Who is Messana?

[vikingdriver]

I've ran a search for this topic and sheesh the list was long but not found. I know it existed once a million years ago but the closest to it was "How to discover....Messana" which was posted in nearly four months ago so, unless it's been discovered already here's my take on it.

 

RJ gave us two very distinct hints at this. She taps her lips thoughtfully and is wearing a bronze dress with a Tairen Maze hem. Well a few Aes Sedia have been mentioned as tapping their lips but only one was mentioned wearing the described dress but no it can't be her she was stilled. Leane Sharif who by the way thoughtfully taps her lips as well. I thought I had a little Ah-Ha going on there but like I said she was stilled.

 

now listening to Crown of Swords last night another name came to mind and this one is not Aes Sedai (Accepted actually) She can lie, She is Strong in the power (somewhat) and is in and out of the picture quite a bit. She can also visit Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Somehow I have convinced myself that Theodrin Dabei just might be her.

 

Okay, so now I've layed it out and if anything must be thrown...either please have poor aim or use feathers.

[mb]

My theory can be found in the opening post of this thread::

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,35577.0.html

 

Theodrin went over to the rebels.  Mesaana has always stayed in the White Tower.

 

[Majsju]

Mesaana is posing as Danelle. This is quite thoroughly shown in one of the older threads, which I can not be bothered to dig up right now.

[Graendals favourite]

I do think she is Shevan, though. ;)

[Nightstrike]

I think she's taken over Tsutama Rath's identity.

[vikingdriver]

Mesaana is posing as Danelle. This is quite thoroughly shown in one of the older threads, which I can not be bothered to dig up right now.

I knew that I had seen that thread quite along while back but I picked up on Theodren for a few other reasons which I realized that I had not mentioned above. One of those reasons was that she had not held the oath rod yet and so was able to lie, secondly and I cannot remember which book it was in but she too was described as also wearing a bronze colored dress at one time. Now the most convincing (although I personally am not convinced myself) was Messana's use of the words "The Ferrets.," a term used by the Rebels themselves.

 

The one and only hold back for me to completely convince myself of her Identity is the fact that she (Messana) already knew what had transpired in Elaida's study in Crossroads of Twilight when Alviarin returns to the White Tower to discover that she had been replaced as the Keeper.

 

After looking up Danelle I kind of agree with her as the choice.

[Majsju]

Theodrin is automatically disqualified as an option, since she was one of the Accepted who tagged along to Salidar.

Also, it is extremely unlikely that Meesana would chose an Accepted as her cover, since that would mean a Lot more work hiding what she is up to. Accepted are supposed to serve Aes Sedai, have no real freedom to move around wherever they may want to go, etc.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

In another thread I asked the following questions (copied them).

 

There was that report from the booksigning, someone reported that RJ said it was possible to partially mask the ability. Not that we know if Mesaana knows how to do it, but it seems likely that she might (since she's in the tower, wearing silks).

 

RJ said we could figure out who she was before book 10 (CoT), the year 2001.

 

Mesaana was established in the tower at book 6. Earliest that I know of, does anyone else have any earlier mention?

 

Elaida was raised in book 4.

 

When Elaida was raised, she called Tsutama, Lirene & Toveine back from exile. Lirene is only about 5 feet tall (which rules her out) & Toveine is ruled out for other reasons. Alviarin was asked to find out why Ajah heads were meeting before Tsutama was raised Highest of the Red. After Tsutama was raised and Alviarin was sacked from being keeper, Mesaana was far from being worried or concerned. And Mesaana seems to know Elaida so well that it seems likely that she's had some contact with her.

 

Does anyone know if RJ said we should be able to figure out Mesaana's identity before 2001? Because that's the only time I've found any report of him saying that.

 

 

 

 

[MikeRiley]

Theodrin is automatically disqualified as an option, since she was one of the Accepted who tagged along to Salidar.

