tower of ghenjei

[althor666]

ok, this is a little over the top.

but, in the whole series, everybody who is involved with the tower of ghenjei is either dead or a hero, (an example is, Birgitte, when she tells perrin to be careful about the tower when he chases slayer and sees him go into the tower, she also stresses that its not advisable to enter esp. in world of dreams), so, i was thinking, what if moiraine can come back as a hero, and not as a human.(ie, similar to arthur hawkwing, who can only be summoned by the horn of valere). it is also well established that going out of the tower is close to impossible, and also considering slayer (may be the dark one) goin in there, maybe the finn are actually darkfriends, considering the fact that shaithan can revive ppl. This can also explain how mat has "the dark ones own luck" in a way

 

so what do you think?

[Mr Ares]

So many things wrong it's hard to know where to begin. Everybody involved with the Tower is either dead or a Hero? Like Mat, who is going there? Moiraine? Noal? Thom? Perrin? None of them are dead, none are Heroes. Only one half of Slayer died (one did live and one did die but both are), but we don't know which one. Moiraine isn't dead, so she will comeback as herself, albeit most likely severed. You don't become a Hero by wandering about in the ToG. We don't know if Slayer went in there, he might just have made it look like he did. He is certainly not Shai'tan, he is Luc Mantear (Rand's maternal uncle) and Isam Mandragoran (Lan's cousin). The Finn are not Darkfriends. Mat's luck comes from the dagger. The Finn have not demonstrated a power to revive people.

[Casco]

1. everybody who is involved with the tower of ghenjei is either dead or a hero No they are not. The most are dead, but they cant live forever. In AoL it seems like many did enter the tower and did survive.

2. an example is, Birgitte, when she tells perrin to be careful about the tower when he chases slayer and sees him go into the tower, she also stresses that its not advisable to enter esp. in world of dreams She is a hero for other reasons. She maby did enter the tower in one of her lifes (she know how to enter) but thats not why she is a hero.

3. so, i was thinking, what if moiraine can come back as a hero, and not as a human She is not dead, but she will become a hero in TG ill think (alive hero) helping Rand. She will become a hero for that, not becouse of the tower.

4. and also considering slayer (may be the dark one) He is not the dark one, it would be pretty lame if the dark one did die from an arrow from Perrin? he did get realy hurt by his arrow. He might be a darkfriend or one of the forsaken, but he is NOT the dark one :)

5. maybe the finn are actually darkfriends, considering the fact that shaithan can revive ppl. I dont follow you.... Finns are the dark one? You know that shaithan and the dark one is the same right?

6. This can also explain how mat has "the dark ones own luck" in a way I still dont follow you.. Mat was never revived outside the terángreal, he didnt die. Rand did stop him from dying. Mat was however revived later, by Rand.

Mat did get his luck from the dagger, and his memories from the finns. The memmories are from other people being in the terángreal.

 

You realy mixed alot up when you readed the books :D

[mb]

The Horn only summons the Heroes that are in Telaranrhiod; not any other Hero.

 

The term darkfriend cannot apply to the Aelfinn or Eelfinn; I think the term could only apply to humans.  The Aelfinn & Eelfinn are both a different race (or two different races).  Nor does their power come from the Dark One.

 

Becoming a Hero I take is the Pattern's decision.  "Need" is probably the deciding factor.

 

Mat had his luck long before he went through either door.

 

[Mr Ares]

4. and also considering slayer (may be the dark one) He might be a darkfriend or one of the forsaken, but he is NOT the dark one :)

He is certainly not one of the Chosen, nor is he an ordinary Darkfriend - his abilities are unique, so far as we know. Also, Slayer is Rand's uncle and Lan's cousin.

[kilika]

Mat's luck comes from the dagger.

 

not saying his luck doesn't come from the dagger but i don't understand how, can u explain? cheers

[Casco]

4. and also considering slayer (may be the dark one) He might be a darkfriend or one of the forsaken, but he is NOT the dark one :)

He is certainly not one of the Chosen, nor is he an ordinary Darkfriend - his abilities are unique, so far as we know. Also, Slayer is Rand's uncle and Lan's cousin.

