Galad has a hard time fighting Eamon Valda

[jsbrads]

assumption 1. Warder training is top of the top, no one in the world matches.

Fact 1. Galad sticks out as being best of the best in this group.

assumption 2. Hammar is a blade master

Fact 2. Gawyn kills Hammar

Fact 3. Galad is way better than Gawyn as a student.

assumption 3. Galad continues to grow in his skill until he fight Valda.

 

? what the heck is going on in that fight ? how can it be Eamon has a chance ?

[spothistto]

Eemon Valda is a blademaster himself, which means he is one of the best sword in the known world. He has years of experience.

Was the teacher in Tar Valon a blademaster? I don't remember. If he wasn't then that explains how Gawyn was able to defeat him, but Galad still had a hard time against Valda.

[Kaznen]

Valda didn't think Galad was much of a threat.  And he was right.  Galad was getting his butt handed to him until he started to pretend he was getting winded.

 

He then went into a pattern that was easily defeated, and to sell it he had to get hurt badly.  Then after Valda expected the pattern to continue he switched it up and killed him.

 

Aside from the killing blow, Valda only recieved one sigificant injury while Galad could barely stand.

 

I think Gwayn got Hammer because hammer didn't think he was a threat either.

[chuckievi]

I also had the impression that Hammar was older. 

[Gentled Ben]

Some things that we see from Warders are great outdoor skills and tracking abilities. Warders are observant, and Warders also seem to make decent scouts and spies (Moiraine sends Lan to spy out a way into the Stone of Tear in TDR, and Vandene sends Jaim out to scout/spy/gather information in Caemlyn in KoD). Lan seems to know enough about a variety of weapons so as to give Perrin some basic training with his axe, and it is implied in a few places, such as when Gareth Bryne is brought by one of Myrelle's Warders before the Salidar cabal of Sheriam, et al, and when Lan studies open-handed combat with Rand and Ruarc, that Warders are also deadly without a sword. Perhaps there is much more that goes into Warder training than simply swordfighting, as we have no indication from Valda, or Toram Riatin for that matter, that a blademaster has any other fighting or survival-related skills outside of the use of a sword.

 

If you take a Stone Dog's spears away, he is still deadly, as Gaul shows us when Perrin frees him in Remen in TDR, and they fight the Whitecloaks. For all we know, Valda can't kick Lini's butt without his sword. We simply do not know enough about Warder training to make an accurate assessment of Valda's overall fighting skills vs. those of a Warder. It is only apparent that Valda would match or outclass most Warders in a swordfight. Valda may be quite exceptional; we simply do not know, so the fact that he nearly kills Galad is not necessarily a reflection on the abilities of most Warders, although since we find out that Aes Sedai are not necessarily all that and a bag of chips, perhaps it would follow that neither are their Warders.  :-\

[RobertAlexWillis]

Guys, the result of any sword-fight is not the result of absolute "skill levels".  Blademasters are not identical.  So, just because one person won under specific circumstances in one case does not necessarily mean that translates into a different circumstance with a different opponent.

 

So, it doesn't boil down to "Galad > Gawyn > Hammar, so Galad > any blademaster you care to name".

 

The "best" status of Warder training is simply an opinion.  That doesn't mean that no one else in the world can train to a point where they are better than someone who was Warder-trained.  Also, we don't know HOW Gawyn killed Hammar ... he may have gotten the drop on him, or not been alone.  There are so many variables here.  Valda had been a blademaster for years, and probably kept training his whole life.  He certainly fought enough duels for those around him to know his tendencies quite readily.

 

There are just a lot of variables here.

[Builder]

I think Valda and Galad were equals, but Galad was only a tad better.

 

However, I think I've read somewhere that Galad manages to see the pattern of attack of opponents. Even though he might get hurt several times, he figures out what the enemy does, and makes a strategy to kill the opponenet efficiently.