Also, it is extremely unlikely that Meesana would chose an Accepted as her cover, since that would mean a Lot more work hiding what she is up to. Accepted are supposed to serve Aes Sedai, have no real freedom to move around wherever they may want to go, etc.

 

 

 

Moghedien hid as a servant in Tanchico.

[Graendals favourite]

There is, on Theodrin as well as any others residing at the rebel camp the question of knowledge, most especially the exchange between Aran'gar and Mesaana in KoD: At the Gardens. It was in Aran'gar's pov, but, though I suppose Mesaana might have bluffed to have more knowledge than she did, Mesaana seemed to know exactly where Egwene was, though like most people she thought Elaida was going to break her so she was wrong on that. Aran'gar only knew she was gone, and what she had learned when the rebel Hall met at the Tower Hall in Tel'aran'rhiod. There is great significance because of the small time that had elapsed between Egwene being captured, the Hall meeting and the Forsaken Tea Party. I think it is fairly impossible for anyone who is supposed to be at the rebel camp to naturally find out about Egwene's whereabouts, especially since it was so surprising she was not in a cell like Leane.

 

Other than that, I am going to reread KoD, I have not reread it yet so many times to remember things properly, I cannot even recall if Danelle and Shevan were mention, and if they were, in what circumstances.

[mb]

Theodrin is automatically disqualified as an option, since she was one of the Accepted who tagged along to Salidar.

Also, it is extremely unlikely that Meesana would chose an Accepted as her cover, since that would mean a Lot more work hiding what she is up to. Accepted are supposed to serve Aes Sedai, have no real freedom to move around wherever they may want to go, etc.

Moghedien hid as a servant in Tanchico.

 

Moghedien and Mesaana have different tendencies/personalities.  Also, Moghedien's situation was temporary; Mesaana's is for the most part permanent.

 

[vikingdriver]

There is, on Theodrin as well as any others residing at the rebel camp the question of knowledge, most especially the exchange between Aran'gar and Mesaana in KoD: At the Gardens. It was in Aran'gar's pov, but, though I suppose Mesaana might have bluffed to have more knowledge than she did, Mesaana seemed to know exactly where Egwene was, though like most people she thought Elaida was going to break her so she was wrong on that. Aran'gar only knew she was gone, and what she had learned when the rebel Hall met at the Tower Hall in Tel'aran'rhiod. There is great significance because of the small time that had elapsed between Egwene being captured, the Hall meeting and the Forsaken Tea Party. I think it is fairly impossible for anyone who is supposed to be at the rebel camp to naturally find out about Egwene's whereabouts, especially since it was so surprising she was not in a cell like Leane.

 

Other than that, I am going to reread KoD, I have not reread it yet so many times to remember things properly, I cannot even recall if Danelle and Shevan were mention, and if they were, in what circumstances.

THAT in it's self is what led me to originally think of Leane sharif at first because she too met several of the hints as in dress, tapping of the lips etc; however the mere fact of her stilling canceled that out. Messana just seemed to know way to much of what was happening in Salidar which led me to think that she was splitting herself between the tower and Salidar. And as mentioned in the first post, I was listening to CoS and Theodrin just made sense.

[Graendals favourite]

There is, on Theodrin as well as any others residing at the rebel camp the question of knowledge, most especially the exchange between Aran'gar and Mesaana in KoD: At the Gardens. It was in Aran'gar's pov, but, though I suppose Mesaana might have bluffed to have more knowledge than she did, Mesaana seemed to know exactly where Egwene was, though like most people she thought Elaida was going to break her so she was wrong on that. Aran'gar only knew she was gone, and what she had learned when the rebel Hall met at the Tower Hall in Tel'aran'rhiod. There is great significance because of the small time that had elapsed between Egwene being captured, the Hall meeting and the Forsaken Tea Party. I think it is fairly impossible for anyone who is supposed to be at the rebel camp to naturally find out about Egwene's whereabouts, especially since it was so surprising she was not in a cell like Leane.