Ah yes sorry.Luc and Slayer (Isam mandragoran) are the same person now, merged in to one person :) I realy want to know why  Gitara Moroso convinces Lord Luc that the outcome of Tarmon Gai'don depends upon him going to the Blight? Gitara must have known that he would become a DF there.

[Roxinos]

not saying his luck doesn't come from the dagger but i don't understand how, can u explain? cheers

 

Neither do I.

 

This is the first time I've heard it suggested that Mat's luck comes from the link he had to the dagger.

 

As far as I'd always been aware, Mat had always been rather lucky, and his luck just increased as his ta'veren-ness came out.

[MikeRiley]

4. and also considering slayer (may be the dark one) He might be a darkfriend or one of the forsaken, but he is NOT the dark one :)

He is certainly not one of the Chosen, nor is he an ordinary Darkfriend - his abilities are unique, so far as we know. Also, Slayer is Rand's uncle and Lan's cousin.

Ah yes sorry.Luc and Slayer (Isam mandragoran) are the same person now, merged in to one person :) I realy want to know why  Gitara Moroso convinces Lord Luc that the outcome of Tarmon Gai'don depends upon him going to the Blight? Gitara must have known that he would become a DF there.

 

Foretelling can be pretty cryptic. She might have known but she probably didn't. Either way, Luc needed to go into the Blight so he would do things that would cause things that would cause more things. Sort of like the Cairhienen granting water rights to Aiel, getting the tree, cutting the tree just so Rand could be born on Dragonmount. We don't know his specific purpose in the pattern yet, it may have already been fulfilled too. If Gitara knew he'd become a darkfriend there, she still would have known he needed to do it for Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Did Luc's disappearance have anything to do with Tigraine running off? I know Gitara sent her away too.

[CUBAREY]

I realy want to know why  Gitara Moroso convinces Lord Luc that the outcome of Tarmon Gai'don depends upon him going to the Blight? Gitara must have known that he would become a DF there.

 

Perhapa Gitara knew that if Luc was around Tigraine would never of run away and without that no Dragon Reborn.

[Mr Ares]

Mat's luck comes from the dagger.

not saying his luck doesn't come from the dagger but i don't understand how, can u explain? cheers

The first clue is to be found in TGH 7. Verin says: "He has been linked to the dagger along time... He may already be changed eyond the reach of a full Healing." So, the dagger has wrought some change in Mat, and we can't expect it all to go away. But the second, and most important key comes later. TDR 30 really helps us date his luck - he always won more than he lost, but with Hurin and the Shienarans he won six or eight tosses in a row (we see him dicing near the start of TGH, and he did so often on the way to TV, although over time it was just for coppoers, and then not for money at all), and after his Healing he wins every toss. So his luck improves after gaining the dagger, and again after being severed from it. This, coupled with the fact we should expect some permanent change in Mat after the length of time he spent with the dagger, and the most noticeable change is his luck, the most likely explanation is that it has something to do with the dagger. Furthermore, we see his luck manifesting in a way that is very different to what we see of ta'veren in the others.

[Chel Vanin]

Its possible that Mat's luck comes from the dagger, this is actually the first I'd heard about that, but it could be that. I personally don't think so but that doesn't mean much.

 

Here's my take on Mat's luck

 

I think its much more simple. Mat's luck comes from being ta'veren and him altering chance. At some point its mentioned that Artur Hawkwing won every time he tossed dice, or something to that effect, so we know ta'veren can produce such an effect. Lots of people ask, "well then why don't Perrin and Rand have similar effects?"

 

Well first neither Perrin nor Rand dice or gamble much, in fact I can't remember a time when they did. So maybe they do have that kind of luck, they just don't utilize it.

