morgase and tam

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

I've been wondering whether the fact that morgase has "heard two rivers speech before" means that she met tam sometime in the distant past. any thoughts?

[mb]

No other Two Rivers person besides Tam was known to go outside the region before she met Rand.

 

[Majsju]

They had most likely not met before, since Tam should have left his service with the Illian army shortly after the Aiel war ended, and at that time Moiraine was safely locked up in the White Tower.

And even if by some insanely incredible fluke Moiraine had been the one to "find" baby-Rand, it would have been Kari al'Thor approaching her, and Kari would of course not have had the slightest trace of a TR accent.

[ROB_88]

And even if by some insanely incredible fluke Moiraine had been the one to "find" baby-Rand, it would have been Kari al'Thor approaching her, and Kari would of course not have had the slightest trace of a TR accent.

 

what does Moiraine have to do with this? the question was about Morgase. are you mixing this up?

[Majsju]

Oops ;D

 

I had taken off my glasses, believing I could easily read these boards without them. Apparently, that was not the case ;D

[mb]

From the scene where Morgase meets Rand, it seems her only knowledge of Two Rivers was from books.

Whether she met any person from there, she does not say one way or the other.

 

It might have been probable that Tam passed through Caemlyn on his way back home.  Morgase seemed to spend all of her time in the palace before she escaped from Rahvin; most probable way for the two to meet would have been for Tam to come to the palace, the books do not tell if this happened or not.

 

[Mr Ares]

From the scene where Morgase meets Rand, it seems her only knowledge of Two Rivers was from books. Whether she met any person from there, she does not say one way or the other.

Considering she specifically states she has heard TR speech when she was young, and recognises it in Rand, I would say that the only way she could have heard it from a book is if the Westlands have audiobooks.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

No other Two Rivers person was known to go outside the region before she met Rand.

You're wrong.

 

Tam was a member of the Companions of Illian.

 

-

 

Besides, why is it beyond the realms of possibility that the ruler of a state might not have heard an accent before ... even if she would have had little or no reason to go to said region?

[mb]

From re-reading the scene, I change my mind about her only knowledge coming from books.  Morgase comments on hearing Two Rivers people when she was little.  Perhaps she was brought to the location on a trip.

 

No other Two Rivers person was known to go outside the region before she met Rand.

You're wrong.

Tam was a member of the Companions of Illian.

 

I meant besides Tam.  I shall shortly edit the comment.

 

[lordofsoup]

Tam was one of the most important soldiers in Illian, it is possible that there was a conferance that both he and morgase were at, and one of Morgase's people had heard two rivers speach and commented on it to her about Tam

[Alderthal]

Only Tam from Emond's field left the TR before. But the Two Rivers also encompasses some other villages and the Taren Ferry. So it's possible Morgase has met someone from the TR to recognize the speech who isn't Tam.

[Chel Vanin]

Was Kari al'thor an Illianer? I forget how she was described as looking.

 

And it's possible that Tam and Morgase met by some random chance but I think the idea that she visited near the TR region is more likely. Who knows?

[lgautam]

I think Kari was Andoran.

As for Morgase visiting Two Rivers, that can't have happened - unless she was disguised or something. It's mentioned several times that Two River folk are hardly aware that they have Queen. Surely they would remember a visit from Queen Morgase of Andor?

[ShadowsFell]

There was a nice conversation about that on the WoT re-read Tor is sponsoring.  Kari was Andoran, yes, so it is likely that Tam had spent time in Caemlyn on the way from/back to Two Rivers.

 

There was also a wild theory that Tam and Morgase will wind up together lol.  Not sure how much stock I put in that.

[MikeRiley]

If Morgase heard the accent when she was younger, she might not have been queen at the time. A lady coming down to Taren Ferry or so might not attract so much notice that it's the talk of the region for a few decades.

[Kaznen]

Kari was not just an(other) Andoran but also from Camylean(?).

 

I personally think she was closely related to Reene Harfor or Lini.

 

After he left the companions at TV they would have naturally gone through Camylen on their way to TR.  So maybe they stopped to visit her family, even the ones in the palace.  BTW Gareth Bryne and Eliada would still have been in TV.

 

So Morgase, about to have her first child, would want to see Kari's new baby boy if Kari and Tam were visiting Lini or Mistress Harfor.  There is a ironic scene I think of, were Morgase shows baby Rand to young boy Galad and Galad thinks Rand is his brother and everybody laughs.

 

And Tam, being a formally high ranking officer fresh from the war, would probably have been questioned about the blood snows by Morgase.

