Ishys healing of LTT was only momentarily. He sais so himself.

[mb]

The books tell that Lews Therin was reborn many times, yet not always as the Dragon.  It could have been that Ishamael fought with each of them.

 

All of Ishamaels rantings about the war happening hundreds f times was said when he believed he was the Great Lord. Ishamael may have fought the Dragon in his own past lives, but the possibility is irrelevant since he was speaking in a frame of mind when he believed he really was Ba'alzamon. Ishamaels battle against Lews Therin was his first battle against the Dragon that we know of, and if anyone has fought the Dragon before it would be the Great Lord, not Ishamael. Unless, of course, you want to believe that Ishamaels soul is spun out by the Great Lord with every turning of the wheel like the Dragon is spun out, but thats unsupported.

 

Being spun out is not the only way for Ishamael to fight each rebirth.

The books tell that he was released from the Bore during a number of times.  The number of battles might have totaled to thousands; or at least some number that Ishamael lost count.

 

[Dark Justice]

Since ishy got sealed up there has  been no rebirth of the dragon soul. So Ishy has not fought the drago inbetween the sealing of the bore and Rands time.

There has been no Ishy vs LTT fight before. The reason ishy sais they have fought over and over again is becausehe was completely and utterly mad, and really thought he was the DO.

The DO and the dragon has been fighting in each turing of the wheel...

[MikeRiley]

Ishamael was talking about the fight between the Dragon and the Dark One at each turning of the wheel. He wasn't referring to some no-account sword fight after the breaking.

[DemandredFO]

If Adama is the Dragon is Gius Baltar the Dark One.  And Number six or whatever is Lanfear(that's about the extent of my BSG knowledge)

[Jethro]

Ishamael was talking about the fight between the Dragon and the Dark One at each turning of the wheel. He wasn't referring to some no-account sword fight after the breaking.

 

And Ishamael said that when he was in Ba'alzamon mode. Some people thought that meant that Ishamael had fought the Dragon many times, but we cleared up that in reality Ishamael fought Lews Therin only once as far as we know-nothing to support otherwise-and we also cleared up that it is the Great Lord that has fought the Dragon many times. That last bit is supported by several sources more reliable than Ishamaels babblings, such as the theme of time repeating itself (the first paragraph of chapter 1), Herid Fels theories, Artur Hawkwings comments to Rand when Mat blew the Horn, and that Elan Morin was an incredibly famous philosopher who came to the conclusion that the War indeed had been fought many times way before he lost his marbles.

[MikeRiley]

I agree, but my post was a response to mb's idea that they fought numerous times after the breaking. I didn't quote him because the reply was (so I thought) right after his.

[Mr Ares]

Wrong. Birgitte remembers many lives, not just the last 3-4.

Well I didn't count, sorry. Anyway regardless of how many life they remember, we know they don't remember all of them since birgitte don't remember the last third age.

Doesn't she? Evidence for this? Also, we know she doesn't remember all her lives because she specifically states that even in her earliest memories, she knows she has already lived hundreds of lives.

[Jethro]

Ah sorry Mike.

[DemandredFO]

I think Birgitte says she remembers riding with Lews Therin, she always coming out with comments from early ages and as time passes with her being ripped away memories of stuff before the founding of the White Tower fade.  Going by all this we can surmise that at least in T'A'R and for a little while outside she can remember alot more thanfour.  How far back we don't know.

[nnokwoodeye]

Wrong. Birgitte remembers many lives, not just the last 3-4.

Well I didn't count, sorry. Anyway regardless of how many life they remember, we know they don't remember all of them since birgitte don't remember the last third age.

Doesn't she? Evidence for this?

 

Well, I don't think she actually said that, but it just seems obvious. If she would have remembered the last third age that would mean that she would actually know the future. She would have too much knowledge for it to be "fair" (even if she did forgot most of it)