 

Secondly, I think that Rand and Perrin actually are both very lucky. How many times has Rand sneezed/bent over/looked up at the exact moment someone shoots an arrow at him? Fains whitecloaks in Caemlyn and the birds altering the rebel Illianer's (forgot his name) shot come to mind. If thats not ta'veren luck I dont know what is.

 

With Perrin it might be a bit more of a stretch, but I believe he also just barely dodged an arrow by some freak chance in the Wolf Dream the first time he saw Slayer. Not to mention all the battles he's survived, The Wells, attack on shaido, etc. Matter of fact it was only "luck" that kept him alive when facing Aram.

 

The first clue is to be found in TGH 7. Verin says: "He has been linked to the dagger along time... He may already be changed eyond the reach of a full Healing." So, the dagger has wrought some change in Mat, and we can't expect it all to go away. But the second, and most important key comes later. TDR 30 really helps us date his luck - he always won more than he lost, but with Hurin and the Shienarans he won six or eight tosses in a row (we see him dicing near the start of TGH, and he did so often on the way to TV, although over time it was just for coppoers, and then not for money at all), and after his Healing he wins every toss. So his luck improves after gaining the dagger, and again after being severed from it.

 

When Verin says this, I think the resulting change is that Mat retains a little of his suspiciousness that he got from the dagger. He certainly doesn't trust AS a hair afterwords, not that he trusted them much before, but in his POV's after the healing and even into Salidar/Ebou Dar he is always talking about not trusting AS "even with a medallion."

 

Its possible that healing Mat's dagger improved his luck but I'm not so sure. Mat says in a POV that his luck seems to run in cycles and that sometimes he'll win every toss no matter the game, every time. Other times he wins a lot but not all , but he always wins more than he loses. I think the night in TV was just a night when his luck was at its peak, when he would win every time no matter what.

 

Furthermore, we see his luck manifesting in a way that is very different to what we see of ta'veren in the others.

 

Maybe. Like I said earlier, neither Rand nor Perrin dice much so who's to say they wouldn't be lucky as well? Even if they weren't as lucky as Mat, who's to say ta'veren don't affect chance in different ways?

 

This post isn't meant to say the dagger theory is ridiculous, because its not, this post is simply to say I disagree and why I disagree.

[Yllek]

I always thought that the effects of the dagger for Mat were the holes in his memory and that his luck was ... not so much tavreen-ness, but his sole or who he is.  Like another poster pointed out, all 3 of them are pretty darn lucky. 

[MikeRiley]

I don't think it's his dagger. As was said above, the change was his complete mistrust of Aes Sedai. He is called Gambler in Tear, he has dice tumbling in his head whenever something big is about to happen.. He's lucky. I would say it has everything to do with his being ta'veren and spun out for a very specific role, much like Rand spun out as the Dragon Reborn. So it's not likely Rand or Perrin have Mat's luck, else they'd have the dice too and Mat wouldn't be the Gambler, he'd be a gambler.

[Mr Ares]

Its possible that Mat's luck comes from the dagger, this is actually the first I'd heard about that.

Funny, this theory has been around for a while. Surely I can't be the only one who rememebers it?

 

Secondly, I think that Rand and Perrin actually are both very lucky.

While all three do twist chance, and all three do have a lot of luck, Mat is different to the others in how his manifests. Rand mentions that the good luck is balanced with bad. Someone survives a fall with no injury, someone else dies in a freak accident. Mat is presented as the most lucky man in the world - not just at dice, but at anything random. Even at worst, he still wins more than he loses, but at his best he wins and wins and wins. It is one sided, in a way it isn't for the others. There is more to it than that, though. We also have the dice, a unique Mat phenomenon. Why do the other ta'veren not have this? Because it is not ta'veren. It is something unique to Mat, so we should look for something associated wit Mat, not the others (one could point out that Fain doesn't display such luck, despite his time with the dagger, but he does display a lot of powers, that are not his originally. He also has been changed, so if anything this supports it being the dagger), and the thing that springs to mind is the dagger.