[benr]

This thread has some of the most wild speculation on this forum!  Not that that's necessarily a bad thing...but there's no basis in the story for any of it.  Morgase could have heard Two Rivers accents from any number of sources.  My thought is that the chances of her having met up with Tam is extremely remote - almost zilch.  There's enough coincidence in the plot without adding that!

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

This thread has some of the most wild speculation on this forum!  Not that that's necessarily a bad thing...but there's no basis in the story for any of it.  Morgase could have heard Two Rivers accents from any number of sources.  My thought is that the chances of her having met up with Tam is extremely remote - almost zilch.  There's enough coincidence in the plot without adding that!

Exactly. It's ridiculous.

 

Morgase has heard the accent. Big deal.

 

The options available are:

 

1. She has been to the Two Rivers, probably before she was queen.

2. Someone from the Two Rivers has talked to her in another part of Andor.

3. She is lying.

 

That's it. Period. No need to invent events. Why? Because it's totally irrelevent.

 

When people say that "Nobody ever leaves the Two Rivers" try not to take it literally. It's a stereotypical image, just like all Brits have bad teeth, the Germans are efficient, the Americans are all fat, etc..

[ROB_88]

Kari was not just an(other) Andoran but also from Camylean(?).

 

I personally think she was closely related to Reene Harfor or Lini.

 

what do you base this on?

there is no proof of that

[Kaznen]

Moraine was the one who found out she was from the city.  And told Rand, Verin, and Suine in tGH.

 

As far as Kari's relatives...How would a lady of Morgase's standing (she was head of her house before she was queen) know about the Two River's accent.  He was from a part of Andor nobody goes to unless they have business there.

 

And Two Rivers is just those four villages that are located between the two rivers.

 

Of course RJ said something once about the second prequel book being about how Tam left the two rivers and went from a groom to a being second in command of Illian's version of the Queen's Guard to a farmer back in the back end of nowhere where he came from.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

How would a lady of Morgase's standing (she was head of her house before she was queen) know about the Two River's accent. 

You're confusing social class with an accent. We see heads of houses talking to commoners on a regular basis.

 

Why is it beyond the realms of possibility that Morgase heard the accent before?

 

The simple answer is, it isn't.

He was from a part of Andor nobody goes to unless they have business there.

And yet there's a booming trade in Two Rivers Tabac.... Methinks it might take more than the one man caravan that is Fain to cater for the demand.

 

The "nobody comes in" "nobody ever leaves" is a stereotypical image. It's RJ playing to the parochial image he wants to create.

And Two Rivers is just those four villages that are located between the two rivers

Yeah, that are world famous for their tabacco industry.

 

How do you supply what appears to be continent-wide demand for your product without interacting with the rest of the rest of the world?

 

The answer is, that you can't.

[MikeRiley]

It seemed like the stuff was moved up to Taren Ferry to be sold and merchants came there. Doesn't Mat mention his father going up that way a few times? The accents would still be the same anyway and it's likely Morgaise did go at least that far, maybe even as some coronation thing surveying the land.

 

She's been known to slip out of the palace dressed as a commoner from time to time, too. This would put her in contact with backwoods accents if people ever thought to visit "the biggest city in the world" as all the locals a hundred miles around would call it.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

It seemed like the stuff was moved up to Taren Ferry to be sold and merchants came there.....

 

She's been known to slip out of the palace dressed as a commoner from time to time, too....

Exactly.

 

Personally, I think that RJ wanted to create a secluded little series of hamlets, and then got carried away with the details. No biggie.

 

It just means there are some inconsistancies.

 

Similar to the whole Aes Sedai and One Power strength deal... where Moiraine says she'd need X number of sisters to deal with a fist of trollocs. RJ revised on the run there, why not here?

 

What it doesn't mean is that there has to be some grand overarching plotline that pulls Tam and Morgase together.

 

***

As an aside, doesn't seem a little odd that given the popularity of Two Rivers tabac the world over (I mean Aiel Clan Chiefs want it and they live in the middle of a fr*cking desert), that there's been no efforts to produce it on a large scale?

[MikeRiley]

And no tax collectors in generations.

[Kaznen]

Merchant caravans come down to the TR to buy wool and Tabac.  So they have business there.

 

Now back to Tam and Morgase.  Aiel war is just over, the Queen has only gotten reports given sketchy details about what is happening at TV.

 

In camoes Tam.  An Andoran pass through the the city on his way to TR.  He was also, basicily, a Lt. Colonel at the battle.  He would know more about what happened and is going on up north the reports would say and messengers would know.  She would want to talk to him.