[Jethro]

Valda would have won, if you ask me, but he was too busy underestimating Galad and congratulating himself on the kill before he did it. Valda "knew" he could beat Galad, didnt think it was that big a fight, but because Galad kept his wits about him and fought cleverly he won.

[MikeRiley]

Valda would have won, if you ask me, but he was too busy underestimating Galad and congratulating himself on the kill before he did it. Valda "knew" he could beat Galad, didnt think it was that big a fight, but because Galad kept his wits about him and fought cleverly he won.

 

Something tells me that part of being a good swordsman is your attitude during the fight rather than just the amount of stances you know. "A good swordsman never lets down his guard" type stuff. Galad tricked Valda in the middle of a sword fight while both were watching each other intently and concentrating on their fighting. His win was because he was the better fighter. Had Valda been less cocky he might have been better, but that flaw in him is still a flaw. Or was, I should say.

 

The difference in book learning and real experience. Valda knew, Galad did.

[Jethro]

You're right, but thats the benefit of being the underdog isn't it? Valda had every reason to believe he would win, having never seen Galad fight, and Galad used Valdas overconfidence against him. Its good when the fighters get tactical in the smaller scaled fights I think. I just wish we would see Lan do it more since technically he and Rand would have been an almost unstoppable duo pre-stump. Of course any such fight would have had to have been in Far Madding for Rand not to just sweep anything away with the Power, but it would have been good to see Lan and Rand go to extremes before Semirhage did her stuff.

[Kaznen]

Valda was the better fighter.  Galad was getting his but kicked, and he knew it.  Not only was Valda faster then Galad but he was thinking three ahead.  HE knew when he through an attack how Galad would parry, what Galad would do as a ripost, and how he would parry the riposte (which was often not the textbook answer).

 

If he wasn't the sadiistic fighter that like to bleed out his opponents that he was he would have cut down Galad after the opening moves.

 

It was only when Galad tricked him by playing tired and then hiself thinking a few moves ahead that he was able to win.

 

On a related note.  Before the fight started Galad was thinking to be a blademaster you have to be aproved by blademasters or defeat a blade master in single combat.  Everyone excepts Galad is now a blademaster, but when RJ was asked if that means Rand is a blademaster (because he killed High Lord Toruk) after the KoD preview was released he said, "There is more to it then that."

 

So what gives there?

[Gentled Ben]

I don't think there were any witnesses to Rand's fight with Turok, like there were with Galad's fight with Valda. I am certain that that is one of the arguments I read in a thread here about whether or not Rand's a blademaster. If you look hard enough, you'll find threads here about it.

[MikeRiley]

Yeah, there had to be a witness to the fight and there were none when Turok was killed. For all anybody knows (and what the Seanchan believe) Rand murdered Turok and it wasn't fair play.

 

 

If he wasn't the sadiistic fighter that like to bleed out his opponents that he was he would have cut down Galad after the opening moves.

 

Like I said before, this was a flaw. Valda was known for this. If he went for the kill, yeah he would have won probably. Did he? No. Why? Because his weakness is making people bleed. He lets his personal enjoyment get in the way of his fighting and this is why he lost.

 

It was only when Galad tricked him by playing tired and then hiself thinking a few moves ahead that he was able to win.

 

Galad made use of Valda's weakness using a tactic he thought out while fighting with a blademaster. If Valda wasn't flawed he would have been the better fighter, but since he has that flaw and Galad was able to best him, Galad wins it. It's as simple as that. Your mindset in a fight is as much a skill determining factor as your strength and knowledge of the moves. Valda had one but not the other and Galad clearly showed he had both (though his moves were lacking compared to Valda). Somebody could be the best boxer in the world and if they have a tendency to enter a blind rage, they'll never hold the championship title because while they might fight the best with a cool head there's always a "lesser" fighter out there who can keep their cool where it counts. The lesser fighter is the one that will be remembered.