 

When Verin says this, I think the resulting change is that Mat retains a little of his suspiciousness that he got from the dagger. He certainly doesn't trust AS a hair afterwords, not that he trusted them much before, but in his POV's after the healing and even into Salidar/Ebou Dar he is always talking about not trusting AS "even with a medallion."

Exactly, he didn't trust them before. And surely he has reason not to trust them. They twist the truth, manipulate all those around them. What reason does he have to trust them? We don't see a Mat who is especially disinclined to trust, as he was under the dagger. He just doesn't trust AS.

 

Its possible that healing Mat's dagger improved his luck but I'm not so sure. Mat says in a POV that his luck seems to run in cycles and that sometimes he'll win every toss no matter the game, every time. Other times he wins a lot but not all , but he always wins more than he loses. I think the night in TV was just a night when his luck was at its peak, when he would win every time no matter what.

Mat's luck can be seen in three stages. The start of the series and before, when he wins more than he loses. His time with the Shienarans and Hurin, when he was winning several tosses in a row - an improvement in his luck we can date to the period he held the dagger. And that night in TV and thereafter, where his luck allows him to win every toss, when his luck is at its peak. It was never like this before. So we can date this to after the Healing from the dagger. It manifested the first improvement, and the Healing manifested the second. We don't hear of any increase over the period he held it, just a jump from before to during to after.

 

I always thought that the effects of the dagger for Mat were the holes in his memory and that his luck was ... not so much tavreen-ness, but his sole or who he is.  Like another poster pointed out, all 3 of them are pretty darn lucky.

The holes were another part of it, but the luck we can clearly associate with the dagger. The others have luck, but not in the same way, or to the same degree.

 

I don't think it's his dagger. As was said above, the change was his complete mistrust of Aes Sedai.

It is not a change if it was there already.

He is called Gambler in Tear

After the dagger...

he has dice tumbling in his head whenever something big is about to happen

After the dagger...

He's lucky.

Especially after the dagger.

I would say it has everything to do with his being ta'veren and spun out for a very specific role, much like Rand spun out as the Dragon Reborn.

Ta'veren and spun out for a particular role (Hero) are not the same thing. It should be noted that Rand was clearly indentified by Hawkwing as someone known to him, but neither Mat nor Perrin were. It seems doubtful Mat is a Hero. As for ta'veren, it is different to Mat than it is for the others. The dice only appeared after the dagger, they are unique to Mat. It is thus doubtful that this, something completely different to what the others display, should be as the result of the same thing they all have, as opposed to the result of something unique to Mat.

[Nightstrike]

I'm pretty sure Mat's luck comes from the Dagger. From Dragoncon'05:

Q2 – Part 1: In TDR, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his one power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter’angreal out of the tower cache, one of which was a ter’angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat’s really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began. Is this a connection or coincidence?

 

RJ: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One’s own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn’t a gift from Lanfear, though.

It started after Mat was Healed from the effects of the Dagger. And Fain was never Healed. Fain is a special case in other ways, too.

 

[Nightstrike]

OK, I searched Mat on Encyclopaedia WoT

 

TDR,Ch30 - Mat's luck was always average at best. After Shadar Logoth his luck became very good. After his is Healed, it becomes phenomenal.

 

Ten Aes Sedai Heal Mat's link to the ruby dagger using the white fluted wand sa'angreal. During the process he shouts in the Old Tongue about a battle between Manetheren troops and Trollocs. (TDR,Ch18)

 

The mentions of the dice are ordered chronologically on the same site. Here's the first entry:

TDR,Ch52  Mat feels the dice as he plans to enter the Stone of Tear.

 

My idea: One of the things that is different between Fain and Mat is that Mat is ta'veren and Fain isn't. I believe Mat's luck comes from a combination between the SL Dagger and him being ta'veren. Obviously, this would mean that while he was Healed from the "evil effect" of the Dagger, he still retained the "lucky effect". The tumbling of the dice started after he was Healed, so maybe that is a result of the Healing.