 

Other than that, I am going to reread KoD, I have not reread it yet so many times to remember things properly, I cannot even recall if Danelle and Shevan were mention, and if they were, in what circumstances.

THAT in it's self is what led me to originally think of Leane sharif at first because she too met several of the hints as in dress, tapping of the lips etc; however the mere fact of her stilling canceled that out. Messana just seemed to know way to much of what was happening in Salidar which led me to think that she was splitting herself between the tower and Salidar. And as mentioned in the first post, I was listening to CoS and Theodrin just made sense.

Sometimes the problem in finding evidence is you still need to find out what it actually indicates. If something is said straight out, there is of course no question, but then if something were said straight out, there would hardly by a problem to solve in the first place. Usually you get only a few small pieces for the puzzle at a time, and in many cases a small bit of new information can turn the whole picture upside down. So one must be careful of what the evidence actually means, and be certain any solution fits with everything else. Like Faolain disappearing: it would seem much more sinister without reading in New Spring how Aes Sedai act, to know that for a Blue sister to be spying on a Blue Sitter for the Amyrlin Seat, it is hardly mere rudeness, and mere rudeness would have Lelaine imposing Faolain a penance.

 

I think Mesaana shows more knowledge of events in the Tower than events in the Salidar camp, but that she knows what is going on in the latter means she at minimum has contacts there, Aes Sedai who report to her, since contacts without inside information would hardly be sufficient. In KoD it is revealed Mesaana and Aran'gar have had contact over the maintaining the division, too, though Mesaana will certainly not want to trust Aran'gar as a source of information.

 

Of course, I think Mesaana is Shevan for partially the same reason: in my opinion they act the same way, show the same weaknessess, they both seem somehow hesitant most of the time. One reason is the dress. However, the most important reason for me is that most times when Mesaana has had special information, Shevan has been there to hear it, and she has been one sister to rise in power through the books, and she has been in position to have frequent contact with Elaida. Lastly, I can understand Alviarin's orders to Elaida much better if Mesaana is a Sitter in the Tower, then they make sense also on a personal level, that is for a Forsaken.

[Juggler]

I'm just re-reading and I feel it's definately Danelle based just on the book, she's mentioned as few friends, she's in position at the right time just before Alviarin meets messana after speaking to elaida when messana seemed to know things that had occured in the study (inverted eavesdropping weave)there seems to have been almost no reason for Danelle to have been mentioned other than to hint at messana.

[Nightstrike]

I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that Mesaana would have enough time and social skills to, swiftly after being released from the bore, seek up and kill Danelle, successfully impersonate her, and then become a major force for Elaida's coup. All that in a VERY short time-span. Anyway, why would she bother to involve herself personally in the front line, had she had time and skills enough? Makes much more sense to let others do it for her. Above all, it certainly fits her personality and area of expertise much better. I think Danelle might well be Black Ajah, but I just can't see her as Mesaana.

 

In my opinion, Tsutama Rath is the most likely suspect.

 

[BKVMC]

Going on  personality  traits we know of messana  outside of her being  a  chosen she is  more in line with  a Brown sister. also  the bronze colored  shirts  alviarin  notes  is more in line with how sisters  from each ajah  dress IE Brown ajah. Sisters of the  Red are  noted to  be  almost vulgar in their  display of ajah  color  even in  their  dresses  they either wear red outright or  slashes of  red  in  combination with another  color. that makes me think  she would pose as a  brown sister most likely  Danelle  although it could be another Brown but whoever she is it would be someone who blends in  rather than  stands  out.

 

also  Browns  have the  reputation  of being distracted  and not noticing of the " world " so to speak they  would be  less  questioning of little odditys with  a  person  than  any other ajah i  would imagine.

[mb]

I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that Mesaana would have enough time and social skills to, swiftly after being released from the bore, seek up and kill Danelle, successfully impersonate her, and then become a major force for Elaida's coup. All that in a VERY short time-span.