[Blade]

you could think about this too, gawyn and co had a more level playing field in dueling hammar since they had trained against him practically every day growing up so they knew his fighting style and moves, while I doubt that galad knew much if anything about fighting valda as evidenced by the advice given to him at the start of the fight.

[Kaznen]

Gawyn has been training as a soldier since he was about twelve.  Before the fight with Valda, Galad thought more about his training with Gareth Bryne and Henri Halsin, would would have been teaching Gawyn also, then he did about his training with Hammer.

 

The two brothers have been training with the Warders for less then year until the schism.

 

And, interesting note, the same guy who did the bulk of Galad and Gawyns' sword training, Henri Halsin, is in charge of teaching the AM how to swordfight.

[Jethro]

On a related note.  Before the fight started Galad was thinking to be a blademaster you have to be aproved by blademasters or defeat a blade master in single combat.  Everyone excepts Galad is now a blademaster, but when RJ was asked if that means Rand is a blademaster (because he killed High Lord Toruk) after the KoD preview was released he said, "There is more to it then that."

 

So what gives there?

 

 

 

My thought is that when RJ said "There's more to it than that," he was taking into account that he just had Semirhage blow Rands primary hand off. Some authors do that, give a cryptic answer that can only be verified by reading the book they've just released. But yeah, thats what I reckon about it anyway. Rand is no longer a blademaster.

[Mr Ares]

Well, RAW has already won, but it seems like no-one noticed.

I think Valda and Galad were equals, but Galad was only a tad better.

How can they be equals if one was better? One being better implies inequality.

 

The difference in book learning and real experience. Valda knew, Galad did.

Given that Valda actually had more experience than Galad, this would be the triumph of book learning?

 

Anyway, the question of who is better. Valda was cutting Galad to ribbons. Had he wanted Galad dead right then and there, he would have killed him then and there. Yet Galad won. Through outthinkking his opponent? Or just through luck? The problem is, as already mention, that there are too many variables. If they could replay the fight from the start, would the result be changed? Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe he is just too slow, Valda blocks his attack, and he's dead before he knows it. Maybe the next time, Valda was wearing the wrong shoes and got killed. Galad is good. Galad won. Those things we can say for sure. Whether one or the other is better? Who can say? We don't have enough information. Too many variables in play.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, RAW has already won, but it seems like no-one noticed.

 

LOL ... story of my life, Don Enyalius.

[MikeRiley]

The difference in book learning and real experience. Valda knew, Galad did.

Given that Valda actually had more experience than Galad, this would be the triumph of book learning?

 

No, Valda knew the sword moves - his book learning, to use my example. If his experience was true he would have applied what he learned in the fights to it and he would not have tried bleeding Galad to death after seeing Galad was able to hold his own for a time. This stupid move cost Valda his life and that move is why I think Galad is the better fighter. Galad kept a cool head and that is something we are told repeatedly in the series is absolutely required.

[Kaznen]

The way Science of swordfighting is described is like every attack has its proper defense.  Two sword fighters then do their dance as it has already been planned while waiting for the opponent to do a move less then perfect, the wrong move, or lose concentration.

 

Valda, it seems, doesn't follow those rules.  Galad made an attack and Valda didn't defend against with the proper defense, he amd another move.  Basically changed the rules.

 

It would be like you were playing chess and your opponent decided all his pawns could move like knights, but your pawns can't.

 

It was when Galad broke the rules himself, and making a major gambit, that he won.

[Builder]

That's another strength of Valda. He can be creative, but it Galad can be creative, and he was creative.

[Kaznen]

OT:  I think Lan fights in the more traditional method.  But he is perfect in the forms, thinks 10 moves ahead and is unstoppable until the fight is over.

[Builder]

What could Lan's weakness be?

[Kaznen]

He's like Spider-man.  The only way to hurt him is to go after the people he cares for.  But instead of a decrepite old aunt and hot girlfriend, Lan has a wife who can bend the powers of science and nature to her will.

[Builder]

Ok, so even hsi wife is uber, so he's almost invincible then.