 

 

[MikeRiley]

I don't think it's his dagger. As was said above, the change was his complete mistrust of Aes Sedai.

It is not a change if it was there already.

He is called Gambler in Tear

After the dagger...

he has dice tumbling in his head whenever something big is about to happen

After the dagger...

He's lucky.

Especially after the dagger.

I would say it has everything to do with his being ta'veren and spun out for a very specific role, much like Rand spun out as the Dragon Reborn.

Ta'veren and spun out for a particular role (Hero) are not the same thing. It should be noted that Rand was clearly indentified by Hawkwing as someone known to him, but neither Mat nor Perrin were. It seems doubtful Mat is a Hero. As for ta'veren, it is different to Mat than it is for the others. The dice only appeared after the dagger, they are unique to Mat. It is thus doubtful that this, something completely different to what the others display, should be as the result of the same thing they all have, as opposed to the result of something unique to Mat.

 

The only way I can see the dagger doing all that is if it purely magnifies what's already in him. When he is called Gambler, they use it as a title, not as a profession. That title wasn't something the dagger could give him. He already mistrusted Aes Sedai, but after the dagger it became complete mistrust. We see him briefly speak the old tongue before Shadar Logoth in book 1 but it becomes fully usable by him after being Healed of the dagger's taint. The dice start rolling around the time he figures out he can speak the old tongue and his luck increases. Also remember, Perrin's unique ability to talk with wolves didn't manifest itself until Elyas guided him - after Mat got the dagger. The timing was the same. Those things just take time, but I believe both were born with those specific abilities, to serve specific roles in events leading up to and during the Last Battle. I don't believe the dagger gave him anything. The fact that we learn of Mat's after he's Healed is irrelevant, we also see normal ta'veren work around him as often as around Perrin and it's different from his abilities so it's not that either. I said in my last post it has everything to do with his being ta'veren, but I meant that as a "this is just who he is". He was born for that role and with his abilities.

 

You have 3 guys growing up, connected to each other - linked even, almost in the same manner that Moridin and Rand are. One is the Dragon Reborn himself. The other is a wolfbrother. Mat is.. Mat? When the other two are special, it doesn't sit right with me that one is plain. Mat has his abilities the same as Perrin. What are those abilities? His luck and being the Gambler.

 

Do you have to be tied to the Horn in order for the pattern to spin you out for a specific purpose? If so, then Mat and Perrin are both tied to the horn, despite Hawkwing's not recognizing them. There are prophecies for both Perrin and Mat that have been around considerably longer than they have. Unless of course, the prophets were good guessers.

 

[Kaznen]

The only effects the dagger had on Mat was his memory loss.

 

Yeah, his luck may have started changing after SL but Perrin's eyes changed from brown to gold and Rand started channeling more often and effecting people he comes in contact with.  So all their ta'veren powers started manifesting and the same time.

 

The only time Mat's luck goes bad is in ED when, unknown to him, Rand was being held prisoner by the TAS.  It seemed to be the pattern's way of telling him Rand was in trouble.

 

Something else about Mat against Perrin and Rand is the other two plan and deliberate their actions very carefully.  Mat just acts and makes his plans on the fly.  When he sat down and started planning operations they went off so well that Mat hadn't excepted the impact they received.

[Nightstrike]

The only effects the dagger had on Mat was his memory loss.

 

Yeah, his luck may have started changing after SL but Perrin's eyes changed from brown to gold and Rand started channeling more often and effecting people he comes in contact with.  So all their ta'veren powers started manifesting and the same time.

Then how do you explain RJ saying this:

When they say that Mat has the Dark One’s own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn’t a gift from Lanfear, though.

"In a way", meaning that it is not exactly the case. But something very near to the truth... (evil in nature).

 

 

 

[Chel Vanin]

"In a way", meaning that it is not exactly the case. But something very near to the truth... (evil in nature).

 

Like I said earlier, its possible, but you're stretching it to say that "in a way" automatically means SL. That quote of RJ's doesn't say right out where mat got his luck, and I just don't see it being the dagger.