 

Killing Danelle would not have been necessary.  The Encyclopaedia site tells that Mesaana was part of Belal's plot to trap Rand; that was in Dragon Reborn (3rd book).  Danelle's first action was in Shadow Rising (4th book) which could have been enough time to set up the alias; that other sister you mentioned was in the prequel.

 

[Nightstrike]

Killing Danelle would not have been necessary.

Wasn't it? Are you suggesting she spirited her away somewhere for some reason? That's not any easier than killing her, but I guess it's possible.

 

The Encyclopaedia site tells that Mesaana was part of Belal's plot to trap Rand; that was in Dragon Reborn (3rd book).

Are you talking about Encyclopaedia WoT site? This is from that site:

Mesaana lives over three hundred years during the Age of Legends. She turns to the Shadow after being turned down for a research job at the Collam Daan. (LoC,Prologue)

Mesaana sets up schools to teach children the glories of the Great Lord. Slow learners are punished by death. (LoC,Ch2)

The thirteen Forsaken meet with the Great Lord in the Pit of Doom. Lews Therin and his companions seal the Bore, trapping the Forsaken for over three thousand years.

After escaping the Bore, Mesaana establishes herself in the White Tower.

Mesaana is part of Be'lal's plan to trap Rand at the Stone of Tear. (LoC,Ch6)

After Rahvin's death, Mesaana visits Shayol Ghul twice but finds only a very tall Myrddraal that will not speak to her. (LoC,Prologue)

Demandred meets with Mesaana, Semirhage and Graendal and passes on the orders of the Great Lord to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." Mesaana thinks the plan is a gamble. (LoC,Prologue)

Demandred has another meeting with Mesaana and Graendal, but Semirhage does not show. Mesaana vents on Semirhage in front of Graendal and lets slip that she is in the White Tower. (LoC,Ch6)

Be'lal's plan is in book 3 (just as you said), but first mention of hearing that Mesaana is in the tower is in book 6.

 

 

Danelle's first action was in Shadow Rising (4th book) which could have been enough time to set up the alias; that other sister you mentioned was in the prequel.

But we don't know whether Mesaana was in the Tower in book 4? Or, if so, which alias she had back then. Tsutama Rath was in NS (as you say), but she was in exile for many years after that. She was called back by Elaida in book 4.

 

 

 

 

[Nightstrike]

From encyclopaedia WoT:

In his role as Tairen High Lord Samon, Be'lal promotes hatred of Illian and Tar Valon. (TDR,Ch32)

Be'lal plans to use Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve as bait for a trap. He has summoned thirteen Fades to take care of them afterwards. (TDR,Ch51)

Be'lal sends the Black Ajah to set the hedgehog trap for Moiraine so he expects her to be out of the picture. (TDR,Ch55)

Be'lal confronts Rand in the Heart of the Stone and goads him to take Callandor. Before he can kill Rand, Moiraine arrives and balefires him. (TDR,Ch55)

 

 

From encyclopaedia WoT:

Elaida leads an effort to oust Siuan for treason. She is raised to the Amyrlin Seat. (TSR,Ch47)

 

From the Timeline:

Winter - Late Spring 999 NE The Dragon Reborn

 

Late Spring - Mid Summer 999 NE   The Shadow Rising

 

There's not many months between Be'lal's plan and Elaida's coup. I don't think Mesaana could have pulled off becoming in the front line of Elaida's coup and leader of the whole operation. Much more likely that she had others do it for her. People that knew the ways and people of Tar Valon since at least a couple of decades, not a few months (in disguise as someone else).

 

 

 

 

 

[Cybertrolloc]

There's not many months between Be'lal's plan and Elaida's coup. I don't think Mesaana could have pulled off becoming in the front line of Elaida's coup and leader of the whole operation. Much more likely that she had others do it for her. People that knew the ways and people of Tar Valon since at least a couple of decades, not a few months (in disguise as someone else).