 

TDR,Ch30 - Mat's luck was always average at best. After Shadar Logoth his luck became very good. After his is Healed, it becomes phenomenal.

 

In LoC, when Mat is gambling in Ebou Dar with the Seanchan spy, he loses eleven tosses in a row. So his luck didn't just permanently increase by being healed from the dagger. He also explains about his luck being in waves in that chapter. I see where you're ideas are coming from, with Mat's luck seeming to increase with the dagger and after, but I think that could also be explained by the "wave" effect of his luck.

 

Someone previously mentioned that possibly the dagger magnified what was already in Mat, and I kind of like this idea, although I can't decide if I agree or not. It is interesting that his mistrust/speaking in old tongue/dice rolling in his head all increased or started after the healing, but two of the three were already there before he took the dagger and the third could be an effect developed over time. An example would be that Perrin couldn't talk to wolves very well for the first book but by book two he was sending his image and conversing. Maybe Mat's luck has simply taken time to manifest completely.

 

Or maybe he got it from the dagger. I  just don't see why luck would come along with the dagger which is from a city consumed by evil, just doesn't seem like a side-effect one would expect.

[Majsju]

 

 

Yeah, his luck may have started changing after SL but Perrin's eyes changed from brown to gold and Rand started channeling more often and effecting people he comes in contact with.  So all their ta'veren powers started manifesting and the same time.

 

 

 

Uhm, Perrin being a wolfbrother and Rand being a channeler has absolutely nothing to do with them being ta'veren.

[Cillian]

The only effects the dagger had on Mat was his memory loss.

 

Yeah, his luck may have started changing after SL but Perrin's eyes changed from brown to gold and Rand started channeling more often and effecting people he comes in contact with.  So all their ta'veren powers started manifesting and the same time.

 

Channeling isn't a Ta'veren power (you know this), neither is being a Wolfbrother. Ta'veren aren't spun out like heroes are, the wheel chooses them. Rand, Perrin and Mat weren't always Ta'veren nor will they be for the rest of their lives, they became so shortly before the story picks up in TEOTW.

 

Like was pointed out before, Mat's luck was average before Shadar Logoth.

[Krakalakachkn]

Secondly, I think that Rand and Perrin actually are both very lucky.

While all three do twist chance, and all three do have a lot of luck, Mat is different to the others in how his manifests. Rand mentions that the good luck is balanced with bad. Someone survives a fall with no injury, someone else dies in a freak accident. Mat is presented as the most lucky man in the world - not just at dice, but at anything random. Even at worst, he still wins more than he loses, but at his best he wins and wins and wins. It is one sided, in a way it isn't for the others. There is more to it than that, though. We also have the dice, a unique Mat phenomenon. Why do the other ta'veren not have this? Because it is not ta'veren. It is something unique to Mat, so we should look for something associated wit Mat, not the others (one could point out that Fain doesn't display such luck, despite his time with the dagger, but he does display a lot of powers, that are not his originally. He also has been changed, so if anything this supports it being the dagger), and the thing that springs to mind is the dagger.

 

We're told that Fain's powers come from a combination of the DO's powers and from Mordeth's (SL's) powers.  The books state that Fain was once a darkfriend but was summoned to Shayol Ghul and there the DO changed him from the inside out, creating a hound that could hunt Rand, Perrin, and Mat.  But the DO also imparted some sort of himself other than the ability to feel the ta'veren to Fain, whether he meant to or not.  Then when Fain went to SL, he was caught by the fog and although he should have died, he didn't.  SL fought the DO in Fain (because if you remember, even though Mordeth is evil, he still hates the DO and therefore his power is separate from the DO's power), and even though Mordeth couldn't defeat the DO he lessened the DO's influence on Fain and melded with Fain.  Fain can summon the fog of SL and is much stronger in many ways than a normal man.  The full extent of his power hasn't been revealed, but we know he can ignore the DO's commands at will.  He is a free agent with incredible power. 

 

All that to say, the change in Fain wasn't the dagger, he got hold of the dagger after he was attacked by the fog in SL.  The only reason Fain went for the dagger is because Mordeth is a part of him and the dagger was part of Mordeth's collection.  Fain didn't need the dagger, he just wanted it because it was a part of him, in the book it says he felt complete once he got the dagger.  The dagger itself has no effect on Fain, Mordeth is already a part of him.  So, your argument that any changes in Fain are because of the dagger is wrong.  Fain also shows no sign of having a special amount of luck, unlike Mat.  Technically they both were touched by Mordeth, so if Mat's luck comes from Mordeth, then Fain should have the same luck (especially because Mordeth has more of an effect on Fain than on Mat). 

 

It just doesn't make sense to me that Mat's luck comes from the dagger.  There is nothing that suggests Mordeth has more luck than any other man, he was just evil and a good talker...like Wormtongue  :)  Mat's luck has to come from within himself, something unique to him, like you suggested.  But his luck wouldn't have anything to do with the dagger.  Each of the three ta'veren have an extra addition to themselves besides being ta'veren.  Rand can channel, Perrin is a Wolfbrother, and Mat is lucky...extremely lucky.  Maybe being ta'veren enhances each of their traits, but each of them belongs to themselves.  As the story and each book progresses, Rand, Perrin, and Mat's additional traits also progress.  You could argue that each trait has nothing to do with the other, but as the story goes forward, each trait progresses and grows stronger as Rand, Perrin, and Mat each grow stronger.

 

Also, Rand didn't channel until after being in SL, and Perrin didn't start to change into a Wolfbrother until after SL, so the argument could be made that SL affected them too.  They all 3 messed with the treasure.  Mat was obviously affected the most because he took something.  But (i'm about to make an absurd argument for the proof that the dagger didn't give mat his luck), by touching the treasure Mat and Perrin were influenced by SL and they got the powers of luck and wolfbrother.  Rand's channeling came from him being the DR, not from SL, so he doesn't count.  Since you argue that Mat's luck came from SL, then Perrin's wolfiness should have come from there too.  You might argue that Mat taking the dagger out of SL gave him the power, but that wouldn't work because all it did was almost kill him.  Perrin and Mat both messed with treasure.  It doesn't make sense to say Mat's luck was from the dagger.

 

Also, I would assume that you aren't a Ta'veren from the cradle, as you mature you come into being a Ta'veren.  The story begins when Perrin, Rand, and Mat were around the ages of 18-20, the age where manhood and maturation begin.  They could have exhibited ta'veren stuff at that point because that's when it started it's exhibition in them.  Also, Moraine knew they were ta'veren before anything ever happened in them to point it out.  Sure little things happened all through their life up until TEOTW such as them surviving diseases or other things in their childhood, but the major stuff didn't start happening until they hit their manhood.  It makes sense to say that as they mature, so does the ta'veren within them.  So you can't make the argument that Rand, Mat, and Perrin weren't always Ta'veren. 

 

Also, what evidence do you have that says that they won't be ta'veren the rest of their lives?  I've never heard of that, but I could be wrong.

 

sorry it's such a long post...I had a lot to say

 

Mat's luck is his own and grows as he grows.  The dagger had nothing to do with it.

[Jessica]

I'm surprised there is still debate about Matt's luck.  From TDR Matt thinks it is from the combination of the dagger and the healing.  I would have thought that would have ended the debate.  I don't think comparing Matt to Fain is fair either.  Fain is such an odd mix of weird things that changed him, it's hard to compare.  Plus Fain may have received some luck from the dagger, but Fain was not healed from the dagger, so he did not turn out like Matt.

 

Also the first time Rand Channels, is when he gives Bela extra strength as they are fleeing the Two Rivers, before SL.  The three boy were not always Ta'veren.  RJ said in the Glimmer Q&A that they became Ta'veren shortly before Moiraine arrived in the Two Rivers.