I think we have enough examples of various Forsaken running concurrent and unrelated schemes (even badly) not to worry about that too much, and I hope no one's saying everything involved in Elaida's coup happened overnight ;) Mesaana could have had as long as say 3/4 of a year to set up an identity in the tower after all.

[Nightstrike]

I think we have enough examples of various Forsaken running concurrent and unrelated schemes (even badly) not to worry about that too much,

Graendal- compulsion, no similar coup.

Rahvin- compulsion, no similar coup.

Sammael- Probably no similar coup. Not surrounded by channelers.

Be'lal- Probably no similar coup. Not surrounded by channelers.

Moghedien- no similar coup.

Demandred- not much known. He could have led lots of schemes, but he's had a lot of time to do it.

Ishamael- crazy man... lots of string pulling, probably no similar coup... Lots of time on his hands.

Semirhage- Compulsion, assasinations, infiltration. That's something similar, but most likely during a longer time.

Lanfear- nothing similar.

Asmodean- nothing similar.

Aginor- nothing similar.

Balthamel- Infiltration and assasinations. But, still, nothing similar.

 

and I hope no one's saying everything involved in Elaida's coup happened overnight ;) Mesaana could have had as long as say 3/4 of a year to set up an identity in the tower after all.

We've got no reason to expect that she's had 3/4 of a year. She was established in the Tower by book 6. The rest is unknown. It's not easy to find a victim that resembles you, kill her and assume her identity. Preparations and research are needed. The "assuming of identity" isn't easy. Getting to know the Tower isn't easy. Pulling off the coup isn't easy. Meanwhile she's stuck among strangers in a strange place during strange times. Surrounded by channelers that belong to the Light (most of them). It's safer, easier and more effective to pull the strings of the Black Ajah. Let them do the dirty work.

 

[Majsju]

Danelle is friendless and described as 'dreamy', which combined with a somewhat natural solitude of Brown sisters makes her the perfect candidate for someone who wants to assume an existing identity. Noone knows her that well, and if she does accidently slip, being a dreamy Brown would serve as a great excuse.

And we saw from Semis treatment of Cabriana that extracting the required information is quite possible. And if we look at the timing there, it is roughly three weeks between Semis interrogation and Halimas arrival in Salidar.

 

And the interesting thing with Danelle, is that after her participation in the coup, with her being one of the keyplayers, she has drifted away into obscurity. One would think that after such a feat, she would remain one of Elaidas closest allies. But strangely, she did not.

 

Danelle is the only candidate that does fit the bill, and since RJ said we should be able to figure Mesaanas identity out, I would say that we can consider Mesaana = Danelle as confirmed.

 

As for Tsutama being Mesaana...According to RJ, there are enough clues to Mesaanas identity before the release of COT. Anyone pro-Tsutama care to enlighten us what strange things we see Tsutama doing in the Tower here?

 

[Nasty Butler]

RJ did also say that we have all the info we need to figure out who killed Asmodean, yet no one has been able to establish any theory as fact.  I'm on book 9 right now and I'm trying to watch closely for the identities of some of the forsaken, namely Demandred and Mesaana.

[Mr Ares]

RJ did also say that we have all the info we need to figure out who killed Asmodean, yet no one has been able to establish any theory as fact.

Except Graendal. If not fact, in the absence of confirmation, it is by far the best (and only) viable theory we have.

[Nightstrike]

As for Tsutama being Mesaana...According to RJ, there are enough clues to Mesaanas identity before the release of COT. Anyone pro-Tsutama care to enlighten us what strange things we see Tsutama doing in the Tower here?

It is correct that Tsutama hasn't actively been DOING suspicious things before CoT. Her being summoned back after 15 years makes her easy to impersonate, though. Tsutama has become even more of a suspect (of "something", at the very least) AFTER CoT.

 

On the other hand, how likely is it that Mesaana would actively be DOING suspicious things just after infiltrating the Tower. I'd say that it isn't very likely. That's a reason NOT to suspect Danelle.